More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[martin_p]

Do you mean “proof”? If not, I give up.

I tried my best, though.

Give it up mate, there really is little point.

[RingoMcCartney]

Do you mean “proof”? If not, I give up.

I tried my best, though.

You were the one that provided the Oxford English dictionary definition of evidence!

Did you read it yourself!?

And again, when was the last time a nation, with all those specific attractions to people who'd love to be here, leave a socio political and economic bloc?

It's never happened. Consequently, there are only opinions, forecasts and predictions. Both optimistic and pessimistic.

But absolutely no evidence that confirm either of those opposing viewpoints. None.

[Lancasterclaret]

Summit

- a jump and 3 points v the bindippers

You?

[CrosspoolClarets]

Agree that we don't want Trump, and we won't get Trump.

Farage has never come close to winning an election here where people actually gave a toss about it (EU elections don't count, because no one here understood that it actually mattered whom you voted in) so that won't happen.

I'm struggling to understand how your authoritarian / libertarian spectrum works here though. I'd say the majority of Brexit voters (older, more affluent ) are authoritarian, in some cases extremley authoritarian, or are we talking about this in an economic sense, rather than a political sense?

Here you go Lancs. This link is well worth reading, because to me it is the reason why not respecting the vote will end up worsening this situation, it won’t simply blow over.

http://spearheadresearch.org/index.php/ ... omy-stupid

Kaufman’s brilliant research at the LSE (an institution lauded by most Remainers I recall) suggests several things. One interesting line in this is to think “successful plumber” rather than poor, uneducated, thick northern racist. The bit in quotes is his bit.

The other brilliant bit in there is the question posed in polling, “Do you feel your child should be well mannered or considerate?”. There is a huge link to who voted what, social scientists know that the former pushes authoritarian buttons, the latter libertarian buttons.

[RingoMcCartney]

Give it up mate, there really is little point.

Hey Marty's back!

Where is it!? The evidence!?

What do you mean you've only got a hunch!?

You get the keys to the Delorean, and all you come back with is exactly what I've got. An opinion! You Schmuck!

[Lancasterclaret]

Cheers Crosspool will have a look after the CL

[Greenmile]

Give it up mate, there really is little point.

I think you might be right.

Sorry for derailing the thread, everyone.

[RingoMcCartney]

I think you might be right.

Sorry for derailing the thread, everyone.

Your analogies about jumping off cliffs and cracking eggs would have been relevant to an event that has happened repeatedly. And is about to happen again.

A country that, till now has had open borders, has now voted to have control over it's borders. The effects of that decision are an unknown quantity. So rather than adopt the "I tried, but there's just no getting through to some people" approach. Just admit, your analogies are as worthless as they are irrelevant.

And I'll say to you, exactly what I said to Martin.

If you're so confident there IS evidence that leaving the EU and ending free movement of people, will not have an effect on people trafficking and slavery. Then simply produce it. Produce it Greenmile......

[Greenmile]

Your analogies about jumping off cliffs and cracking eggs would have been relevant to an event that has happened repeatedly. And is about to happen again.

In my analogy, nobody has ever jumped off a cliff before but someone has dropped an egg on the floor. Remember when I said “(NB - this still holds true even if nobody had ever jumped off a cliff before in the whole of history)”?

If you're so confident there IS evidence that leaving the EU and ending free movement of people, will not have an effect on people trafficking and slavery. Then simply produce it. Produce it Greenmile......

There’s evidence that it won’t, and there’s evidence that it will. It’s up to you to weigh up that evidence and make up your mind which is the more compelling.

(sorry again, everyone)

[aggi]

No disrespect but do you really think I can be arsed to read 19 pages.

Why not just summarise it. Jesus!

It's ok, you can just watch the film rather than reading it.

https://youtu.be/lG7DGMgfOb8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

In my analogy, nobody has ever jumped off a cliff before but someone has dropped an egg on the floor. Remember when I said “(NB - this still holds true even if nobody had ever jumped off a cliff before in the whole of history)”?




There’s evidence that it won’t, and there’s evidence that it will. It’s up to you to weigh up that evidence and make up your mind which is the more compelling.

(sorry again, everyone)

This public apologising that you're doing, is so patronising. I'm sorry you have to tolerate me.

If, as you say, there evidence to support both sides. Then simply produce it.

And what you're trying to call "evidence" will just be opinion, predictions or forecasts.

