#politicslive

[TVC15]

What`s Brexit ?

Just wanted to be 1000th post !!

[Lancasterclaret]

Well played!

EDIT

Hahahahahaha! YOU F**KED UP AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[aggi]

What`s Brexit ?

Just wanted to be 1000th post !!

Hang on, this was the 1000th reply. I was the 1000th post.

We can't have people making facts up on this thread!

[Quickenthetempo]

What`s Brexit ?

Just wanted to be 1000th post !!

Unlucky Aggi beat you to it.

You've been sent to room 1001.

[Mala591]

I generally agree with the substance of most of your posts, but I don't agree with that. I'm pretty sure that if we asked for an extension in order to explore with them a new deal that involved membership of the CU and some form of Single Market alignment (to be concluded within a time limit of say 6 months) then they would acquiesce.

If the EU were to allow us to stay in the customs union and negotiate a bespoke single market alignment AND allow us an independent immigration policy then that would definitely have (imo) a lot of support in parliament and with both moderate leave and remain supporters.

[dsr]

Perhaps I should have included Dyson...? I have contacts (senior management level) at a global Vehicle Manufacturer who are ready to "push the button" and leave the UK once we have left the EU, he said it's not going to be immediate, but the long term plan is there ready to be enacted - does that not worry you...?

You're pushing it if you want to suggest that Dyson going to Singapore is a result of Brexit. Singapore isn't in the EU either.

The car thing doesn't worry me. At present, 1.5m cars are made in the UK and 2m new cars are purchased, per annum. If it is worth manufacturers' while to leave the country because tariffs are too great, it will also be worth manufacturers' whiles to move into the country.

[RingoMcCartney]

OK, you can have that warm glow of a few forecasts being wrong (admittedly a number of those forecasts relate to after Brexit has been implemented so you don't actually know if they're wrong), reality is over-rated.

It's amazing how someone who was so keen to tell us he was so concerned about his fellow workers at the bottom of the pile is so blase about the possibility of them losing their jobs. You "won" though so that's the important thing.

Whos saying "I won"? Your putting words into my mouth.

Pointing out that when Remoaners are , once again, predicting post Leave, economic catastrophe, are the very same doom mongers whose previous prophecies simply have not materialised. Is not being "blase" it's simply a well needed reality check on Remoaner lies.

And isn't it an uncomfortable truth for middle class, metropolitan bubble dwelling Remoaners. That the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave.?

Reality bites and the truth hurts.

[RingoMcCartney]

What`s Brexit ?

Just wanted to be 1000th post !!

1000 and you ****** it up!

1000 and you ****** it up!

Hope it's one result you're willing to accept

[RingoMcCartney]

Capitalism - man exploits man.

Communism - the exact opposite.

[quoonbeatz]

Singapore isn't in the EU either.

But it does have a free trade deal with the EU.

[FactualFrank]

Sven-Göran Eriksson is on PM Questions.

[Burnley Ace]

Are you saying that there is a history of referendums not being enacted? As far as I remember, every referendum we have ever had has had its resulted enacted. Can you extend your analogy about the senior party to fit in with the Brexit referendum? Specifically, who is the senior partner equivalent who refused to sign off on this referendum? Because without that, your attempted extension to my analogy is just nonsense.

When you ask about referendums there have, in the last 1000 years only been 3 National Referendums. There was the non-binding Euro referendum in 1975 -67% in favour of the status quo however Wilson used the same tactic as Cameron in that he wrote a leaflet saying the Gov will accept your verdict.

Then there was the 2011 U.K. AV referendum - this was the first ever that committed the Gov (s9 of the Act) to implement the decision, no won and status quo remained.

Finally this referendum- which in Law and practice- can only be advisory and cannot commit a Gov to implement the result. If the Gov had to then there would be the equivalent of s9.

Your workplace analogy might be more appropriate if it was - you have discussed the department holiday arrangements with your line manager, having spoken to the board of directors they agree that in these unusual circumstances everyone can vote and they will act on the the result. Unlike the last vote where they had signed a legally binding agreement to implement the decision this wasn’t ised.

