Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Darthlaw]

they aren't going to stop supplying us as soon as we leave

I wouldn't put it past Don Juncker, Don Tusk or Capo Barnier to suggest it as another threat for leaving the protection racket, sorry... Union.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I’m not saying life would be easy without electricity, if the EU provided water I’d be worried, that’s what you need to ask yourself though what do we essentially need in order to survive.

Is this what is come down to?

[scrambledclaret]

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/essential
Suggest you & Mr McGreal digest the meaning of the word.

Ok, I'll bite. Talk me through your first month without electricity and how you intend to survive. You do realise it does more than power the telly right?

[taio]

Ok, I'll bite. Talk me through your first month without electricity and how you intend to survive. You do realise it does more than power the telly right?

You shouldn't have bitten - it's one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here for ages.

[Darthlaw]

So aggi suggests in post #1087 that we can’t get electricity without the EU and Jakub is the one being called out...

#RemainLogic

[Spiral]

I posted a good while ago that in the absolute worst case scenario we'd be subjecting ourselves to wartime conditions and states of affair without the violence, but never in my wildest imagination did I ever think I'd see the day where brexiteers actually start internalising it! Any other aspects of modern civilisation we can nonchalantly chuck on the funeral pyre of the country in service of this death cult?

[Spiral]

So aggi suggests in post #1087 that we can’t get electricity without the EU and Jakub is the one being called out...

#RemainLogic

Energy shortages are a viable possibility, if a highly unlikely one. The idea of life being unaffected by energy shortages and the inference that it's a price worth paying is a little more ridiculous.

Don't use a hashtag outside of twitter, mate. Makes you sound like a knob.

[Darthlaw]

Show where me or Jakub said they weren’t a possibility.

Alternatively I’ve pointed you to a direct post which contained bullshit that you guys have chosen to ignore in order to try and bully Jakub.

And you have the temerity to suggest I’m a knob.

Spiral Logic.

[Colburn_Claret]

Being denied membership benefits when we're no longer a member is not a punishment.



Embarrassing.

Wake up, a deal that suits all parties is easily achieved, and the rest of Europe wants a deal just as much as we do. It's only the EU, in fear of Brexit being seen as a success, that is preventing it.
They are trying to punish us. The pedantic fools can't see that they are punishing the rest of Europe as well.

I don't expect to get the benefits of being a member, they are trying to deny us leaving by putting as many obstacles in our way as possible, enthused by the moaners in and out of Westminster.

We could have helped ourselves a lot more by making it clear from the beginning that we weren't going to cave in, but that ship has sailed.

Without bias, forget about us, ask yourself how a No Deal Brexit benefits Europe. If you can find something, anything, please share it with the rest of us. Especially Lancs, as he hasn't been able to tell me either, I'm sure he'd like to know.

[Jakubclaret]

Ok, I'll bite. Talk me through your first month without electricity and how you intend to survive. You do realise it does more than power the telly right?

My turn to bite, when someone can answer what do we ESSENTIALLY need from the EU we can’t get in the UK? In the modern world we dont require Dutch cheese or German engineering, we’ve all seen how much they pollute the environment. The minister of defence today announced we’ll repurpose ferry’s into warships, why not use these to take back the North Sea oil, then the EU will need us.

[Darthlaw]

why not use these to take back the North Sea oil, then the EU will need us.

OK Jakub, now you’re talking about starting conflict...In the words of Mr Bannatyne “I’m oot”.

[Jakubclaret]

Taking back what was rightfully ours, something spineless remainers seem to dislike

[Colburn_Claret]

We've heard that argument so many times and essentially it comes down to the same answer.
Whatever hit the EU takes is divided by 27, whereas the UK takes the full hit. Meanwhile the 27 will continue to operate as before whilst we stockpile food and medicines, secure our borders, seek out new deals, security arrangements, and so many other things.
Now imagine it were one of the other 27 leaving with potentially "no deal". As one of the remaining 27 how much do you think we would be panicking or concerned? Not much, in fact our tabloid press would most likely be having a laugh.

