Winning without playing that well

[claretspice]

Just for perspective let's have a look back to autumn 2022.

Luton - 1-1, relatively few chances, bailed out by Brownhill from range.

Hull 1-1, created very little other than one well crafted counter attacking goal and might have lost.

Blackpool - 3-3 and ended up hanging on against a team that were relegated.

Millwall - 2-0 but struggled for an hour - Sky's match report states "against a rugged Millwall defence it had started to look like they would fail to build on an emphatic 5-1 win at Wigan".

Bristol City - 2-1 but described by Sky as hard fought, before observing, "until Rodiguez's winner, it had been a familiar story for Vincent Kompany's team as they dominated possession but found it hard to build on Manuel Benson's early goal".

Stoke - 1-1 and Sky summarised as "the visitors were resilient in defence and limited their hosts to shots from long range".

We then beat Swansea 4-0 but then beat Norwich 1-0 from a penalty, Reading 2-1 from behind thanks to two late goals before beating Rovers 3-0 in a game we hadn't created too much in before Barnes put us ahead on the hour. So in those 10 home games up to the World Cup break, we were only really fluent as an attacking force once, perhaps twice (and both against teams that did not employ a low block).

None of this is to say that just because we clicked that season, we will this. Nor am I suggesting that at this stage we have a much of an identity as we did then - it is fair to say the signs of what Kompany was trying to do was more obvious against Blackpool 2 years ago than Portsmouth yesterday. But it does show that we went through similar growing pains in integrating a brand new team then - and despite Kompany having a far more settled pre season (over 5 weeks together by the time of the Blackpool game with the vast majority together 7 weeks, so more double Parker's time with this team) and Kompany having a core of new recruits (Muric, THB, Cullen) who understood Kompany’s system exactly from previous clubs, and not having to contend with injuries at centre back, right back and holding midfield (critical positions if you are playing from deep) disrupting both matches and training time.

If we're still as toothless and stilted as we were yesterday in 2 months, then there'll be cause for concern. But in context, it is miles too early. Yes yesterday was unconvincing. But that can be true at the same time it is true that Parker is still desperately short of training time with this team.

[PremierLeagueClass]

We were crying out for Worrall or Esteve to carry the ball into midfield today and start unsettling their lines. There were loads of opportunities to do it, but we didn’t take them.

I don’t know if it’s a tactical decision or lack of confidence, but it has to be a better option occasionally than yet another sideways pass.

I said the same thing to my mate at the match. Beyer would have made a huge difference.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Not his biggest fan but I think that Roberts would have also made a difference yesterday going forward.

[criminalclaret]

Excellent post claretspice

Get that attack sorted and we'll be laughing. As an earlier poster said, you know what VK was trying to do in those early games even if the execution wasn't there yet.

Parker needs probably more time before we see what his plan is and how he sets up against different opposition. He is a much more pragmatic manager and something we also have to get used to. UTC

[HurstGrangeClaret]

I cannot believe the negativity from some posters on this board. The team have played three games together since the end of the transfer window and gained seven points.
Yes the performances haven’t been great but they are finding ways to win. SP needs time to assess the strengths and weaknesses of the squad and maybe then we will see improvements in performance.
In the meantime, we are doing more than hanging in there. As we all know, this is a difficult league. SP has been in this position before. Give him and the team some time.

[daveisaclaret]

I don't really find it convincing that what we're seeing is growing pains. Parker has been managing for 5 years and this is what he has done that whole time. Everybody wants it to develop into something better but I think there is some conflation here of the desire for it to happen and belief that it actually will.

[NL Claret]

Think back to the time we were promoted under SD, posters were probably calling for Dyche to be sacked on Boxing Day.

The championship is one long tough season , we are 6 games in. Patience is required.

[RVclaret]

I don't really find it convincing that what we're seeing is growing pains. Parker has been managing for 5 years and this is what he has done that whole time. Everybody wants it to develop into something better but I think there is some conflation here of the desire for it to happen and belief that it actually will.

So it’s your belief a new team, one without a pre season, with injuries and suspensions to key players, won’t improve over time? Interesting view but one that doesn’t seem very well put together.

As for ‘what he’s done the whole time’, his Bournemouth team created double the quality/quantity of chances we are currently doing so your argument seems quite flawed there.

[daveisaclaret]

So it’s your belief a new team, one without a pre season, with injuries and suspensions to key players, won’t improve over time? Interesting view but one that doesn’t seem very well put together.

As for ‘what he’s done the whole time’, his Bournemouth team created double the quality/quantity of chances we are currently doing so your argument seems quite flawed there.

