Bayern Munich

[NewClaret]

Not mistakes it was ideological folly.

It will be interesting to see how he does just as it would be interesting to see how Pep would do if he had to manage Barnsley or Rotherham United.

Ultimately, his approach was inexplicable given the players he had and to write it off as a mistake or a learning process is clearly not true.

Ultimately, the tens of millions available to parachute clubs is a big factor in the success of relegated PL clubs. Scott Parker will likely achieve a third promotion with a relegated club but whether that infers managerial talent or simply reflects an Economic reality is equally as true in his situation as the spending power of elite clubs in Pep’s situation.

As Ancelotti proved with some very erratic signings at Everton perhaps elite managers talent lies not in management but in elite management in which case VK may well be a success.

He would have to change considerably to be able to do what a Ternent or Dyche did at Burnley.

Ideological dogma is not in the gift of managers who have to create a greater sum than the individual parts they have at their disposal.

Agree with pretty much all of that, apart from I do think inflexibility and poor selection decisions are signs of young, inexperienced managers. We knew what we were getting with him and I think had he stayed he’d have taken us up again and done things differently.

I do think though, some recognition needs to be given for his results in the second half of the season. Chelsea and United away as examples. We also started picking up points against the likes of Wolves, Brighton, Brentford - teams we’d need to be competitive against to ever re-establish ourselves. I think when you add in the Muric brain farts and some horrific VAR decisions, Kompany’s ideology with this team/budget was half a season off being okay. It was sort of scuppered by not playing Muric and strengthening in the wrong areas in the summer. Too little, too late.

I say this because I think fans just look at the season as a whole, when it’s more nuanced than that. I hope as a club we’ve not completely given up on being able to play attractive football if we do get back to the premier league.

Which means getting there first… so I also hope you’re right about Parker. I’ll feel more certain after this run of 8 games or so where I think we’ll face different challenges to those to date and we should also get to see a team that’s adopting his style (I’m not really sure what that is yet).

[NewClaret]

Responsible for bringing some of the prettiest football I’ve seen us play. Winning the league at deadwood is the stuff dreams are made of. But in all honesty, I’m happier with Scott Parker at the helm.

I agree with this point, some of the football was a joy to watch. It’s not the only way to play football but it was very pretty as you describe.

I even enjoyed some of our patterns and movement in the premier league, despite the results! Although know I was alone in that.

Despite that though, there’s also something that feels like Scott Parker is a better fit for us. I’m withholding judgement for a while but I’ve been impressed so far. Feel he’s kept a bedrock of a solid defence, but the next step is going to be breaking teams down that sit back more. Fingers crossed he passes that test in the way he’s passed navigating the opening games and ‘dynamics’.

[Colburn_Claret]

Agree with pretty much all of that, apart from I do think inflexibility and poor selection decisions are signs of young, inexperienced managers. We knew what we were getting with him and I think had he stayed he’d have taken us up again and done things differently.

I do think though, some recognition needs to be given for his results in the second half of the season. Chelsea and United away as examples. We also started picking up points against the likes of Wolves, Brighton, Brentford - teams we’d need to be competitive against to ever re-establish ourselves. I think when you add in the Muric brain farts and some horrific VAR decisions, Kompany’s ideology with this team/budget was half a season off being okay. It was sort of scuppered by not playing Muric and strengthening in the wrong areas in the summer. Too little, too late.

I say this because I think fans just look at the season as a whole, when it’s more nuanced than that. I hope as a club we’ve not completely given up on being able to play attractive football if we do get back to the premier league.

Which means getting there first… so I also hope you’re right about Parker. I’ll feel more certain after this run of 8 games or so where I think we’ll face different challenges to those to date and we should also get to see a team that’s adopting his style (I’m not really sure what that is yet).

I think you are the one who is off key here.

You say it was a learning curve, it wasn't. It was just downright stubbornness. How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it. A simple call to play it as much as you can, but if there isn't an out pass, or you are being closed down, just get rid. Not rocket science, every fan was saying the same, every football pundit, on every football show tv or radio, was saying the same thing. Everybody, yet VK wouldn't change it, everyone is wrong, and he's right. That's why we went down. It's the most galling thing of all, that we had a squad capable of staying up comfortably last season, yet he blew it.
Just name one pundit who said he was doing the right thing.