The result came back and it was a close decision- the BoD then made a decision that it was a close result that would have such a negative impact on the running of the business they felt, having been voted into their roles by the workforce to do what they think is best for everyone in the business not just that department, they wouldn’t implement the result.

The workers in your department and a couple of board members weren’t happy but the rest of the board, the other workers, the suppliers and the customers thought it was the best decision

[Burnley Ace]

That the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave.?

Reality bites and the truth hurts.

The majority of those workers didn’t get to vote! Do you think leaving the EU is actually going to improve workers rights and conditions (I don’t know whether to go with ? or !)

Who do you think is going to do all these zero hour jobs once the EU nationals stop coming?

[TVC15]

When i posted it...it showed as the 1000th post !!

The matter is now with my legal team and I've also employed Gina Miller as my advisor.

This to me sums up the whole of Brexit......its the thin end of the wedge and if we leave there will be many things happen that are inexplicable.

For the last 40 years we have been protected by our fellow Europeans and never has the internet been fudged like it has this morning.

Think on....think on

[Burnley Ace]

If the EU were to allow us to stay in the customs union and negotiate a bespoke single market alignment AND allow us an independent immigration policy then that would definitely have (imo) a lot of support in parliament and with both moderate leave and remain supporters.

If we stay in the CU we won’t be able (due to need for CET) to negotiate bi lateral agreements nor have any influence on new EU deals. We will have to pay a significant amount, possibly 10billion a year for SM access and comply with EU rules and regs. What bit of the immigration rules don’t you like and is leaving all the good things in the EU worth it just for that?

[dsr]

Your workplace analogy might be more appropriate if it was - you have discussed the department holiday arrangements with your line manager, having spoken to the board of directors they agree that in these unusual circumstances everyone can vote and they will act on the the result. Unlike the last vote where they had signed a legally binding agreement to implement the decision this wasn’t ised.

The result came back and it was a close decision- the BoD then made a decision that it was a close result that would have such a negative impact on the running of the business they felt, having been voted into their roles by the workforce to do what they think is best for everyone in the business not just that department, they wouldn’t implement the result.

The workers in your department and a couple of board members weren’t happy but the rest of the board, the other workers, the suppliers and the customers thought it was the best decision

I was trying to find a workplace analogy that made a bit of sense in the real world. Is yours remotely likely to happen?

[RingoMcCartney]

The majority of those workers didn’t get to vote! Do you think leaving the EU is actually going to improve workers rights and conditions (I don’t know whether to go with ? or !)

Who do you think is going to do all these zero hour jobs once the EU nationals stop coming?

The majority of those workers didn't get a vote"- source?

You didn't understand the concept of Popular Sovereignty. 

You clearly have never heard of the supply and demand

[Burnley Ace]

I was trying to find a workplace analogy that made a bit of sense in the real world. Is yours remotely likely to happen?

Perhaps no more than your business that has only ever, in its entire history, offered to pay a bonus twice and on one of those occasions drew up a legally binding agreement to promise to pay, especially as the legal position is they don’t have to pay if they don’t want to.

Perhaps you would be best of leaving the analogies

[aggi]

Whos saying "I won"? Your putting words into my mouth.

Pointing out that when Remoaners are , once again, predicting post Leave, economic catastrophe, are the very same doom mongers whose previous prophecies simply have not materialised. Is not being "blase" it's simply a well needed reality check on Remoaner lies.

And isn't it an uncomfortable truth for middle class, metropolitan bubble dwelling Remoaners. That the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave.?

Reality bites and the truth hurts.

It's getting to the point where these things aren't predictions though. Assets are actually being moved, companies are actually relocating, jobs are actually being lost. Reality does indeed bite.

[Burnley Ace]

The majority of those workers didn't get a vote"- source?

You didn't understand the concept of Popular Sovereignty. 

You clearly have never heard of the supply and demand

Aren’t the majority of Zero hour workers under 18 or EU citizens?

PS “is the political concept that the authority of a particular government is directly determined by the will and democratic agreement of the people it governs”

It’s a concept or doctrine however in this country we have a Representative Democracy not a popular one.

Supply and demand - what happens when we have full employment, when we don’t have the skilled workforce to take up these roles, what happens to inflation and interest rates?

