More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[Lancasterclaret]

Sid, word to the wise mate

DSR doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to the border. He's ignoring stuff that doesn't fit in with what he wants.

In a nutshell "the hard border" is an expression being used to cover about 145 issues (I think). The actual border is just one of these, which he's fixated on for some reason.

[martin_p]

If May had done that, and had taken the elementary precaustion of discussing it in advance with the DUP and with other parties including Sinn Fein, then the whole thing needn't be any issue at all except to the extent that the EU want to make it one.

And the fact they didn’t take that ‘elementary precaution’ is symptomatic of the way the whole thing is being mismanaged.

[aggi]

They should have told the EU that the border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK will of course remain open; that's not negotiable. That should never have been raised. But if the EU wants to keep the Northern Ireland - Eire border fully open for free trade, both ways of course, that's fine too; if they don't, that's their business not ours.

May has already said there will be no need as far as we're concerned for a hard physical border; the EU has said that's what they want too; the "hard" border can be worked via paperwork and internet as it already is. If May had done that, and had taken the elementary precaustion of discussing it in advance with the DUP and with other parties including Sinn Fein, then the whole thing needn't be any issue at all except to the extent that the EU want to make it one.

That would make it impossible for us to go "hard brexit" as it would breach WTO rules though (or we'd have to have free trade with the world which would quickly screw us over).

The "it's their problem, not ours" answers might sound good but they don't actually work in the arena of international law.

[aggi]

So when the DUP said We will not accept any form of regulatory divergence which separates Northern Ireland economically or politically from the rest of the United Kingdom. is this good news for those pushing for equal legislation re: abortions, gay marriage, etc?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

"I already feel more intelligenter."

I knew you'd fall for that Ringo, you really don't have a clue when people are taking the **** out of you do you?

For your information it's a quote from the Jack Black movie Year One (after he eats from the Tree Of Knowledge).

Thanks for playing though

[dsr]

That would make it impossible for us to go "hard brexit" as it would breach WTO rules though (or we'd have to have free trade with the world which would quickly screw us over).

The "it's their problem, not ours" answers might sound good but they don't actually work in the arena of international law.

No it eouldn't. It would mean we had free trade with the EU, which would be legal. And in any case, there are plenty of precedents for an easy border between the EU and non-EU, albeit generally on a smaller scale - UK-Isle of Man, UK-Channel Islands, France-Monaco, Spain-Canary Islands, France-Overseas Territories, etc. The principles aren't insurmountable.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

"Oh, I definitely feel something."
"What?"
"Less hungry, for one, but also more intelligenter."

You know, like a Brexit voter?

[aggi]

No it eouldn't. It would mean we had free trade with the EU, which would be legal. And in any case, there are plenty of precedents for an easy border between the EU and non-EU, albeit generally on a smaller scale - UK-Isle of Man, UK-Channel Islands, France-Monaco, Spain-Canary Islands, France-Overseas Territories, etc. The principles aren't insurmountable.

But as we didn't have a trade deal with the EU (hard brexit), we would have to offer the same terms to other WTO nations due to the Most Favoured Nation principle. The issue in this case is the lack of formal trade deal, your examples have deals in place.

[RingoMcCartney]

I knew you'd fall for that Ringo, you really don't have a clue when people are taking the **** out of you do you?

For your information it's a quote from the Jack Black movie Year One (after he eats from the Tree Of Knowledge).

Thanks for playing though

And I knew you'd respond too!

Thank YOU for being played!

[dsr]

But as we didn't have a trade deal with the EU (hard brexit), we would have to offer the same terms to other WTO nations due to the Most Favoured Nation principle. The issue in this case is the lack of formal trade deal, your examples have deals in place.

That's the point. If the EU sees an open border with Eire to be paramount, a free trade deal is the way to do it.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm confused, is this the free trade deal that isn't as good as WTO rules?

You've been banging on about how it wouldn't really affect us if we went all WTO and all of a sudden as the latest Brexit conundrum appears, its now back to a free trade deal?

You do know that a free trade deal with the EU will include bits that you really are not going to like?

[dsr]

I'm confused, is this the free trade deal that isn't as good as WTO rules?