VAR decisions and brain farts are out of our control, but we could have tweaked the style 1 pinch and made life so much more comfortable for ourselves.

When 999 people say black, and you say white, and you can't see that you're wrong. That isn't confidence or self belief, it's narcissism.

[NewClaret]

I think you are the one who is off key here.

You say it was a learning curve, it wasn't. It was just downright stubbornness. How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it. A simple call to play it as much as you can, but if there isn't an out pass, or you are being closed down, just get rid. Not rocket science, every fan was saying the same, every football pundit, on every football show tv or radio, was saying the same thing. Everybody, yet VK wouldn't change it, everyone is wrong, and he's right. That's why we went down. It's the most galling thing of all, that we had a squad capable of staying up comfortably last season, yet he blew it.
Just name one pundit who said he was doing the right thing.

VAR decisions and brain farts are out of our control, but we could have tweaked the style 1 pinch and made life so much more comfortable for ourselves.

When 999 people say black, and you say white, and you can't see that you're wrong. That isn't confidence or self belief, it's narcissism.

Okay, my slight disagreement here is I’d say it was our high line that caused more issues than playing it out, but I don’t want to get in to a debate about that point.

I’d agree he was stubborn, although I’m sure he would say what some feel is stubbornness was actually just his full belief in his methods, his system, his players.

Maybe that belief/stubbornness, call it what you will, is something all top managers have and need. You could make a very reasonable argument that Dyche was exactly the same in many ways and certainly the Everton fans are using that word to describe him now.

But my overall point was not that he delivered a good season. Overall it was awful. But results unquestionably improved after we signed Esteve, Assignon and reinstated Muric. We weren’t that far off being a decent side then, so I’m not sure his stubbornness that we could compete playing his style was so misplaced. Just that we couldn’t at the beginning with the players he bought and chose, which was his fault for not recognising.

Which is why I think he’ll go on to have a very good career, because he’ll now have very good and experienced players wherever he goes.

[Guller Bull]

Vinny is doing ever so well with them. Bravo I say.

[KRBFC]

I think you are the one who is off key here.

You say it was a learning curve, it wasn't. It was just downright stubbornness. How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it. A simple call to play it as much as you can, but if there isn't an out pass, or you are being closed down, just get rid. Not rocket science, every fan was saying the same, every football pundit, on every football show tv or radio, was saying the same thing. Everybody, yet VK wouldn't change it, everyone is wrong, and he's right. That's why we went down. It's the most galling thing of all, that we had a squad capable of staying up comfortably last season, yet he blew it.
Just name one pundit who said he was doing the right thing.

VAR decisions and brain farts are out of our control, but we could have tweaked the style 1 pinch and made life so much more comfortable for ourselves.

When 999 people say black, and you say white, and you can't see that you're wrong. That isn't confidence or self belief, it's narcissism.

As a manager the moment you panic and completely rip up the tactical foundation that made the team previously successful, you’re absolutely dead.

[Swizzlestick]

I think you are the one who is off key here.

You say it was a learning curve, it wasn't. It was just downright stubbornness. How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it. A simple call to play it as much as you can, but if there isn't an out pass, or you are being closed down, just get rid. Not rocket science, every fan was saying the same, every football pundit, on every football show tv or radio, was saying the same thing. Everybody, yet VK wouldn't change it, everyone is wrong, and he's right. That's why we went down. It's the most galling thing of all, that we had a squad capable of staying up comfortably last season, yet he blew it.
Just name one pundit who said he was doing the right thing.

VAR decisions and brain farts are out of our control, but we could have tweaked the style 1 pinch and made life so much more comfortable for ourselves.

When 999 people say black, and you say white, and you can't see that you're wrong. That isn't confidence or self belief, it's narcissism.

"How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it"

I'd be intrigued to know - was it that many? The Muric howlers against Everton and Brighton wasn't really overplaying, just Muric being Muric.