[RingoMcCartney]

It's getting to the point where these things aren't predictions though. Assets are actually being moved, companies are actually relocating, jobs are actually being lost. Reality does indeed bite.

Without wanting to go round in circles.

Millions of manufacturing jobs have been lost and exported, during the 40 odd years of EU membership. That's been the biting reality for places like Burnley, Hartlepool, Middlesborough, Barnsley and Stoke.

And it's places like that that wanted to end the status quo by voting in millions, many for the first time because they thought they voice would finally be heard.

They voted Leave.

[summitclaret]

If the EU were to allow us to stay in the customs union and negotiate a bespoke single market alignment AND allow us an independent immigration policy then that would definitely have (imo) a lot of support in parliament and with both moderate leave and remain supporters.

Not a cat in hell's chance of that.

[RingoMcCartney]

Aren’t the majority of Zero hour workers under 18 or EU citizens?

PS “is the political concept that the authority of a particular government is directly determined by the will and democratic agreement of the people it governs”

It’s a concept or doctrine however in this country we have a Representative Democracy not a popular one.

Supply and demand - what happens when we have full employment, when we don’t have the skilled workforce to take up these roles, what happens to inflation and interest rates?

I said,

"those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers"


You said,

"The majority of those workers didn't get a vote"

You have still not provided a source.

There is Parliamentary sovereignty. When parliament delegated the decision whether or not to leave the European Union. It passed sovereignty to the People.

Supply and demand. Those who have been least able to afford it, have been forced to join the race to the bottom on wages. That was Ed milibands claim in 2015.

The former CEO of marks and Spencer admitted, in what was a pretty referendum own goal, that if we limit immigration , employers will have to more to its workers.

You ask,

"what happens when we have full employment, when we don’t have the skilled workforce to take up these roles,"

Then we have a skills based immigration policy that matches the nations needs and requirements with potential foreign workers. Something like New Zealand, Australia and Canada all seem to have pretty successfully.

[Mala591]

If we stay in the CU we won’t be able (due to need for CET) to negotiate bi lateral agreements nor have any influence on new EU deals. We will have to pay a significant amount, possibly 10billion a year for SM access and comply with EU rules and regs. What bit of the immigration rules don’t you like and is leaving all the good things in the EU worth it just for that?

As discussed by a previous poster I am of the opinion that a significant amount of major UK investment (Nissan, Toyota etc) was dependent on us being in the EU. TM has 'explained' that her withdrawal agreement/political declaration will allow frictionless trade to continue but I'm not convinced that will be the case.

I did seriously consider this vital issue when I voted but I was/am also extremely concerned that our open immigration policy (to EU citizens) might eventually lead to England becoming overpopulated (300,000 net annual immigration) and this concern swung my vote in favour of leave.

Therefor I can only support a deal which includes an independent immigration policy.

[Chobulous]

Without wanting to go round in circles.

I admire your persistence Ringo and some, but by no means all, of your points I have sympathy with but it's a bit late to make that statement.

[SGr]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087 ... 80736.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Class article here on all 72 laws that the EU “forced” on us.

Our own governments didn’t want these laws. Makes you think.

[Rick_Muller]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087 ... 80736.html

Class article here on all 72 laws that the EU “forced” on us.

Our own governments didn’t want these laws. Makes you think.

Fantastic link, thanks for that

[martin_p]

There is Parliamentary sovereignty. When parliament delegated the decision whether or not to leave the European Union. It passed sovereignty to the People.

You can continue to push that line, but it's actually been proved incorrect in a court of law. You're wrong.

[Lancasterclaret]

Absolute scream following the JRM alternative deal on twitter.

Ringo, you'd actually be regarded as a "moderate" by this lot.

Some of the claims they are making. Wow.

[RingoMcCartney]

I admire your persistence Ringo and some, but by no means all, of your points I have sympathy with but it's a bit late to make that statement.

Fair play. But if there's one thing we can all agree on its this. If I have been going round in circles, I haven't been on my own. I've been accompanied by voices from both sides of the argument.

[RingoMcCartney]

Absolute scream following the JRM alternative deal on twitter.

Ringo, you'd actually be regarded as a "moderate" by this lot.

Some of the claims they are making. Wow.

I'm not even the best moderate in the band.