What is the point in making something up and saying it's my belief?

His Bournemouth team had Solanke up front, his Fulham team had Mitrovic, it's no surprise they found it easier to create chances playing like this.

[RVclaret]

What is the point in making something up and saying it's my belief?

His Bournemouth team had Solanke up front, his Fulham team had Mitrovic, it's no surprise they found it easier to create chances playing like this.

Your post seemed to imply it won’t get better, or at least challenged the belief it will.

Yep and Bournemouth also had a settled pre-season and squad that had played together for over 18 months. That counts for something.

As you mentioned Solanke, he hadn’t delivered at all until that season, and credits Parker for his development.

[taio]

I don't really find it convincing that what we're seeing is growing pains. Parker has been managing for 5 years and this is what he has done that whole time. Everybody wants it to develop into something better but I think there is some conflation here of the desire for it to happen and belief that it actually will.

I've spoken to many supporters who believe that performances will improve once the manager and squad has had longer to settle. There are, of course, some people who don't think that will happen. Either way, the manager and players deserve time and supporters' patience while we find out.

[daveisaclaret]

Your post seemed to imply it won’t get better, or at least challenged the belief it will.

Yep and Bournemouth also had a settled pre-season and squad that had played together for over 18 months. That counts for something.

As you mentioned Solanke, he hadn’t delivered at all until that season, and credits Parker for his development.

It's fair to say I'm challenging the belief it will. It might. I think we're seeing on the pitch who Parker is as a manager. There's room for improvement within it but generally we seem to me like we will be a not great team that gets by on the quality of individuals we have.

Solanke hadn't delivered until that season? 15 goals in the Championship the season before seems pretty good to me and I'll certainly be thinking any of our strikers have delivered if they manage it this season.

[houseboy]

Can't tell if you are intentionally missing the point but il entertain you anyway. Clearly we won't continue at this rate with the way we are playing currently.
It's too early to look at points totals but hopefully we can stay in and around it whilst we establish a style of play and possibly get some improvements in January

You seem to have an agenda bud. I take it you were disappointed with the choice of new manager? What you seem to be absolutely missing is the fact that we are blending a host of new players who didn’t know each others first names a month or so ago. Despite that we are getting results and are currently lying third in the league. The real probability is we will only get better as time goes on and that is what we should be concentrating on, not criticising for the sake of it. FFS what you be like if you supported Luton?

[pushpinpussy]

You seem to have an agenda bud. I take it you were disappointed with the choice of new manager? What you seem to be absolutely missing is the fact that we are blending a host of new players who didn’t know each others first names a month or so ago. Despite that we are getting results and are currently lying third in the league. The real probability is we will only get better as time goes on and that is what we should be concentrating on, not criticising for the sake of it. FFS what you be like if you supported Luton?

This in a nutshell. People are expecting miracles so early into the season with a new set of players and system. Keep it up. Most Burnley fans with a brain understand what is happening.

[Goliath]

You seem to have an agenda bud. I take it you were disappointed with the choice of new manager? What you seem to be absolutely missing is the fact that we are blending a host of new players who didn’t know each others first names a month or so ago. Despite that we are getting results and are currently lying third in the league. The real probability is we will only get better as time goes on and that is what we should be concentrating on, not criticising for the sake of it. FFS what you be like if you supported Luton?

Not particularly I'm quite happy with Parker. He carries himself well. I'm just commenting on what we've seen on the pitch, it's nothing to do with agendas.

In our last 3 games we've not played well in any of them imo, I'm not counting anything prior to that because it was basically a different squad. That can't realistically continue or we will start dropping points.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Not particularly I'm quite happy with Parker. He carries himself well. I'm just commenting on what we've seen on the pitch, it's nothing to do with agendas.

In our last 3 games we've not played well in any of them imo, I'm not counting anything prior to that because it was basically a different squad. That can't realistically continue or we will start dropping points.

Our last three games, when we haven’t played well, we’ve gained seven points.
Your logic reads as though they aren’t going to improve. The three games in question are the first ones the current squad have played in together.
Why the negativity? Give them time FFS!!!

[Goliath]

Our last three games, when we haven’t played well, we’ve gained seven points.
Your logic reads as though they aren’t going to improve. The three games in question are the first ones the current squad have played in together.
Why the negativity? Give them time FFS!!!

Why do people make false conclusions on here to make out that I'm being far more negative then I am. At no point have I said we won't improve, I've just said we need to because these results are unsustainable if we don't.