You've been banging on about how it wouldn't really affect us if we went all WTO and all of a sudden as the latest Brexit conundrum appears, its now back to a free trade deal?

You do know that a free trade deal with the EU will include bits that you really are not going to like?

A free trade deal with the EU would be pretty much what we have now. I don't think it will happen because the EU doesn't want it, but as I said, if they genuinely think that an unobstructed border with Eire is paramount, then that's the price. The WTO is the fallback position, but it's not the last resort IMO.

The chances of a deal including everything we want and nothing bad are nil anyway, they always have been. What worries me is that the chances of a deal giving the EU everything they want don't seem to be nil at all. They ought to be.

[martin_p]

And I knew you'd respond too!

Thank YOU for being played!

Are you 12?

[JohnMcGreal]

The chances of a deal including everything we want and nothing bad are nil anyway, they always have been. What worries me is that the chances of a deal giving the EU everything they want don't seem to be nil at all. They ought to be.

Is the penny starting to drop that 1 disunited nation against 27 united nations doesn't have any leverage or power in these negotiations?

[Lancasterclaret]

A free trade deal with the EU would be pretty much what we have now.

No it would not, because nothing that we can get will be as good as we have now. I knew that before the referendum. How come you don't?

[dsr]

Is the penny starting to drop that 1 disunited nation against 27 united nations doesn't have any leverage or power in these negotiations?

We never did have leverage. Either we were going to get a deal fair to both sides because there was goodwill on both sides, or it was going to be WTO. There isn't goodwill on both sides, so WTO it is (or should be).

[JohnMcGreal]

We never did have leverage.

But I thought they needed us more than we needed them? I thought they'd be bending over backwards to do a deal with us? What about all the prosecco and BMW's?

[Tall Paul]

That's the point. If the EU sees an open border with Eire to be paramount, a free trade deal is the way to do it.

Isn't it the UK (and the DUP) that wants the open border with Ireland?

[Lancasterclaret]

You are tying yourself in knots here Dsr.

Fair play for your position, but its always been shaky at best and its going to get a hell of a lot shakier.

[dsr]

No it would not, because nothing that we can get will be as good as we have now. I knew that before the referendum. How come you don't?

It's not a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of opinion. And it's also a matter of priority - free trade within the EU may be important, but it's not the be-all and end-all of life.

[Lancasterclaret]

No it is not.

It is a fact. You have an opinion that is incorrect and you persist in using it as "fact".

Your opinion is fine, but its not as good, and never will be as good as "facts".

Which is why your argument is shaky as hell and about (like the whole Brexit argument about the SM, CU and the Irish border) to come tumbling down.

BTW it gives me absolutely no pleasure at all about being right about this from Day One, as its our country that suffers because people didn't want to face reality and voted for a unicorn.

[dsr]

But I thought they needed us more than we needed them? I thought they'd be bending over backwards to do a deal with us? What about all the prosecco and BMW's?

There is more value to the EU (about £320bn to £240bn) in their exports to us than in our exports to them. So in absolute terms, any sort of trade or tariff war would hurt them more than us. But as many people on here have pointed out, in a tariff war they could lose only 18% of their exports while we lose 44%, so they have the option of taking the loss and the pain in the knowledge that our people would lose and suffer more than their people. There will certainly be losses to people on both sides of the dispute, but the EU hierarchy are (it seems) willing to take the hit. Presumably to discourage other people from leaving.

If there was goodwill on both sides, a deal wouldn't be difficult, because the EU have the leverage but they also have a lot to gain. If the EU wants to use the leverage to screw us to the floor, then both sides lose, but we (in the short term) lose more. My opinion is that that's still a better option than remaining, because in the long term, we're well out of it.

[RingoMcCartney]

Are you 12?

No.

But I'll meet up with you in 5........years Martin. When you'll finally be able to perhaps, have some evidence on whether leaving the EU and ending free movement of people of people will not have helped to stop people explotation, trafficking and slavery. Which you claimed you had.

See you in 5!

[dsr]

"Nothing that we can get will be as good as we have now."

That's a fact? Link please.

[martin_p]

No.

But I'll meet up with you in 5........years Martin. When you'll finally be able to perhaps, have some evidence on whether leaving the EU and ending free movement of people of people will not have helped to stop people explotation, trafficking and slavery. Which you claimed you had.