[Greenmile]

I’m just apologising for taking the thread off topic, not for engaging with you.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

I’m just apologising for taking the thread off topic, not for engaging with you.

There really is no point in argueing with Ringo, he's absolutely witless, he'll just bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

[martin_p]

I'm sorry you have to tolerate me.

We’re all sorry about that!

[RingoMcCartney]

I’m just apologising for taking the thread off topic, not for engaging with you.

Fair enough.

Back up your claim by producing evidence.

It should be based on a densely populated island nation, that has a benefits system that acts as a magnet, that has a minimum wage, that has a health system free at point of contact, that has legislation that protects religious, ethnic and sexual minorities, left a socio political and economic bloc. And having done so, had it's impact on people trafficking, exploitation and slavery been assessed?

Evidence. Not opinion. Not forecasts. Not estimates. Not predictions.

Over to you Greenmile. Think you'll be needing to borrow the Delorean keys of Martin.

[RingoMcCartney]

We’re all sorry about that!

Somebody proves you wrong and you get all bitter and twisted!

[Paul Waine]

Getting a little puzzled at some of the "science" on this thread:

I think it was established a long time ago that the earth rotates around the sun as well as turning on it's axis every 24 hours. In science the sun "doesn't rise every morning;" it's the earth rotating, while the sun's position is fixed relative to the earth.

And, whether it is an egg dropped on a floor, or a larger object falling from a greater height, they are both effected by gravity and they can both accelerate accordingly and when they reach the bottom can be travelling at a speed that will cause damage to the respective falling object.

[RingoMcCartney]

Dozens of studies that asess the impact of Brexit on various parts of the economy, were published by the government last week. - For the UTC message board Remoaners that's evidence.

For Ringo McCartney it's - "what might happen if" report. But it certainly isn't evidence.

Evening gents.

[Greenmile]

You’re overthinking it, Paul. It’s more about English (specifically, the meaning of the word “evidence”) than science.

[Lancasterclaret]

I've not seen them yet Ringo, and neither have you.

Nor will we, and its really, really obvious why that is.

[RingoMcCartney]

I've not seen them yet Ringo, and neither have you.

Nor will we, and its really, really obvious why that is.

But you're missing the point entirely Lancs.

Whatever they contain about each section of the economy. Good, bad or ugly. They are not evidence. They are predictions. Assumptions. Assessments. Forecasts. Opinions. Beliefs.

But they are not evidence.

[Lancasterclaret]

I give up

So your argument for Brexit is that its impossible to say, even if we do loads and loads of studies of it , that it will be a disaster, even though exactly the same reason could be used for it being a success.

Basically, you base everything you do on a "hunch"

**** me, we might as well sacrifice a chicken and check its entrails to see if Brexit will work.

[If it be your will]

In my analogy, nobody has ever jumped off a cliff before but someone has dropped an egg on the floor. Remember when I said “(NB - this still holds true even if nobody had ever jumped off a cliff before in the whole of history)”?




There’s evidence that it won’t, and there’s evidence that it will. It’s up to you to weigh up that evidence and make up your mind which is the more compelling.

(sorry again, everyone)

Watch this! (Particularly at 0:37)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUTH7TDqp48" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

I give up

So your argument for Brexit is that its impossible to say, even if we do loads and loads of studies of it , that it will be a disaster, even though exactly the same reason could be used for it being a success.

Basically, you base everything you do on a "hunch"

**** me, we might as well sacrifice a chicken and check its entrails to see if Brexit will work.

Are you purposely missing the point deliberately!? Really!?

I've been on about the difference between opinion and evidence about the effect of the UK leaving the European Union and ending free movement of people. And it's effects on people trafficking and slavery.

And you seem to want to go off on a rant about how bad it's all gonna Be! I've done that one to death with you. And we disagree. Fine.

There's a clue in the title of them. They were called "economic impact assessments". That's assessments. Not evidence.

[Right_winger]

The main problem with brexit is the majority of the political establishment are against it. In/out shake it all about half measures will not work and as have been proved so far are alienating every side of the debate. Full fat Brexit ( hard/no deal ) or not at all are the only 2 alternatives, anything in between is a stitch up.

[Lancasterclaret]

It deosn't matter if its a stitch up or not thou.

Not everyone wants a hard brexit, not everyone wants no brexit, but most can cope with a soft one.

