2.7 Million Brexiteers Have Changed to Remain

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:51 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Hey, even when they cant admit theyre wrong. I'll always shake hands with a fellow claret.

For you, Ringo, I refer you to Lancs post 986, this thread.

If you ask nicely, maybe.....

Well, who knows.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:54 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi nil_d,

There was no "Tusk" in the 2 x "26 countries" posts that I was refering to.

And, Lancs, has graciously acknowledged his (small) mistake.

I'm fine with that. None of us are perfect - and, for me, that refers to all people whichever side of the brexit debate they are on.

Hi Paul,
This is Lancaster's post that I read and responded to, so perhaps you can see why I interpreted it as i did?

And please, please, please, please bear in mind that Tusk speaks for 26 countries, he has to make sure they are all in agreement before he comes out with stuff. Its a democracy over there too remember?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:55 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Watching Ringo try and get his ahead around how Lancasterclarets ‘block’ feature works kinda sums up this whole Brexit process in a way.

And you not comprehending that I was fully aware how the block facility works and I was simply playing to an audience for a short while by responding to his posts, but by post 959 had started just posting general but keeping the subject matter Lancs based. Kinda sums up how your brain processes in a way. Or should I more accurately say, doesn't

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:58 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Hi Paul,
This is Lancaster's post that I read and responded to, so perhaps you can see why I interpreted it as i did?

No worries. As you may see, I'd not seen the "Tusk+26" when I first asked why 27?

Small typo. I'm fine. I do many myself. "Should" v "Shouldn't" earlier today, for example.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:02 pm

Paul Waine wrote:For you, Ringo, I refer you to Lancs post 986, this thread.

If you ask nicely, maybe.....

Well, who knows.

Well who'd have thunk it Paul!

So he can do it if he trys.

I'll back him all the way. And if he wont that's fine too. He's fully entitled to be wrong and not admit it. My Mrs reckons I'm a natural at it!

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:13 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:And you not comprehending that I was fully aware how the block facility works and I was simply playing to an audience for a short while by responding to his posts, but by post 959 had started just posting general but keeping the subject matter Lancs based. Kinda sums up how your brain processes in a way. Or should I more accurately say, doesn't

Ah but of course you were. All five times.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:22 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Ah but of course you were. All five times.

He can count!

What he lacks in the ability to accept honesty, he makes up for in numerical mediocrity!

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:29 pm

Rest assured I would never block you hero.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:37 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Rest assured I would never block you hero.

You and i both know that, without Ringo in your life, those long, dark and lonely winter nights, would cease to fly by.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:39 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You and i both know that, without Ringo in your life, those long, dark and lonely winter nights, would cease to fly by.

Don’t forget Friday afternoons.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:40 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Don’t forget Friday afternoons.

Regulation issue.

Caballo · Post by **Caballo** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:42 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Nope. That's the way I read it. I tend to take things literally, and I thought Lancs was being pedantic by pointing out that (as EU President) Tusk speaks for another 26 nations - not just his own. In context this is actually what he was doing.
(This technically is the position).

The absolute opposite of literal. You've read what Lancs wrote and made it suit a position.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:51 pm

Donald Tusk - the diplomacy skills of a toddler.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:05 pm

Caballo wrote:The absolute opposite of literal. You've read what Lancs wrote and made it suit a position.

See post 1002.
How did it suit a position? (What position?)
It's a pointless argument anyway. (27 or 26 +1).
Paul Waine fully understands.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:05 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Every life bears a story - do you not think there's a correlation between why rich people (mostly) voted remain & the people without predominantly voted leave, it doesn't Einstein's to work that out, I wish somebody would bring up the fishing thread as I never mentioned rustling ducks & this is the 2nd time my name has been associated with this.