See you in 5!

Well let’s hope you’ve learned what it means by then. I’m not holding my breath.

[Lancasterclaret]

Because the EU cannot give us as good as we have now, or everybody will leave. You know that, I know that, Everybody knows that.

You keep bowling me full tosses, and I'll keep hitting them out of the park.

You are going to come back with "but that is not a fact"

I'm going to reply with "you were told that before the referendum by everybody who knew anything about this."

Remember "Project Fear?" - its a sad fact that quite a bit of it was the reality.

[UpTheBeehole]

No.

But I'll meet up with you in 5........years Martin. When you'll finally be able to perhaps, have some evidence on whether leaving the EU and ending free movement of people of people will not have helped to stop people explotation, trafficking and slavery. Which you claimed you had.

See you in 5!

Does anyone know the procedure for visiting at Broadmoor, and can pass it on to Martin so he can go and see Ringo?

[martin_p]

Does anyone know the procedure for visiting at Broadmoor, and can pass it on to Martin so he can go and see Ringo?

Thanks for the help, but I think I’ll pass!

[UpTheBeehole]

Nurse! Nurse!

I've got a visitor!

It's Martin from five years ago!

We won, you lost! Get over it!






Etc Etc

[dsr]

Because the EU cannot give us as good as we have now, or everybody will leave. You know that, I know that, Everybody knows that.

You keep bowling me full tosses, and I'll keep hitting them out of the park.

You are going to come back with "but that is not a fact"

I'm going to reply with "you were told that before the referendum by everybody who knew anything about this."

Remember "Project Fear?" - its a sad fact that quite a bit of it was the reality.

I know it won't, not that it can't. It would be perfectly possible for the EU to go back how it was to a free trade zone, but they won't, because to the politicians political union is the goal and democracy cannot stand in its way. What are the benefits of the EU apart from the free trade zone, which is what it was set up for in the first place? Why is the EU such a sacred cow that anyone who wishes to leave must be punished because if they aren't, everyone else would leave too? What is the benefit of any sort of organisation that can only survive by threats that they will make it unpleasant for anyone that wants out?

Free trade is a good thing; the rest of the EU isn't, which is why (as you point out) most countries would leave if they could keep the free trade but ditch the rest. The rest, IMO, is enough reason to leave even if we lose the free trade. The rest, in your opinion, is either beneficial or else worth putting up with for the sake of the free trade.

[RingoMcCartney]

Well let’s hope you’ve learned what it means by then. I’m not holding my breath.

Evidence is something that can only be gleaned, once an event has actually taken place.

So for you to have evidence that ending free movement of people will not help stop exploitation and people trafficking, is impossible.

So don't waste time holding your breath. Instead, fire up the Delorean Marty!

[UpTheBeehole]

Evidence is something that can only be gleaned, once an event has actually taken place.

So for you to have evidence that ending free movement of people will not help stop exploitation and people trafficking, is impossible.

So don't waste time holding your breath. Instead, fire up the Delorean Marty!

Talking of evidence, have those racist asian ghosts in Batley turned up yet?

[Lancasterclaret]

Wow so rather than deal with a situation that is current, and maybe do something about by being in the EU, you think leaving it and taking a hit makes it all worthwhile?

Thats what should have been said before the referendum then. But it wasn't. People who believe what you do deliberately lied to the population of this country, promising stuff that couldn't be true.

They believed it because they wanted to believe that all those things would happen. You and your like raised the expectation levels of what was possible to absurd levels, and we are all going to take the hit.

Cheers

[dsr]

You and your like raised the expectation levels of what was possible to absurd levels ...

The arrogance. The 52% who voted for Brexit are identical in every way.

I never expressed any opinion that free trade would be obtainable from the EU, because like you I never believed the EU would negotiate with goodwill. Maybe it was "you and your like" (sic) who should have made more of the fact that if we leave the EU will play Mr Nasty and give as little as humanly possible - ie. nothing - and therefore we should remain, not for the benefits that the EU brings, but because they will be so obstructive when we leave? I don't recall much in the way of the "Remain" campaign saying "Vote Remain, because the other 27 will treat us like dogs if we go".