As long as the govt remains so weak, we've no chance of getting a Brexit that will work and will be acceptable to a majority.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not interested in the debate about trafficking, as its a minor part (albeit a serious one) of the much more important and essential free movement of people.

Your point is essentially trying to tell us all that any studies, journals, opinion pieces etc etc etc can be ignored because they are not evidence.

They are based on the available evidence to form a conclusion.

Your position is backed up by your refusal to accept any of those things as "evidence". I'm not going to bother doing another analogy, because I think you are being ever so slightly facetious about this!

It at least explains your support for Brexit if you are being serious though

[Damo]

Are these negotiations going in any way other than the direction people expected them to?
I mean did none of you see the issues encountered arising?
It seems to me that the only people surprised at things like the Irish border and the exit tax are remainers.

If this isn't the case then I really don't get the hysteria sourounding these processes of the negotiations

[Lancasterclaret]

You clearly are not watching or reading ANY news.

The only people who are surprised at this are leavers.

And IDS, but he's a total buffoon so he's got a pass

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm not interested in the debate about trafficking, as its a minor part (albeit a serious one) of the much more important and essential free movement of people.

Your point is essentially trying to tell us all that any studies, journals, opinion pieces etc etc etc can be ignored because they are not evidence.

They are based on the available evidence to form a conclusion.

Your position is backed up by your refusal to accept any of those things as "evidence". I'm not going to bother doing another analogy, because I think you are being ever so slightly facetious about this!

It at least explains your support for Brexit if you are being serious though

You can't help the sanctimonious sneering can you - "It at least explains your support for brexit" In other words I'm thick. Any way moving on.

You've done something that you do a lot. You've made an assumption. Here it comes-

"Your point is essentially trying to tell us all that any studies, journals, opinion pieces etc etc etc can be ignored because they are not evidence."

Where have I said that the economic impact assessments can be ignored. Where!?

You may not be interested in the debate I've been in all evening. But don't accuse me of things I haven't said.

But it's notable that for all the Remoaner huffing and puffing. Not a single one of you has been able to provide a single scrap of evidence. Evidence that ending free movement of people will not help to stop exploitation and people trafficking. Despite numerous opportunities, not one with a single scrap of evidence. Nada. Nowt. Sod all.

Because it just doesn't exist. It cannot till we leave........

[Damo]

You clearly are not watching or reading ANY news.

Yes. Although I try to find it from impartial sources.
Perhaps that's where the conflict arises

[Lancasterclaret]

You can't help the sanctimonious sneering can you - "It at least explains your support for brexit" In other words I'm thick. Any way moving on.

Nope, never implied that at all.

Using your argument against you, you are effectively saying that its impossible to use any facts because they are not facts, they are only assumptions based on the available evidence.

The reason it sounds so ace for Brexit is that immediately becomes impossible to disprove.

[Lancasterclaret]

Which impartial sources Damo, all the major channels are full of Brexiteers acting shocked. Thats Sky, BBC, ITV, Channel 4

[Healeywoodclaret]

Thank you.

And sorry - I went too far and was out of order in post 1052 above (and maybe earlier too - I’ve not read back through). In my defence I got a little frustrated with you answering my question with questions (which I feel I tried to answer). And I still think incitement to violence (not a threat, admittedly) was also out of order, but if you genuinely didn’t pick up on the double meaning, it was a little more understandable.

And I'm broken hearted that we are not friends on this message board - not literally of course!

[Siddo]

Hey Marty's back!

Where is it!? The evidence!?

What do you mean you've only got a hunch!?

You get the keys to the Delorean, and all you come back with is exactly what I've got. An opinion! You Schmuck!

Ringo is the evidence that not everyone that voted to leave is a racist, but every racist voted to leave.

I suggest that not everyone that voted to leave is thick, but every thick person voted to leave.

Oh, I forgot, I lost. I really should begin to get over it. I would love to see a study of how long a leave voter considered the ramifications of their vote compared to someone that voted to stay.

How much thought did you give it Ringo? I deliberated for days.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo is the evidence that not everyone that voted to leave is a racist, but every racist voted to leave.

I suggest that not everyone that voted to leave is thick, but every thick person voted to leave.

Oh, I forgot, I lost. I really should begin to get over it. I would love to see a study of how long a leave voter considered the ramifications of their vote compared to someone that voted to stay.

How much thought did you give it Ringo? I deliberated for days.