Since we're talking about correlation would this be an appropriate place to point out that better educated people tended to vote remain and less educated people tended to vote leave? Do you think there might be a reason for that?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:26 pm

Bacchus wrote:Since we're talking about correlation would this be an appropriate place to point out that better educated people tended to vote remain and less educated people tended to vote leave? Do you think there might be a reason for that?

Facts please? It stands to reason that most rich people would be better educated arriving to that, exceptions of course, doesn't devalue the point that the majority voted to leave, it's not based on mensa or people's individual IQs it's actually based on a majority/minority vote, the irony is the more educated people fail to grasp that simple concept & undergo a herculean cranium crunching task to ascertain the elementary of that decisive point.

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:47 pm

I don't fully understand the goings on in this Brexit debate, but Tusks Instagram photo of the cake speaks volumes for the type of people we're dealing with. Time to tell them to get ******.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:53 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Facts please? It stands to reason that most rich people would be better educated arriving to that, exceptions of course, doesn't devalue the point that the majority voted to leave, it's not based on mensa or people's individual IQs it's actually based on a majority/minority vote, the irony is the more educated people fail to grasp that simple concept & undergo a herculean cranium crunching task to ascertain the elementary of that decisive point.

You obviously believe that rich people voted remain for their own selfish ends (as opposed to paupers like Rees-Mogg, Farage, Johnson, Dacre etc.)

I was just pointing out a different correlation.

On that matter, while Johnson came out for Leave I'd be willing to bet that he secretly voted remain. He's an amoral self serving sociopath but he isn't an idiot.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:56 pm

Murger wrote:I don't fully understand the goings on in this Brexit debate, but Tusks Instagram photo of the cake speaks volumes for the type of people we're dealing with. Time to tell them to get ******.

Even as a staunch Remainer I'd agree that his social media output lacks class and is hardly helpful. Using that as the basis for trashing our economy is a bit daft though.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:00 pm

John Redwood's take:

Best to read that then watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwylBRucU7w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:53 pm

How come the UK shares rose more than French and German ones today?

Strange if Theresa May has messed up so much?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:54 pm

Bacchus wrote:You obviously believe that rich people voted remain for their own selfish ends (as opposed to paupers like Rees-Mogg, Farage, Johnson, Dacre etc.)

I was just pointing out a different correlation.

On that matter, while Johnson came out for Leave I'd be willing to bet that he secretly voted remain. He's an amoral self serving sociopath but he isn't an idiot.

4 paupers X the masses, would be a interesting statistical analysis, 4 rich brexiteers going against how many? A different angle to promote the remain would be advantageous to the vested agenda.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:03 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:How come the UK shares rose more than French and German ones today?

Strange if Theresa May has messed up so much?

"The pound - a barometer of investor expectations on Brexit - has come under fresh selling pressure today after Theresa May warned EU leaders to come up with new alternatives to her Brexit proposals if they are to break a deadlock in the talks.

A falling pound typically boosts FTSE 100 firms, which make around 70% of total earnings from overseas.

The FTSE 100 closed 123 points higher at 7,490."

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:14 pm

just been listening to any questions on BBC radio, some arrogant, inarticulate **** called shakira martin, who is president of national students union, she blamed the electorate, specifically older voters for voting to leave. Her simpleton contribution on this topic suggested that because 1.4 million younger voters will now be eligible to vote now who were too young for the referendum, it will go their way next time.
Christ knows who put her in office for her role with students, but she was a hideous embarrassment.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:18 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:How come the UK shares rose more than French and German ones today?

Strange if Theresa May has messed up so much?

As is traditional when May speaks, sterling dropped. This tends to boost the FTSE as a large part of their earnings aren't in sterling and also makes it more attractive to non UK investors.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:19 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:just been listening to any questions on BBC radio, some arrogant, inarticulate **** called shakira martin, who is president of national students union, she blamed the electorate, specifically older voters for voting to leave. Her simpleton contribution on this topic suggested that because 1.4 million younger voters will now be eligible to vote now who were too young for the referendum, it will go their way next time.
Christ knows who put her in office for her role with students, but she was a hideous embarrassment.