[Mattster]

Leeds made millions of chances against them.

As did Boro.

[Mattster]

You seem to have an agenda bud. I take it you were disappointed with the choice of new manager? What you seem to be absolutely missing is the fact that we are blending a host of new players who didn’t know each others first names a month or so ago. Despite that we are getting results and are currently lying third in the league. The real probability is we will only get better as time goes on and that is what we should be concentrating on, not criticising for the sake of it. FFS what you be like if you supported Luton?

8 of the starting 11 yesterday have been with us since before the start of the season (only Anthony, Hannibal and Worrall joined after the start). Sure, they often build up play like it's the first time they've played together but it's not the case. I would say that 3 new players in the starting 11 is not exactly out of the ordinary for any club at this level at this stage of the season. Hell, everyone harps on about the Luton performance when they had 3 teenagers making the first ever league starts of their careers in that game. We're not the only team that has made changes to it's squad - there's only so long it can be used as an excuse for being so disjointed.

[TsarBomba]

8 of the starting 11 yesterday have been with us since before the start of the season (only Anthony, Hannibal and Worrall joined after the start). Sure, they often build up play like it's the first time they've played together but it's not the case. I would say that 3 new players in the starting 11 is not exactly out of the ordinary for any club at this level at this stage of the season. Hell, everyone harps on about the Luton performance when they had 3 teenagers making the first ever league starts of their careers in that game. We're not the only team that has made changes to it's squad - there's only so long it can be used as an excuse for being so disjointed.

Over the summer we had to contend with-

-relegation
-new manager
-15 players in
-20 players out

Name me another club this season, nay ever, that has had to deal with that level of upheaval in one go. There isn’t one.

Yes, there is only so long excuses can be made for disjointed performances, but it’s not after 6 games, and I think you know that, but for whatever reason you’re willing to die on this hill.

[Mattster]

Over the summer we had to contend with-

-relegation
-new manager
-15 players in
-20 players out

Name me another club this season, nay ever, that has had to deal with that level of upheaval in one go. There isn’t one.

Yes, there is only so long excuses can be made for disjointed performances, but it’s not after 6 games, and I think you know that, but for whatever reason you’re willing to die on this hill.

You're giving the total figures which aren't really a true reflection. For example, of those 20 out, just over half were actually part of the squad that finished the season. Of those, Parker never worked with half of them (Assignon, JBL, Muric, Al Dakhil, Taylor). So in terms of turnover that effected Parker, we're talking 5 or 6 players out (depending on whether you count JBG) and Amdouni was out of most of it on leave following the Euros too.

None of that changes the fact that 8 of our starting 11 yesterday were with us throughout Parker's preseason. Is that out of the ordinary? Also worth noting that 7 of the 11 yesterday started against Luton. If not for Roberts' injury it would have been 8.

[Boss Hogg]

Think some people are expecting too much. I think we’ll improve.

[TsarBomba]

You're giving the total figures which aren't really a true reflection. For example, of those 20 out, just over half were actually part of the squad that finished the season. Of those, Parker never worked with half of them (Assignon, JBL, Muric, Al Dakhil, Taylor). So in terms of turnover that effected Parker, we're talking 5 or 6 players out (depending on whether you count JBG) and Amdouni was out of most of it on leave following the Euros too.

None of that changes the fact that 8 of our starting 11 yesterday were with us throughout Parker's preseason. Is that out of the ordinary? Also worth noting that 7 of the 11 yesterday started against Luton. If not for Roberts' injury it would have been 8.

You’re making things up now.

We returned to pre-season training on the 24th June.

Parker was hired on the 5th July.

We’d only lost 2 players by that point- Cork and Taylor.

We lost 18 players from when Parker came in- Muric, Vigouroux, Twine, Odobert, Zaroury, Berge, O’Shea, Al-Dakhil, Weghorst, McNally, Vitinho, Costelloe, Amdouni, Obafemi, Mellon, Churlinov, Westley, JBG. Not including JBL and Assignon.

We played Luton on the 12th August.

And of those 18 we lost since Parker came in, 13 were after the season had already started.

So to say that there was only 5/6 players which ‘affected’ Parker is completely untrue, isn’t it.

[dvalley69]

Not particularly I'm quite happy with Parker. He carries himself well. I'm just commenting on what we've seen on the pitch, it's nothing to do with agendas.

In our last 3 games we've not played well in any of them imo, I'm not counting anything prior to that because it was basically a different squad. That can't realistically continue or we will start dropping points.

hahah, Goliath predicts us to drop points! You do realise we WILL drop points ANYWAY as no team ever in the history of football has a 100% record!