1. Where is your EVIDENCE that all racists voted Leave? I suggest it's your OPINION.

2. Where is your EVIDENCE that all thick people voted Leave? I suggest it's your OPINION.

3. You only deliberated over it for DAYS!? I'd been looking at our relationship with the EU for YEARS.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nope, never implied that at all.

Using your argument against you, you are effectively saying that its impossible to use any facts because they are not facts, they are only assumptions based on the available evidence.

The reason it sounds so ace for Brexit is that immediately becomes impossible to disprove.

Your saying that assumptions are facts. You are.
The economic assessment of the impact of brexit are not facts. They're assumptions based on modelling , probably. They're forecasts. Predictions.

I'm not saying they should be ignored. You're trying to put words In my mouth to try to distract from my specific argument.

Which is until the UK leaves the European Union and we end free movement of people. There is no evidence that it will not help stop exploitation and people trafficking. None.

If there is. Like I said to Martin p and Greenmile. If there is. Post it on here.

[Lancasterclaret]

No Brexit impact statements done.

We are ******.

[JohnMcGreal]

Davis ought to be sacked.

[Tall Paul]

No Brexit impact statements done.

We are ******.

It's fine.

It won't be possible to assess the impact of Brexit until it has actually happened anyway.

[Bacchus]

The government should fall over this. It's a complete dereliction of duty. Regardless of where you stand on Brexit, the idea that the government applying it hasn't done any assessment of how it will impact the economy renders it completely unfit for purpose. The fact that Davis has spent months in Parliament lying about this should see him facing charges.

[UpTheBeehole]

The government should fall over this. It's a complete dereliction of duty. Regardless of where you stand on Brexit, the idea that the government applying it hasn't done any assessment of how it will impact the economy renders it completely unfit for purpose. The fact that Davis has spent months in Parliament lying about this should see him facing charges.

I agree with Bill Esterson:

The Labour MP Bill Esterson, a shadow business minister, says Davis’s evidence shows he is either “incredibly incompetent” or “incredibly dishonest”.

[UpTheBeehole]

Davis says he is already late for his next appointment.

The arrogance of this c*nt.

[JohnMcGreal]

Davis says cabinet took decision to leave the customs unions without an analysis of the economic impact.

Absolutely staggering. What the hell is happening?

[RocketLawnChair]

Perhaps he could ask the opposition if he can borrow their impact assessments. Surely a shadow cabinet is prepared for such a scenario.

[UpTheBeehole]

Perhaps he could ask the opposition if he can borrow their impact assessments. Surely a shadow cabinet is prepared for such a scenario.

I think they're preparing to be the actual cabinet before long.

This government can't survive this, surely.

There's never been a government as deceitful and incompetent as this.

[RingoMcCartney]

It's fine.

It won't be possible to assess the impact of Brexit until it has actually happened anyway.

Good fishing Paul!

Youre wrong. It's absolutely possible to assess the impact of brexit on the economy. But it can only be just that. An assessment of what could happen, given certain variables. It's a prediction. A forecast.

But until we've actually left, it will be physically impossible to ascertain whether the assessment was right, wrong or otherwise.

Once we've left their will be actual tangible black and white evidence.

And that was my point. I only have an opinion. Martin p only had an opinion. Neither of us had evidence. There can be no EVIDENCE of whether or not the UK leaving the European Union and ending free movement of people of people will not have helped people trafficking and slavery. Till we've left.

If there is evidence, like I said to Martin p and Greenmile and Lancaster claret, post it on here. No forecasts, no Predictions, no opinions. Evidence.

[UpTheBeehole]

If there is evidence, like I said to Martin p and Greenmile and Lancaster claret, post it on here. No forecasts, no Predictions, no opinions. Evidence.

Any evidence of the racist asian ghosts in Batley yet?

[RocketLawnChair]

I think they're preparing to be the actual cabinet before long.

This government can't survive this, surely.

There's never been a government as deceitful and incompetent as this.

Great ! So they are prepared, this means they can shout their projected impact assessments from the rooftops.

Well probably not because if asked they probably haven’t ******* done any either.

Rather than trying to trip each other up all the time at every opportunity why don’t they try and work together and get whats best for all of us. I can tell you why not, because every last one of them is ******* incapable...

[RingoMcCartney]

Any evidence of the racist asian ghosts in Batley yet?

Not got a clue what you're on about.

Nowt new there then!