I actually thought, if anything, Kompany abandoned his preferred way of playing and we employed a sort of strange mish mash of tactics that didn't look well worked on, I would imagine through personnel changes and VK overthinking it. Take a look at our average possession stats as the season wore on, even in games like Luton at home. We were sub 50% on average for the season. As with the transfer policy and general team selection, the tactics appeared manic and ill thought through and I actually thought if we had actually stuck to how we were playing in the previous season we'd have actually had more joy. Obviously that means not jettisoning a lot of your key players from the season before.

[Colburn_Claret]

As a manager the moment you panic and completely rip up the tactical foundation that made the team previously successful, you’re absolutely dead.

Nobody wanted him to rip up the tactics, I loved his football that got us up. It was obvious we couldn't play it that well against better, faster, stronger players. A tweak was all it needed.

[Belial]

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/bayern ... 0a26ac1822

[NottsClaret]

Nobody wanted him to rip up the tactics, I loved his football that got us up. It was obvious we couldn't play it that well against better, faster, stronger players.

It's a good point that about the physicality. There was a warning there in the promotion season.. when we played City fair enough, but against a fairly average Man Utd side, we were brushed off too easily where it mattered. For all the amazing talent on show, you need to have some absolute units to compete in the Prem now, even the very best sides are moving that way.

[evensteadiereddie]

I agree with this point, some of the football was a joy to watch. It’s not the only way to play football but it was very pretty as you describe.

I even enjoyed some of our patterns and movement in the premier league, despite the results! Although know I was alone in that.

Despite that though, there’s also something that feels like Scott Parker is a better fit for us. I’m withholding judgement for a while but I’ve been impressed so far. Feel he’s kept a bedrock of a solid defence, but the next step is going to be breaking teams down that sit back more. Fingers crossed he passes that test in the way he’s passed navigating the opening games and ‘dynamics’.

We played some good stuff in the Premier League, taking a well deserved lead in quite a few games.
Unfortunately those potential three points were lost due to the pressure we placed ourselves under or better, stronger teams simply overpowered us .

[blatherwickstattoos]

I don’t want to see him fail. He gave us some incredible memories. You can’t turn down the job he got. Otherwise he’d still be with us and most probably top of league by now

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Do Bayern pass it around the back for 90% of the time. Looks like they dont going off the latest results, maybe hes learning.

[ChrisG]

Do Bayern pass it around the back for 90% of the time. Looks like they dont going off the latest results, maybe hes learning.

It's a bit easier to play like that when you've got Manuel Neuer in the sticks who practically invented the sweeper keeper role

[jrgbfc]

I hope he falls flat on his face the arrogant ****, if that makes me petty and small minded so be it

[KRBFC]

Nobody wanted him to rip up the tactics, I loved his football that got us up. It was obvious we couldn't play it that well against better, faster, stronger players. A tweak was all it needed.

We didn’t play the same way……. We didn’t even try which was the saddest thing for me.

Anyone who really believes we got relegated trying to play the same way as we did in the Championship is just listening to the pundits who kept saying it but clearly hadn’t watched us much in the Championship.

[KRBFC]

For a start the inverted right back role that Roberts played was not played all season.

Then we’d have a left back playing left wing with Cullen covering. Again we didn’t try it at all.

[KRBFC]

And I actually thought there was some excellent performances that didn’t warrant the points for various reasons.

Man United at home we were absolutely superb especially first half, they couldn’t cope with us.

West Ham at home we were brilliant for 86 minutes and the pressure got to us. Mentally we collapsed.

Crystal Palace at home, we absolutely peltered them after going 1 down, we had about 75% possession with 18 corner kicks.

The problem for me was the recruitment, the left back was crucial to how we played, yet we didn’t sign one to replace Maatsen. Secondly we spent half the season with Jay Rodriguez as our first choice striker.

[Silkyskills1]

Did Jay Rodriguez not play in any of the three games you refer to? Appears to back your agenda if he didn't. However, if he did .......

[CoolClaret]

"How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it"

I'd be intrigued to know - was it that many? The Muric howlers against Everton and Brighton wasn't really overplaying, just Muric being Muric.

Not really. The more you play with risks, the greater the chance of conceding from those risks.

I just think pick and choose moments - we didn't and were too rigid, the players weren't playing off instinct and when caught in two minds we got punished.