[Mattster]

You’re making things up now.

We returned to pre-season training on the 24th June.

Parker was hired on the 5th July.

We’d only lost 2 players by that point- Cork and Taylor.

We lost 18 players from when Parker came in- Muric, Vigouroux, Twine, Odobert, Zaroury, Berge, O’Shea, Al-Dakhil, Weghorst, McNally, Vitinho, Costelloe, Amdouni, Obafemi, Mellon, Churlinov, Westley, JBG. Not including JBL and Assignon.

We played Luton on the 12th August.

And of those 18 we lost since Parker came in, 13 were after the season had already started.

So to say that there was only 5/6 players which ‘affected’ Parker is completely untrue, isn’t it.

Costelloe, Westley and Mellon? Really?
Amdouni and Weghorst missed majority of preseason away on leave following the Euros. Weghorst always off.
Muric never returned to training.
Al-Dakhil injured, won't have done anything beyond fitness work
Vigoroux was 3rd keeper, big whoop
Berge injured most of preseason and beyond, never featured.
Churlinov, Obafemi, Twine, Zaroury, McNally weren't with us last season anyway. Would have been squad players (if that, in some cases) for preseason and always apparently destined to be sold. You missed Bastien and Peacock-Farrell off that bit, but same for them.

And as mentioned Parker will never have met JBL or Assignon, let alone worked with them.

Actual players that will have been core during preseason are O'Shea, Odobert and Vitinho (also the 3 changes from the game against Luton to Portsmouth). Probably planned for Berge. Then JBG, Twine, Zaroury and McNally could be argued for but 3 of those always seemed destined to be leaving and all were bench options if not. Taking to a max of 8. Which is nothing like the 20 headline figure.

[quoonbeatz]

Have to say I’m really not that arsed about patterns of play after 6 games, especially when the pattern of points is 13/18.

[louieollie]

Far too much analysis early doors from the resident "managers", the need to be seen as a statistical/analytical genius is very, very tedious.

Football is a very simple game ............FFS! Just try to enjoy it 🫣

[Colburn_Claret]

Brownhill in his post match spoke of the style of play, and how we have to be patient. He also said the players can feel the frustration of the crowd, and it's difficult.
We have to stay together, if only for the sake of the team on the pitch, SP has mentioned how important the part fans play in this is. If we let them down, we let ourselves down.

I was as frustrated as any on Saturday, especially first half, but thinking about it, it's not the style as much as the tempo that's failing us. To break teams down we need to get the ball in behind quickly, whether that's over the top, through the channels or 3 quick passes doesn't matter, but knocking the ball side to side, at the pace that we move the ball, isn't conducive to opening gaps.

[Woodleyclaret]

Spot on we need to get the ball up wide quicker. Both of Steve and Joe were guilty of sideways ponderous passes.We are capable of beating everyone but need pace against anti football teams

[AfloatinClaret]

Having run up two big scores to start the season ALL the opposing clubs are and will continue to pack their defences to make sure that they're not next.
Comments on here are reminiscent of those often made on opposition fan forums during our days in the Premiership; complaining that their far superior/more expensive sides weren't rolling little old Burnley.
Unless you're Man City, scoring goals against a packed and well organised defence is bloody difficult, so any win is a good one.
From time to time sides will cock up, allow us to score early and thereafter chase the game; when that happens we'll once again score a bucket full, but for the most part we'll be grinding out wins against teams who'd be overjoyed with a draw.

[Dark Cloud]

It's so easy to look at Kompany's first season "overall" because because eventually we just became a winning machine which dominated match after match. That belies the fact (as highlighted by Claretspice) that for the first 2 months or more we had some pretty ropey performances and results and were actually quite lucky at times. The hope is that this season ultimately pans out in the same way, because atm there certainly appears plenty of parallels. During those early months of Kompany's tenure I remember saying "this could go either way". Either we'll start clicking and winning games or our luck will desert us and we start losing because we're not quite good enough. The former turned out to be the case and that makes me far more hopeful for this season.

[Burnley Ace]

Unless you're Man City, scoring goals against a packed and well organised defence is bloody difficult, so any win is a good one.

As we saw on Sunday even they have trouble when the opposition have everyone defending in their own area. Just putting endless crosses into the box is just “meat and drink” for big defenders.

[NottsClaret]

We're not working towards anything, there's no masterplan about to become clear. We're exactly where Parker likes his teams to be at this level. Slightly better at winning than the other team and picking up points. We're averaging over 2 points a game, he won't be looking to change anything while that continues, and that's fair enough.