What the referendum threw up,was an age divide most people over 45 voted to leave,wealth divide more affluent people voted remain,and a geographical divide,London,Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain,the North of England,Cornwall and Wales voted to leave.

This shouldn't be surprising voters under the age of say 60 will have grown up,with firstly the Common Market and then the European Union,to these people such organisations are an everyday part of their life,older voters can remember a time before the EEC and want to go back to what they perceive as a boom period for British industry.

A major factor in the 2016 vote was a very high turnout among over 65's,and this demographic voted overwhelmingly to leave,the bottom line is if students want to influence results they have to participate,the article below shows that if the younger age groups had turned out in similar numbers to their older counterparts,the result could have been much closer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ce-as-high

To put it in simple language the lazy beggars need to get out of their beds and bother to vote,this was shown by Labour's unexpectedly good General Election performance,if there was a 2nd referendum,i'll be curious how much if at all youth turnout increases or not,i know there has been a targeted social media campaign to ensure students etc are registered,if this age group really are passionate about their future,then they have to stand up and be counted quite literally.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:19 pm

Murger wrote:I don't fully understand the goings on in this Brexit debate, but Tusks Instagram photo of the cake speaks volumes for the type of people we're dealing with. Time to tell them to get ******.

No comprehending required, pond life personified.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:26 pm

aggi wrote:As is traditional when May speaks, sterling dropped. This tends to boost the FTSE as a large part of their earnings aren't in sterling and also makes it more attractive to non UK investors.

Hi aggi, I agree the first part, lots of FTSE 100 stocks have earnings in USD - some even report in USD.

I'm not sure the second part "more attractive to non UK investors" is that straightforward. Yes, weaker GBP makes the equity cheaper to buy for foreign investors, yes, as said, USD earnings will be higher, but investors must also be saying that "UK will be fine" and the "brexit downside" is not so significant if they continue to see buying opportunities with UK quoted equities.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:30 pm

It's amazing that such an important topic is descending into a tit for tat sixth-form debating society,not on this board but among these so called statesmen and women.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm

tiger76 wrote:What the referendum threw up,was an age divide most people over 45 voted to leave,wealth divide more affluent people voted remain,and a geographical divide,London,Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain,the North of England,Cornwall and Wales voted to leave.

This shouldn't be surprising voters under the age of say 60 will have grown up,with firstly the Common Market and then the European Union,to these people such organisations are an everyday part of their life,older voters can remember a time before the EEC and want to go back to what they perceive as a boom period for British industry.

A major factor in the 2016 vote was a very high turnout among over 65's,and this demographic voted overwhelmingly to leave,the bottom line is if students want to influence results they have to participate,the article below shows that if the younger age groups had turned out in similar numbers to their older counterparts,the result could have been much closer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ce-as-high

To put it in simple language the lazy beggars need to get out of their beds and bother to vote,this was shown by Labour's unexpectedly good General Election performance,if there was a 2nd referendum,i'll be curious how much if at all youth turnout increases or not,i know there has been a targeted social media campaign to ensure students etc are registered,if this age group really are passionate about their future,then they have to stand up and be counted quite literally.

tiger, she was rude, flippant, dismissive. Totally unable to grasp the democratic process, and more importantly, the validity of the votes cast by older voters. She has a high profile for some inexplicable reason, and seemed thick as pig****.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:40 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:tiger, she was rude, flippant, dismissive. Totally unable to grasp the democratic process, and more importantly, the validity of the votes cast by older voters. She has a high profile for some inexplicable reason, and seemed thick as pig****.

Thats what completely angers me, another nail in the coffin we'll do what we like when pushing up the daisy's. Everybodys vote should be equal & treat with the respect it deserves.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:41 pm

tiger76 wrote:What the referendum threw up,was an age divide most people over 45 voted to leave,wealth divide more affluent people voted remain,and a geographical divide,London,Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain,the North of England,Cornwall and Wales voted to leave.