[UpTheBeehole]

The arrogance. The 52% who voted for Brexit are identical in every way.

I never expressed any opinion that free trade would be obtainable from the EU, because like you I never believed the EU would negotiate with goodwill. Maybe it was "you and your like" (sic) who should have made more of the fact that if we leave the EU will play Mr Nasty and give as little as humanly possible - ie. nothing - and therefore we should remain, not for the benefits that the EU brings, but because they will be so obstructive when we leave? I don't recall much in the way of the "Remain" campaign saying "Vote Remain, because the other 27 will treat us like dogs if we go".

The EU have approached these negotiations in a very business like manner. There have been no attacks, and no childishness.

The UK's technique however is awful

You're too bigoted to see this though, because you're so wrapped up in your deluded brexit bubble

[Darthlaw]

Wow so rather than deal with a situation that is current, and maybe do something about by being in the EU, you think leaving it and taking a hit makes it all worthwhile?

Thats what should have been said before the referendum then. But it wasn't. People who believe what you do deliberately lied to the population of this country, promising stuff that couldn't be true.

Lancaster, despite Dave's 'Neville Chamberlain', moment prior to the referendum, this was the overriding factor in my mind in my vote. Could we work out the issues from within the EU?

Then, the night before the referendum...

"The British policy makers and the British people have to know that there will be no kind of renegotiations.

“We concluded a deal with the Prime Minister. He got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give, so there will be no kind of renegotiation, on the agreement we found I think in February nor as far as any treaty negotiation [is concerned]. Out is out."

I think the most important part of your initial sentence is the word 'maybe'. Maybe do something about it. Maybe.

Maybe vs one of the top officials saying absolutely 'no kind of renegotiations'

Is it really fair to say the voting public were lied to? I would suggest given Mr Juncker's words, anyone suggesting change could have been made would have been the liars.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yup.

Reading about stuff so I'm informed is "arrogant"

You talk about us being "punished". We are not being punished because we knew all this before. We all told you (and by you, I mean all leavers) what was going to happen. You (again, all leavers not you) told us that the EU needed us more than we needed them, and it would be the "easiest trade deal in history". The list is endless sadly.

Welcome to Brexit Britain folks, we are going to be fine.

[Lancasterclaret]

Maybe vs one of the top officials saying absolutely 'no kind of renegotiations'

Is it really fair to say the voting public were lied to? I would suggest given Mr Juncker's words, anyone suggesting change could have been made would have been the liars.

So you voted on one statement from one EU official?

Right

We can control (or at least help guide) the EU as a member state, we've got zero leverage outside it (as has been proved in these negotiations).

[aggi]

Evidence is something that can only be gleaned, once an event has actually taken place.

So for you to have evidence that ending free movement of people will not help stop exploitation and people trafficking, is impossible.

So don't waste time holding your breath. Instead, fire up the Delorean Marty!

Anyone else worried about whether the sun will come up tomorrow?

[Darthlaw]

Yes - the statement of the President of the European Commission, not exactly some run of the mill official. Are you suggesting he was lying or that I should have disregarded his statement with my vote?

The only control we had was our veto. We could stop things from happening, not help it, guide it, make suggestions or anything else without the agreement of all the other member states. Given Juncker's statement, if you still thought we had any more power to influence the club, you must be smoking some strong stuff.

[aggi]

Excellent - David Davis is now suggesting regulatory alignment for the whole UK. We really will be subservient to the EU if that plan goes through, obeying all the rules but with no say in how they're made. Keep an eye out for that tax on financial transactions coming soon.

[Lancasterclaret]

If you start off assuming that the EU is a superstate, then its hard to see any other conclusions than what you draw.

As it isn't, and I don't see it that way then its quite easy to see it for what it is. I see 28 countries with differing ideas, aspirations and visions. As a member, we can influence the way it goes, as not a member, we can't.

[ClaretCliff]

Because the EU cannot give us as good as we have now, or everybody will leave. You know that, I know that, Everybody knows that.

This is what I don’t get about people like you being so mad keen to stay in the EU. If every country would leave if they got the same deal as they have now, as you say, then it must be a pretty lousy club to be a member of.