[Anonymous Claret]

I agree but in hindsight we could see the patterns of play established from day one. As we could under Dyche with the Paterson goal against Wolves if I remember rightly.

At the moment I genuinely don't have a clue what we are trying to be. I understand the idea of variety being an big strength but surely there should be some principles set in stone for each game. Otherwise we will just resort to lumping it and giving the ball away in games where we come under pressure. As we did against Leeds.

See Claretspice's post at the top of Page 3. He explains it far better than me and it saves me having to type out my reasoning

[NewClaret]

Your post seemed to imply it won’t get better, or at least challenged the belief it will.

Yep and Bournemouth also had a settled pre-season and squad that had played together for over 18 months. That counts for something.

As you mentioned Solanke, he hadn’t delivered at all until that season, and credits Parker for his development.

I agree with all you’re saying, by the way, but your last point is a bit of a disappointment (so far, accept he’s only had Foster for 5 games).

Parker’s record with strikers is very good so I was expecting to see big changes in Fosters game, but he hasn’t really looked any different. Hopefully the next run of games see him tweak it.

[NewClaret]

FFS what you be like if you supported Luton?

Just seen that they only scraped a home win at the weekend after a red card against Sheffield Wednesday.

Incredible that at some points last year there were fans saying what a better manager Edwards is to Kompany and he’s now at Bayern managing Champions League games and Edwards is stuttering in the Championship.

[NewClaret]

I've spoken to many supporters who believe that performances will improve once the manager and squad has had longer to settle. There are, of course, some people who don't think that will happen. Either way, the manager and players deserve time and supporters' patience while we find out.

Fully agree with this sentiment.

As claretspice has ably pointed out, we were lacklustre for the first dozen or so games under Kompany and I distinctly remember posting a thread entitled “We’re not good enough to go up”… how wrong was I.

Parker is getting results and needs patience. Yes, the performances have been lacking but its results that are most important this season. He and we need to focus on them first and foremost.

I am one that expects performances to improve though, I think we just need to attack with a bit more pace and purpose. I think that’ll come as the lads get really match fit and into their rhythm.

[jlup1980]

Performances will improve once the team is settled and the players understand the system. I think we have a few square pegs in round holes at the moment and SP needs to make a few big calls for the good of the team, but maybe I'll be proved wrong and the current 11 will gel and start to look a bit more fluid. Personally I think we're a few tweaks away from having a hell of a team at this level. I don't understand why we're sacrificing Koleosho on the right for starters. He's a far better player off the left. Laurent looks the better of him and Hannibal. Fleming looks like he will hold the ball up better IMO.

Trafford
Roberts Worrall Esteve Pires
Cullen Laurent
Sarmiento Brownhill Koleosho
Fleming

[Spijed]

Just seen that they only scraped a home win at the weekend after a red card against Sheffield Wednesday.

Incredible that at some points last year there were fans saying what a better manager Edwards is to Kompany and he’s now at Bayern managing Champions League games and Edwards is stuttering in the Championship.

Probably proves a point that Edwards is far better at managing poorer players than VK is, that's why they had a better chance of stopping up than we ever did.

VK, like Pep will do well with better players, but will never succeed with a squad at the other end of the table.

[houseboy]

Just seen that they only scraped a home win at the weekend after a red card against Sheffield Wednesday.

Incredible that at some points last year there were fans saying what a better manager Edwards is to Kompany and he’s now at Bayern managing Champions League games and Edwards is stuttering in the Championship.

Oh the irony eh? Not just that but by all accounts he seems to be doing okay.

[houseboy]

Just seen last night that the potential new owners at Everton would be keen on Southgate as their manager. Just imagining if Dyche gets potted all the retro heads on here shouting Bring Back Dyche.

Trust me it will happen.

[NewClaret]

Oh the irony eh? Not just that but by all accounts he seems to be doing okay.

It’s an incredible change in circumstances and one that just proves how much **** we chat sometimes.

Just like when everyone was proclaiming that we’d lose money on all our summer signings, then we make excellent money.

I really hope if we make it to the premier league again and start losing (which we will), it’s a good reminder not to be so doom and gloom about the players/manager.

Re: Kompany, it’s probably a fair comment that was made to my post that he’s a good manager with a strong team. I could probably manage Bayern to a few wins in that league with the players they have. Still, the results have been excellent and other very big name managers have been there and not delivered such overwhelming scorelines. I think he’d have got it right here with our budget, given another season at it, had he stayed.