We had similar errors throughout the season, they just didn't look as apparent/'bad' as the Muric ones you listed but it's from the same underlying issue - off the top of my head Spurs at home robbed multiple times (ponderous pass out to fullback that was instantly dispossessed), Wolves away (same slow play, eventually ball given up between O'Shea-Berge), United away (Berge dwelling on the ball caught in two minds)

[JR1882]

We didn’t stick to the football that got us up, nor did we try & become harder to beat.

We just existed in some tactical netherworld, no style of play at all and as such, no success. Enjoyed seasons more at the bottom of League One than last season tbh.

Auf Gehts Dortmund!

[NewClaret]

We played some good stuff in the Premier League, taking a well deserved lead in quite a few games.
Unfortunately those potential three points were lost due to the pressure we placed ourselves under or better, stronger teams simply overpowered us .

Yep, I think I read somewhere that we lost 28 points from winning positions or something crazy.

There were loads of moments in the premier league where Kompany had us playing some great stuff which gets hugely overlooked in retrospect because we didn’t get results which is all anyone cares about (understandable, but I think it distorts the narrative).

Ironically, we’d have been BATTERED if we were playing a premier league team on Saturday, but that type of performance (go 1 up, go deep & narrow, shut up shop) was exactly what we needed to do more of last season.

[Gaia]

Kompany accused of a lack of communication
Squad selection seems perplexing to many seniors
Players want more clarity from the manager
Article continues below

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/bayern ... 9260f9dca0

[Bordeauxclaret]

Kompany accused of a lack of communication
Squad selection seems perplexing to many seniors
Players want more clarity from the manager
Article continues below

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/bayern ... 9260f9dca0

I hope it’s more reliable than the Bellamy rumour.

[CoolClaret]

Yep, I think I read somewhere that we lost 28 points from winning positions or something crazy.

There were loads of moments in the premier league where Kompany had us playing some great stuff which gets hugely overlooked in retrospect because we didn’t get results which is all anyone cares about (understandable, but I think it distorts the narrative).

Ironically, we’d have been BATTERED if we were playing a premier league team on Saturday, but that type of performance (go 1 up, go deep & narrow, shut up shop) was exactly what we needed to do more of last season.

That stat would be relevant if it was leads going into the 80th minute or something... scoring first early on with an expansive style then ultimately getting battered means nothing, nor does 10 or 20 minute spells of 'good football' here and there.

To win games in the Premier League you need to have a 90 minute performance, and we never really managed that.

[willsclarets]

I actually think it was recruitment and selection that killed our season in the Premier League, not our tactics. Our squad was horribly imbalanced, and we lost two very key players to the system. Maatsen and Tella. Maatsen was never a goer, but we put all our eggs in that basket. His passing, movement and pace on the break was sorely missed. Will always love Charlie, but he wasnt right for a VK team. Tella i still believe we could've signed, and we desperately missed someone stretching the pitch. We also didn't replace Barnes in terms of his profile. We had no physicality.

I'm not a critic of Trafford, I just think he was too young. And Muric was a key part of our Championship success. Stripping him of the shirt was an error.

Even if you fix those few things, I think we stay up. He got relegated the summer before we kicked a ball imo

[equinox]

Another five yesterday for the Munich machine driven by the master, Vincent Kompany.

[AlargeClaret]

If BM aren’t smashing much of the Bundesliga , and the comedy teams in the Champs league , there would be questions asked. They’re a European “ top 6 superclub” and VK will need at least a BL title and and CL QF to satisfy the fans .

[IanMcL]

As a manager the moment you panic and completely rip up the tactical foundation that made the team previously successful, you’re absolutely dead.

The moment you trip up the team you have coached, to know that system, in favour of players who have just arrived, then you are buried.

In his own words, 12 matches, before they get it. 12/38 dead and buried is a built in certainty, in the Prem.

[MT03ALG]

Auf Gehts Dortmund!
[/quote]

BVB not too good yesterday

[Foshiznik]

Just to put it into context, Bayern's bench yesterday was:

Daniel Peretz (GK)
Eric Dier
Raphael Guerreiro
Joao Palhinha
Leon Goretzka
Mathys Tel
Leroy Sane
Thomas Muller
Serge Gnabry

If they aren't dominating then something would have to be seriously wrong.