This shouldn't be surprising voters under the age of say 60 will have grown up,with firstly the Common Market and then the European Union,to these people such organisations are an everyday part of their life,older voters can remember a time before the EEC and want to go back to what they perceive as a boom period for British industry.

Hi tiger, I think I'm in your 60+ age profile -- but, no way do I want to go back to a time before 1973 when the UK joined the EEC. Post-war rationing had only just ended when I was born. 1960s - they were fun if you were growing up with "pop" music - some great bands back then, but seriously, living standards were very low back then for the "ordinary family." There wasn't much of a "boom for British industry." (There were a lot of strikes.....).

The good economic times we've seen in the UK started when Margaret Thatcher gave everything a "shake up" - and even the 1980s didn't start to well. And, some might find it strange, but there would be no single market if Thatcher hadn't said that was what she wanted from being a member of EU.

Our politicians today are disappointing. However, I don't know enough of the situation back 20, 30, 40, 50 years to know whether today's lot are any worse than politicians in previous periods.

Just a thought: if social media had existed in earlier times, maybe we would be making the same judgements back then that we make today about politicians. No doubt they would all be well advised to "step away from their keyboard."

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:59 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:tiger, she was rude, flippant, dismissive. Totally unable to grasp the democratic process, and more importantly, the validity of the votes cast by older voters. She has a high profile for some inexplicable reason, and seemed thick as pig****.

I'm not denying that if she is a typical remain voter then heaven help the next generation(thankfully she isn't),i try not to make personal attacks,but this constant insulting of older voters many who have more life experience than the Facebook generation irritates me,their opinions are just as valid as the younger voters and they vote,change never came from sitting on your a**e.

On this Shakira Martin Google throws up some interesting articles,the girl sounds like she has a chip on her shoulder.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... t-union-hq

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2 ... -students/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/educ ... 77591.html

Doesn't surprise me in the least she is a fan of Corbyn and a radical left wing activist.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:15 pm

a loudmouth, clearly with some influence amongst the fashionably smug and well fed elements of the left at the most naive end of the university spectrum. If they regard this bitter, rancid **** as leadership material god help them.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:32 pm

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:39 pm

If it be your will wrote:I, too, consider this to be of enormous importance.

I can't get my head around it, though. Let's say the courts determined A50 can indeed be unilaterally revoked, surely that would make a mockery of A50's very existence? Certainly, the 2-year time limit would have to be deleted because it wouldn't make any sense anymore - you could just revoke A50 then invoke it again an hour later if you were running out of time, and get yourself another 2 years. And another...

Pure, practical logic therefore compels me to think it can't be revoked without agreement from the EU. Or, if it can, it needs to be completely re-written to make any sense. Is there an angle I'm missing here?

Yes.

Democracy.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:50 pm

That's a alien concept, explain it please.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:21 am

Another day, another attempt to subvert democracy. I see it is Jolyon Maugham this time. I’ve blocked him on Twitter but couldn’t avoid him on BBC radio this week, now I see that the Scots, bless them, have said he can go to the ECJ.

Do these people not get that Britain will be rabidly Eurosceptic (even by recent standards) unless we get a proper chance to see what it is like on the other side? If they overturn A50 now and then engineer another referendum, and win it - what then? Back to “normal”? What happens when the next Euro crisis or migration crisis bites?

No wonder the EU keeps trying it on with their footsoldiers in the U.K. fighting this battle for them.

Bonkers.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:52 am

Flap your little gums all you want but Euroscepticism peaked on the day of the referendum. Your movement failed the day its most prominent advocates ran away from responsibility.

Spaceman · Post by **Spaceman** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:07 am

Do you want a sandwich ? I can give you chicken, beef or ham ?
Yes I’d like a sandwich
Ok here’s one with dog turds inside .
But I don’t want a dog turd sandwich .
Shut up ! You said you wanted a sandwich so you get a sandwich .