[UpTheBeehole]

This is what I don’t get about people like you being so mad keen to stay in the EU. If every country would leave if they got the same deal as they have now, as you say, then it must be a pretty lousy club to be a member of.

?

[Lancasterclaret]

Eh?

I'm sorry, but I have no idea at all what that means but I think you are on about the benefits from our point of view?

It is about trade. Its an unbeatable deal from a trade point of view. 18 months on, I'm still seen zero evidence to dispute this.

[Lancasterclaret]

And in regarding the thorny issue of the Irish border, we could just accept the Norway option, one that both Nigel Farage and Dan Hannan were keen on before the referendum.

They were not keen after the referendum, because they saw it as a vote for their vision of Brexit, which it wasn't as the Brexit they had promised wasn't possible.

But rather than admit that, they (and all Brexiteers) have blamed the EU for it. The slightest bit of knowledge about the subject would torpedo that, which is why the Brexit supporters and their media allies (especially the written ones) are desperately trying to ignore stuff that they don't want to hear and to keep banging on about EU "punishing us".

Norway option would be fine now, as no one here is going to argue that Norway isn't a sovereign country are they?

But Norway accepts freedom of movement, which is the issue for a lot of you.

[Paul Waine]

As Lancaster says, it is the UK leaving. It's high time those tasked with achieving a successful Brexit quit with the spoiled brat approach and sat down like adults to discuss properly.

Hi UTB, firstly, apologies for being late with my response, I've been "out and about" most of the day.

I'd suggested in my earlier response that things may be better if we all cut out the "personal abuse." I believe we should include our politicians in this deal. Yes, some of them haven't/aren't performing as we'd hope them to, but "personal abuse" doesn't help for anyone.

My thoughts are on the Versailles Treaty that ended WWI. In that treaty the victors chose to punish the vanquished. Reparations were imposed on Germany. History tells us that this was a mistake and created the circumstances that led to the rise of Hitler and WWII. At the end of WWII a different approach was adopted (perhaps this different approach was also encouraged by the existence of the threat from Russia/USSR) and, through the Marshall Plan the allies supported the recovery and economic growth of Germany.

Yes, of course, the UK is not leaving EU after losing a war. However, I see parallels with the Treaty of Versailles. Versailles said to Germany "you started it, so you must pay..." This similar to "it's the UK that is leaving, so....." Much better to take a lesson from the end of WWII and extend the "hand of friendship" from the EU27 to the UK.

We all know from the football that we watch. I "dirty" tackle may often be responded to with "pay back" in a similarly hard tackle. A tackle that is followed by extending the "hand of friendship" between the rival teams may result in a better game to watch.

So, I want the UK to extend the hand of friendship to the EU27 - and would hope that the EU27 will also extend their hand in friendship. And, this shouldn't be confined to the politicians, we should all do it - and extend our hand of friendship across the "leave" and "remain" divide. I'm sure if we tried this everything would start to work out better for all of us.

A little while back we had a thread about the EU withdrawing the 2023 European Capital of Culture from the UK. OK, some found that disappointing.
I was encouraged to read a report at the w/end that several European cities, including some that had themselves enjoyed European Capital of Culture status in previous years (including some who are not in EU member states) wrote to Brussels and asked them to reconsider. They suggested that one of the UK cities could be the European Capital of Culture in 2023 - and that this would be the "true meaning" of European friendship.

Anyway, just an idea....

[Greenmile]

No it is not.

It is a fact. You have an opinion that is incorrect and you persist in using it as "fact".

Your opinion is fine, but its not as good, and never will be as good as "facts".

Which is why your argument is shaky as hell and about (like the whole Brexit argument about the SM, CU and the Irish border) to come tumbling down.

BTW it gives me absolutely no pleasure at all about being right about this from Day One, as its our country that suffers because people didn't want to face reality and voted for a unicorn.

Why should dsr bother with facts when lies are so much more convenient?

[Healeywoodclaret]

Are you going to answer my question?

Yes I will since you've shown no evidence that I threatened your friend! I'm reading your posts with a wooden look on my face!

[dsr]

Why should dsr bother with facts when lies are so much more convenient?

Not still on about the qualified audit report, are you?