[Vincent'sCap]

Vincent one hell of a manager.

[Cooclaret]

He’s gone, why are you all still debating?

The clubs better off without him anywhere near it.

[Swizzlestick]

Just to put it into context, Bayern's bench yesterday was:

Daniel Peretz (GK)
Eric Dier
Raphael Guerreiro
Joao Palhinha
Leon Goretzka
Mathys Tel
Leroy Sane
Thomas Muller
Serge Gnabry

If they aren't dominating then something would have to be seriously wrong.

Tuchel couldn’t do the business with a similarly high quality squad tbf.

Long way to go but I do think he’ll win the title this year. Second year will be the more interesting one.

[MT03ALG]

Vincent has started to complain about the number of games the players have to pay

[Lip]

Vincent has started to complain about the number of games the players have to pay

Pay what ?

[JR1882]

"How many goals did we concede, how many games and points lost, because we gave the ball away on the edge of our own area by overplaying it"

I'd be intrigued to know - was it that many? The Muric howlers against Everton and Brighton wasn't really overplaying, just Muric being Muric.

I actually thought, if anything, Kompany abandoned his preferred way of playing and we employed a sort of strange mish mash of tactics that didn't look well worked on, I would imagine through personnel changes and VK overthinking it. Take a look at our average possession stats as the season wore on, even in games like Luton at home. We were sub 50% on average for the season. As with the transfer policy and general team selection, the tactics appeared manic and ill thought through and I actually thought if we had actually stuck to how we were playing in the previous season we'd have actually had more joy. Obviously that means not jettisoning a lot of your key players from the season before.

Agree with this & im fed up of pundits saying we overplayed possession football last season, there was zero identity, zero style, just stubbornness & inflexibility and it was absolutely dire to watch.

Bayerns a different ballgame as they have the players to play his “preferred” style, it’s all rosy after 3 games however at the first sign of it not working out he will be gone, that boardroom is a whose who of Bayern mafia & he won’t pull the wool over their eyes like with Alan.

Big game coming against Bayer, there isn’t much contest apart from them, amazed if a young Leipzig can push so hard & BVB look to be in a (slightly) transitional phase.

[evensteadiereddie]

He'll be a winner at Bayern without doubt whether you like it or not.

[Firthy]

He'll be a winner at Bayern without doubt whether you like it or not.

So does that prove it's down to money and having better players?

Does it make Dyche a better manager than VK because he had more success than VK with a lot less money available?

[NewClaret]

So does that prove it's down to money and having better players?

Does it make Dyche a better manager than VK because he had more success than VK with a lot less money available?

Does it really matter? Both have left.

Kompany because he got an excellent offer any manager would have taken (including Dyche) - one that netted us £10 million and potentially up to £15m if he’s a success - and Dyche after bringing us success but probably running its course for a variety of reasons.

Dyche also took us down in his first premier league season, but their respective tenures make them impossible to compare anyway.

I wish them both well. Bayern more so than Everton though because of the ££ in it for BFC.

Completely incomparable situations.

[evensteadiereddie]

So does that prove it's down to money and having better players?

Does it make Dyche a better manager than VK because he had more success than VK with a lot less money available?

In answer to the first question, generally speaking, yes but the coaching ability and man management have to be there too.

The second question? It depends how you define "a better manager".
Dyche was very good at devising a survival strategy on the cheap that worked brilliantly for several years but wasn't sustainable.
That's not to say, given the money, he would have gone on to actually enable the squad to flourish, Forest or Villa style.
Kompany came in, drafted in some fabulous young players and we stormed the Championship and we faced the PL totally unprepared and somewhat naively although we did, to his and the squad's credit, find ourselves in front on quite a few occasions. However, due to mistakes and overall weakness, we lost many too many points from those winning positions to survive. We weren't far off as it turned out.

[Quicknick]

In answer to the first question, generally speaking, yes but the coaching ability and man management have to be there too.