[Chobulous]

Fair play. But if there's one thing we can all agree on its this. If I have been going round in circles, I haven't been on my own. I've been accompanied by voices from both sides of the argument.

I'll second that one

[RingoMcCartney]

You can continue to push that line, but it's actually been proved incorrect in a court of law. You're wrong.

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

I said his role "will be pivotal " And he was only being kept in position to "Stop Brexit "

So there we have it. The majority of Remain voters on here acknowledged I've been proven right. And fair play to them. Most commentators in the media agree his role was "pivotal" 

The independent describing Bercows role as "pivotal"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22691.html


The guardian describing Bercows role as "pivotal"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rexit-bias

The spectator describing Bercows role as " pivotal"

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... or-labour/


And the former speaker of the house, Betty Boothroyd, who had and still has, universal respect in parliament. Described what Bercow did as , "disgusting"


You're inability to accept I've been proven right, is now just down to your inability to stop being wrong.

Was his role "pivotal" or not?

Yes or no?

[SonofPog]

I noticed nobodies telling him that the links he keeps posting don't work.

[Burnley Ace]

I said,

"those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers"


You said,

"The majority of those workers didn't get a vote"

You have still not provided a source.

There is Parliamentary sovereignty. When parliament delegated the decision whether or not to leave the European Union. It passed sovereignty to the People.

Supply and demand. Those who have been least able to afford it, have been forced to join the race to the bottom on wages. That was Ed milibands claim in 2015.

The former CEO of marks and Spencer admitted, in what was a pretty referendum own goal, that if we limit immigration , employers will have to more to its workers.

You ask,

"what happens when we have full employment, when we don’t have the skilled workforce to take up these roles,"

Then we have a skills based immigration policy that matches the nations needs and requirements with potential foreign workers. Something like New Zealand, Australia and Canada all seem to have pretty successfully.

Lol you are such a pedant - what is your source that
the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave.? What source are you using to determine the nationality of Zero hour/ minimum wage workers?

PS holds that the legislative body has absolute sovereignty and is supreme over all other government institutions. Perhaps you could point to the legislation where our legislative body enacted a law stating that the result of this referendum had to be enacted by the Government?

It still doesn’t change the fact that the U.K. has a Representative Democracy and that beats all the other doctrines you quote, even if you use Capital Letters!

At the moment we have 32.5m in employment, 1.37m unemployed (4%) and 853,000 vacancies.

Wages are increasing- higher wages = increased costs/unit= increase in prices = higher inflation = higher interest rates = higher cost etc

[upanatem]

I can't find the post; but some months ago someone posted a comprehensive list of the distortions posed by the remain side prior to the referendum, such as each family would be £4000+ worse off per year, and there would be an immediate 'crisis' budget immediately following a 'leave' decision. Can anyone refer me to the post, or did someone viewing this thread post it? Thanks in advance.

[martin_p]

Ringo McCartney-

"Bercow is being kept on place to "Stop Brexit". His role will be pivotal"

Martin p -

"You do know it's not Bercow that will define what the vote is don't you? He's just the the facilitator Ringo"

I said his role "will be pivotal " And he was only being kept in position to "Stop Brexit "

So there we have it. The majority of Remain voters on here acknowledged I've been proven right. And fair play to them. Most commentators in the media agree his role was "pivotal" 

The independent describing Bercows role as "pivotal"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22691.html


The guardian describing Bercows role as "pivotal"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rexit-bias

The spectator describing Bercows role as " pivotal"

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/j" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... or-labour/


And the former speaker of the house, Betty Boothroyd, who had and still has, universal respect in parliament. Described what Bercow did as , "disgusting"


You're inability to accept I've been proven right, is now just down to your inability to stop being wrong.

Was his role "pivotal" or not?

Yes or no?

No. It hasn’t changed the outcome of Brexit one iota, just (hopefully) given more time to sort it out rather than let May sit on her hands for a month.

[RingoMcCartney]

Lol you are such a pedant - what is your source that
the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave.? What source are you using to determine the nationality of Zero hour/ minimum wage workers?

PS holds that the legislative body has absolute sovereignty and is supreme over all other government institutions. Perhaps you could point to the legislation where our legislative body enacted a law stating that the result of this referendum had to be enacted by the Government?