From guardian comments

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:22 am

Were all the snowflakes on here who are so upset about Tusk’s fairly harmless Instagram cake joke equally upset when Boris compared the EU to Nazis dishing out punishment beatings? Or was Boris being respectful and statesmanlike?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:05 am

Greenmile wrote:Were all the snowflakes on here who are so upset about Tusk’s fairly harmless Instagram cake joke equally upset when Boris compared the EU to Nazis dishing out punishment beatings? Or was Boris being respectful and statesmanlike?

Didn't happen, so it's no issue. Johnson actually compared the EU's punishment of the UK to "like a World War 2 movie". Not to the war itself. Films and real life are different.

I don't really see the relevance of what someone else says, anyway. And I don't suppose that anyone is upset about it. It's just a bit tacky that a politician who supposes himself a statesman is publishing jokes mocking his colleagues. It's the sort of thing donald Trump might have looked at and decided it was going a bit too far. Or it could be the sort of thing Donald Trump looks at and decides is a fun thing to do, who knows? Either way, it's tacky.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:08 am

Murger wrote:I don't fully understand the goings on in this Brexit debate, but Tusks Instagram photo of the cake speaks volumes for the type of people we're dealing with. Time to tell them to get ******.

Jakubclaret wrote:No comprehending required, pond life personified.

Who would have thought that after all these years mocking the Europeans, it's now the British who have lost their sense of humour.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:09 am

dsr wrote:Didn't happen, so it's no issue. Johnson actually compared the EU's punishment of the UK to "like a World War 2 movie". Not to the war itself. Films and real life are different.

I don't really see the relevance of what someone else says, anyway. And I don't suppose that anyone is upset about it. It's just a bit tacky that a politician who supposes himself a statesman is publishing jokes mocking his colleagues. It's the sort of thing donald Trump might have looked at and decided it was going a bit too far. Or it could be the sort of thing Donald Trump looks at and decides is a fun thing to do, who knows? Either way, it's tacky.

What do you think WWII movies are based on? Are you really trying to suggest that comparing someone to a Nazi in a film is somehow different to comparing them to a Nazi ? Because that would make you as stupid as Jim Carey’s character in Dumb and Dumber (I’m not comparing you to real-life idiot, so I’m sure you won’t take offence).

Doesn’t Boris (who I believe was Foreign Secretary at the time of his comments) consider himself a statesman?

Your double standards are amazing. EU bad, Brexit good, irrespective of what either side actually says or does.

Oh, and if you don’t think anyone is upset about what Tusk said then I suggest you haven’t been reading very closely. Here’s two examples from this page.

Murger wrote:I don't fully understand the goings on in this Brexit debate, but Tusks Instagram photo of the cake speaks volumes for the type of people we're dealing with. Time to tell them to get ******.

Jakubclaret wrote:No comprehending required, pond life personified.

Don't you think Murger and Jakob seem a little bit upset by Tusk’s photo?

Edit - here’s another couple of examples of Brexit snowflakery over Tusk’s comments from another thread. They seem upset to me, but I’m sure dsr will explain that they aren’t.

burnleymik wrote:I think the EU made quite a big mistake laughing in the face of our PM and the way they behaved was frankly disgusting. I suspect this type of behaviour will bolster support for Brexit.

BleedingClaret wrote:I’m not a May or a Chequers deal fan but I felt really offended for her, which made me feel supportive.
I’d have given Tusk a verbal knuckle butty if I could.

Also, Ringo called him (Tusk) a “14 year old statesman” and then about three hours (and probably about four bottles of gin) later said he has “the diplomacy skills of a toddler”, yet I can’t remember him saying anything similar about Boris. Funny that, isn’t it?