The second question? It depends how you define "a better manager".
Dyche was very good at devising a survival strategy on the cheap that worked brilliantly for several years but wasn't sustainable.
That's not to say, given the money, he would have gone on to actually enable the squad to flourish, Forest or Villa style.
Kompany came in, drafted in some fabulous young players and we stormed the Championship and we faced the PL totally unprepared and somewhat naively although we did, to his and the squad's credit, find ourselves in front on quite a few occasions. However, due to mistakes and overall weakness, we lost many too many points from those winning positions to survive. We weren't far off as it turned out.

The points lost from winning positions were down to tactical mistakes, largely.

[CoolClaret]

Tuchel couldn’t do the business with a similarly high quality squad tbf.

Long way to go but I do think he’ll win the title this year. Second year will be the more interesting one.

Tuchel won the title with Bayern in the 22-23 season.

[Big Vinny K]

We were a million miles away last season.
We may have gone ahead in certain games but how many of them did we genuinely look like keeping hold of the lead ?
Tactically speaking VK was schooled by so many other managers in the league who very quickly saw our weaknesses and punished us time and time again.
At the same time as other managers were quickly working us out during the games VK was very slow in countering this during the game or in subsequent games. His use of his substitutes was pretty atrocious all season and for most of the season many fans were scratching their heads when the team sheets were announced.

Bayern have started well for sure but we are talking about a club that dwarf every other club in the league with their financial resources. They were embarrassed last season with the way Bayer Lev won the league at a canter. This season it’s likely to return back to the norm partly because that is what usually happens and partly because Bayer Lev also have the champions league to deal with.

Not sure what yardstick yeh powers that be will measure VK on - winning the league is not enough for them (it might be for this year given what happened last season) but beyond this they will expect a good champions league performance and signs that they are getting back to be in the top 3 or 4 clubs in Europe. This is what a club the size of Bayern Munich expect and they don’t expect to wait years for it.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Tuchel won the title with Bayern in the 22-23 season.

Didn't Bayern appoint Tuchel almost at the end of the 22-23 season ?

[Bordeauxclaret]

Didn't Bayern appoint Tuchel almost at the end of the 22-23 season ?

Yes, 24th March. Won it on the last day after Dortmund could only manage a draw.

[Swizzlestick]

Tuchel won the title with Bayern in the 22-23 season.

Hired with a couple of months to go and well in contention. He had a high quality squad the next season, including £80m on Kane, and failed. Don't think it changes my original point - you can have a world class coach like Tuchel and it doesn't necessarily follow that you're going to dominate.

[CoolClaret]

Yes, 24th March. Won it on the last day after Dortmund could only manage a draw.

Importantly he beat Dortmund in his first game (tie earlier in the year).

Hired with a couple of months to go and well in contention. He had a high quality squad the next season, including £80m on Kane, and failed. Don't think it changes my original point - you can have a world class coach like Tuchel and it doesn't necessarily follow that you're going to dominate.

I thought he was appointed earlier tbf.

I somewhat agree. Bayern Munich has been in a bit of transition for the past 5 years or so after a decade-plus of pure dominance (11 title wins in a row!), and it's been on Flick, Naggelsman, Tuchel and now VK to facilitate that transition.

If VK manages to win the title, then, of course, it will be a good achievement. Let's see how he fares against other title contenders.

I think VK is great when it's smooth sailing, I just think his egotistical nature and blame defection won't hold up when the going gets tough... It will certainly be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[Devils_Advocate]

Importantly he beat Dortmund in his first game (tie earlier in the year).



I thought he was appointed earlier tbf.

I somewhat agree. Bayern Munich has been in a bit of transition for the past 5 years or so after a decade-plus of pure dominance (11 title wins in a row!), and it's been on Flick, Naggelsman, Tuchel and now VK to facilitate that transition.

If VK manages to win the title, then, of course, it will be a good achievement. Let's see how he fares against other title contenders.

I think VK is great when it's smooth sailing, I just think his egotistical nature and blame defection won't hold up when the going gets tough... It will certainly be interesting to see how it all plays out.

He’s gone, why are you all still debating?

[Poulton-le-Claret]

The Champions League final this season is being hosted in Munich. There is a lot of noise about them being desperate to make the final and win the tournament on home soil. VK will judged more harshly than any other year, by the fans and the Bayern hierarchy, based on their CL performances this season.