It still doesn’t change the fact that the U.K. has a Representative Democracy and that beats all the other doctrines you quote, even if you use Capital Letters!

At the moment we have 32.5m in employment, 1.37m unemployed (4%) and 853,000 vacancies.

Wages are increasing- higher wages = increased costs/unit= increase in prices = higher inflation = higher interest rates = higher cost etc

House of Lords Library Briefing I Referendums and Parliamentary Democracy 1
1. Referendums in the UK1.1 Overview of the Use of Referendums in the UKThe Electoral Commission defines a referendum as a “direct vote in which an entire electorate is asked to answer a question on a particular proposal”.1It is often referred to as an example of ‘DIRECT DEMOCRACY ’, whereby citizens are directly involved in decision making. This contrasts to ‘representative democracy’, whereby the decisions are made by elected representatives (eg in a parliamentary system).

I said,

"Those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers"

You said,

"The majority of those workers didn't get a vote"

You have still not provided a source.

And I assume you approve of a skills based immigration policy.?

[martin_p]

So what do all you democracy loving Brexiteers think of Rees-Moggs suggestion of temporarily closing parliament to stop an anti no deal bill going through? Seems he only wants sovereignty when it’s doing what he wants.

[Burnley Ace]

I’ve noticed when you cannot answer a question you keep repeating that Burcow will be pivotal in stopping Brexit but you never say how - do you disagree with his differentiation of “amendment” and “debate” or is it his interpretation of “forthwith” that you find so pivotal?

[Lancasterclaret]

They will be all for it of course.

I mean, one Brexiteer MP was quite happy to ask another country to intervene to make sure we left on march 29th

Don't you just hate it when traitors and enemies of the country are actually in your own parliament?

[Burnley Ace]

House of Lords Library Briefing I Referendums and Parliamentary Democracy 1
1. Referendums in the UK1.1 Overview of the Use of Referendums in the UKThe Electoral Commission defines a referendum as a “direct vote in which an entire electorate is asked to answer a question on a particular proposal”.1It is often referred to as an example of ‘DIRECT DEMOCRACY ’, whereby citizens are directly involved in decision making. This contrasts to ‘representative democracy’, whereby the decisions are made by elected representatives (eg in a parliamentary system).

I said,

"Those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers"

You said,

"The majority of those workers didn't get a vote"

You have still not provided a source.

And I assume you approve of a skills based immigration policy.?

I know what a referendum is - you haven’t provided your authority that this was a binding referendum the result of which the Gov were legally obliged to implement.

You haven’t provided your source “that the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave” which is actually what you wrote.

Whilst we have 853,000 vacancies and only 4% unemployment what source are you relying on that we have an over capacity of skilled workers or even non skilled workers that cannot be controlled by existing legislation?

At the moment we don’t need a skills based Immigration system.

[RingoMcCartney]

No. It hasn’t changed the outcome of Brexit one iota, just (hopefully) given more time to sort it out rather than let May sit on her hands for a month.

Last week a tory MP attempted to ammend a motion. It would have put a sunset clause into the Irish Backstop issue. This was seen by many commentators as having the ability to galvanise the Tories and see enough to get on side to get Mays deal through. Bercow rejected it. Therefore increasing the likelihood of another referendum , given time and options are running out. And a sizable number of MPs want it.

The Speaker of the House, handed MPs a chance to change the Brexit timetable - and in doing so broke with centuries of historic precedent. If that's NOT a pivotal moment in British political history, I don't know what is.

Simply burying your head in the sand, because not to do so, would mean you having to admit, pretty much what everyone else can see, which is, Bercows role has been "pivotal". Is just pig headed and stubborn.

Most fair minded people agree it has and my prediction , made back in November has been proven correct.

But that's not you Martin is it. It's fair minded people.

[RingoMcCartney]

I know what a referendum is - you haven’t provided your authority that this was a binding referendum the result of which the Gov were legally obliged to implement.

You haven’t provided your source “that the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave” which is actually what you wrote.

Whilst we have 853,000 vacancies and only 4% unemployment what source are you relying on that we have an over capacity of skilled workers or even non skilled workers that cannot be controlled by existing legislation?