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:45 am

Labour's not for turning ....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ith-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:10 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Another day, another attempt to subvert democracy. I see it is Jolyon Maugham this time. I’ve blocked him on Twitter but couldn’t avoid him on BBC radio this week, now I see that the Scots, bless them, have said he can go to the ECJ.

Do these people not get that Britain will be rabidly Eurosceptic (even by recent standards) unless we get a proper chance to see what it is like on the other side? If they overturn A50 now and then engineer another referendum, and win it - what then? Back to “normal”? What happens when the next Euro crisis or migration crisis bites?

No wonder the EU keeps trying it on with their footsoldiers in the U.K. fighting this battle for them.

Bonkers.

Try and keep out of the Brexit stuff these days - its repetitive - but this is such pernicious guff it deserves a response.

Jolyon Maugham is referring to the ECJ the question of whether Article 50 can be revoked without question. In other words, whether the status quo is an option. That is important because if we do have a second referendum that would have to be an option on the ballot paper.

Now, a second referendum may not be possible - the logistics don't really stack up time wise - but the argument its undemocratic is utter self-serving tosh. In effect it boils down to arguing an ill informed referendum is democratically legitimate, whereas an informed one between two well defined possible options would not be.

If we had another choice between two clearly defined options, and "remain" won, then clearly the country would not be rabidly euro sceptic. A minority would be rabidly euro sceptic who always have been, and of course its them who present this argument.

I'm not convinced a second referendum is practical, but leaving that aside, the language that brexit must be irreversible is the language of dictators who having gained power in a narrow election win, promptly suspend elections. For intelligent people to cloak it in the language of democracy is amongst the most disingenuous things I've ever heard or read.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:15 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi tiger, I think I'm in your 60+ age profile -- but, no way do I want to go back to a time before 1973 when the UK joined the EEC. Post-war rationing had only just ended when I was born. 1960s - they were fun if you were growing up with "pop" music - some great bands back then, but seriously, living standards were very low back then for the "ordinary family." There wasn't much of a "boom for British industry." (There were a lot of strikes.....).

The good economic times we've seen in the UK started when Margaret Thatcher gave everything a "shake up" - and even the 1980s didn't start to well. And, some might find it strange, but there would be no single market if Thatcher hadn't said that was what she wanted from being a member of EU.

Our politicians today are disappointing. However, I don't know enough of the situation back 20, 30, 40, 50 years to know whether today's lot are any worse than politicians in previous periods.

Just a thought: if social media had existed in earlier times, maybe we would be making the same judgements back then that we make today about politicians. No doubt they would all be well advised to "step away from their keyboard."

You’re giving purely empirical evidence. Life got better for you under Thatcher because you were at an age and had a skill set to take best advantage of the climate she created. For everyone like you there are many who suffered. And likewise conditions were considerably better during the 50s and 60s than they had been before.

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:16 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Another day, another attempt to subvert democracy.

Its a good job we have people who are willing to publicly explore the legality of this process and the various options because our government is utterly failing in its responsibility to do so. Are you sure your accusation of subverting democracy is aimed the right direction?

CrosspoolClarets wrote:What happens when the next Euro crisis or migration crisis bites?

It would be nice to think that our politicians and media would offer an accurate appraisal of the situation and allow the public to make an informed judgement rather than deliberately misinform the country to suit their own selfish agendas but I suspect we all know what would actually happen.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:28 am

Spiral wrote:Flap your little gums all you want but Euroscepticism peaked on the day of the referendum. Your movement failed the day its most prominent advocates ran away from responsibility.

"Prominent advocates ran away"

Nigel Farage - still an MEP
Daniel Hannon - still an MEP
Michael Gove - still a minister in the UK government
Boris Johnson - still MP in UK government and (potential PM)
Jacob Rees Mogg - still an MP in the UK government and forcing the rabid far left speech denying thugs to wet themselves at night.

Where as.

Cameron and Osborne couldn't get their trainers on quick enough.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:30 am

Osborne never wanted a referendum.