At the moment we don’t need a skills based Immigration system.

You asked me what we'd do when we can no longer fill jobs.

You say we don't need a skills based immigration policy at the moment.

The jobs market is not static

We could and should use one in the future as and when our requirements dictate.

[martin_p]

Last week a tory MP attempted to ammend a motion. It would have put a sunset clause into the Irish Backstop issue. This was seen by many commentators as having the ability to galvanise the Tories and see enough to get on side to get Mays deal through. Bercow rejected it. Therefore increasing the likelihood of another referendum , given time and options are running out. And a sizable number of MPs want it.

The Speaker of the House, handed MPs a chance to change the Brexit timetable - and in doing so broke with centuries of historic precedent. If that's NOT a pivotal moment in British political history, I don't know what is.

Simply burying your head in the sand, because not to do so, would mean you having to admit, pretty much what everyone else can see, which is, Bercows role has been "pivotal". Is just pig headed and stubborn.

Most fair minded people agree it has and my prediction , made back in November has been proven correct.

But that's not you Martin is it. It's fair minded people.

So I ask again, what’s it changed that is of any significance? What has actually ‘pivoted’? You can quote other people’s views as much as you want and if you want to just blithely follow those views without questioning that’s your perogative. But don’t expect others to read that his role has been pivotal without wondering what it has actually changed.

[RingoMcCartney]

You haven’t provided your source “that the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers, of whom they've suddenly found a recent need to save from themselves. Wanted to end the status quo and voted Leave” which is actually what you wrote.

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vo ... ortunities" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Taken from the Joseph rowntree foundation report. Titled "Brexit vote explained- poverty low skilled and lack of opportunities.

The poorest households, with incomes of less than £20,000 per year, were much more likely to support leaving the EU than the wealthiest households, as were the unemployed, people in low-skilled and manual occupations, people who feel that their financial situation has worsened, and those with no qualification

Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver.

Now where's YOUR source that "They didn't get a vote".....

[aggi]

Last week a tory MP attempted to ammend a motion. It would have put a sunset clause into the Irish Backstop issue. This was seen by many commentators as having the ability to galvanise the Tories and see enough to get on side to get Mays deal through. Bercow rejected it. Therefore increasing the likelihood of another referendum , given time and options are running out. And a sizable number of MPs want it.

He allowed an amendment which sought to give the UK the right to terminate the Irish border backstop without the agreement of the EU (it lost 600 to 24) and another noting the Irish border backstop is temporary and calls for the UK Government to give notice on January 1 2022 that it will terminate the Withdrawal Treaty if it becomes clear that the EU will not agree to remove the backstop was also selected.

The issue with the sunset clause is that MPs would have been voting to approve a deal that hadn't actually been offered.

[RingoMcCartney]

So I ask again, what’s it changed that is of any significance? What has actually ‘pivoted’? You can quote other people’s views as much as you want and if you want to just blithely follow those views without questioning that’s your perogative. But don’t expect others to read that his role has been pivotal without wondering what it has actually changed.

You can stop trolling now Marty.

But it's fine by me if you want to carry on being wrong and looking silly.......

[martin_p]

You can stop trolling now Marty.

But it's fine by me if you want to carry on being wrong and looking silly.......

I’m not the one avoiding answering questions. But the ‘trolling’ thing is your standard response when you don’t have one so I guess I shouldn’t expect any to be forthcoming.

[Burnley Ace]

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vo ... ortunities

Taken from the Joseph rowntree foundation report. Titled "Brexit vote explained- poverty low skilled and lack of opportunities.

The poorest households, with incomes of less than £20,000 per year, were much more likely to support leaving the EU than the wealthiest households, as were the unemployed, people in low-skilled and manual occupations, people who feel that their financial situation has worsened, and those with no qualification

Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver.

Now where's YOUR source that "They didn't get a vote".....

I can play the pedant as well - JRT report “poorest households on less than 20k, unemployed, low skilled etc. You wrote “That the majority of those minimum waged, temporary contracted, zero hours workers”

Where is your evidence, what is your source, that those two groups are the same? You haven’t made a presumption have you?

That would be like me drawing the conclusion that it was old, poor and stupid people that were the main drivers behind Leave