We wouldn't be panicking because our economy is strong and stable.
The 27 will continue to operated as before.....rubbish.
For a start our trade with Europe is probably as high as at least 20 of the other countries added together.
Add to that, they are losing £39billion a year, money that can't be written off, it has to be replaced by someone.
On the other hand we have saved £39billion a year.
Add to that that so many countries in Europe are either in recession or stagnant.
Add to that the Italian banks that are about to collapse.
Add to that those countries who are exporting to us are going to have to pay tarrifs on those exports.


You are blinketed if you think we walk away and the rest of Europe carries on as if nothing happened.

[aggi]

So aggi suggests in post #1087 that we can’t get electricity without the EU and Jakub is the one being called out...

#RemainLogic

Well, as of 20 minutes ago, about 10% of our electricity was coming from the EU.

[Spiral]

Show where me or Jakub said they weren’t a possibility.

Alternatively I’ve pointed you to a direct post which contained bullshit that you guys have chosen to ignore in order to try and bully Jakub.

And you have the temerity to suggest I’m a knob.

Spiral Logic.

Ha ha okay okay okay, let's slow down a bit.

First, your assumptions: nobody is calling you a knob and nobody is bullying anyone so calm your tits.

Secondly, this debate is overtly hyperbolic, deliberately, but I think Jakub was being serious when he suggested we can live without electricity. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt and pretending he means energy imports, it's quite entertaining to see someone internalise the reality of energy shortages before even rejecting it as a notion or considering ways in which it could be avoided. Even looking at his biomass and fracking solutions, that's putting undue faith in emerging (embryonic at a national level) technology (bio) and an unreliable short term tech (fracking), and in any case we have about six and a half weeks until Brexit day so we'd better get our skates on!

[Jakubclaret]

Ha ha okay okay okay, let's slow down a bit.

First, your assumptions: nobody is calling you a knob and nobody is bullying anyone so calm your tits.

Secondly, this debate is overtly hyperbolic, deliberately, but I think Jakub was being serious when he suggested we can live without electricity. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt and pretending he means energy imports, it's quite entertaining to see someone internalise the reality of energy shortages before even rejecting it as a notion or considering ways in which it could be avoided. Even looking at his biomass and fracking solutions, that's putting undue faith in emerging (embryonic at a national level) technology (bio) and an unreliable short term tech (fracking), and in any case we have about six and a half weeks until Brexit day so we'd better get our skates on!

The only thing stopping fracking being viable is people’s objections and strict government policy, same with nuclear power. The science behind it isn’t new.

[Spiral]

Have you considered that there are reasons for strict regulation on fracking?

It's a very short-term energy solution, by the way. Fracking wells only operate for about a year or two.

[Jakubclaret]

Have you considered that there are reasons for strict regulation on fracking?

It's a very short-term energy solution, by the way. Fracking wells only operate for about a year or two.

Then you relocate to another suitable site. Other methods such as wind power could produce massive amounts of energy as we have the most coastline out of any country in Europe, if only citie yuppies weren’t worried about their countryside/sea view being spoiled.

[Darthlaw]

Jakub asked “On a day to day basis, what do you essentially need from the EU that you couldn’t get within the UK? ”

I'll start with electricity.

Now you’re saying 10% comes from the EU. So where is the other 90% coming from if we can’t get it in the UK?

[aggi]

Jakub asked “On a day to day basis, what do you essentially need from the EU that you couldn’t get within the UK? ”



Now you’re saying 10% comes from the EU. So where is the other 90% coming from if we can’t get it in the UK?

Well that comes from the UK, but I'd say that we all need electricity. I was assuming that Jakub's question related to the whole country, if we could only provide 10% of the country with drinking water we wouldn't say that the UK could provide it.

[scrambledclaret]

My turn to bite, when someone can answer what do we ESSENTIALLY need from the EU we can’t get in the UK? In the modern world we dont require Dutch cheese or German engineering, we’ve all seen how much they pollute the environment. The minister of defence today announced we’ll repurpose ferry’s into warships, why not use these to take back the North Sea oil, then the EU will need us.

Electricity we need, we import some of it from the EU. The lights won't go out overnight but it would become more expensive in a no deal scenario. To suggest that it isn't essential is silly, to suggest it getting more expensive isn't a problem is too.

You've lost me a bit with the cheese, ferries and oil part though.

[Jakubclaret]

Electricity we need, we import some of it from the EU. The lights won't go out overnight but it would become more expensive in a no deal scenario. To suggest that it isn't essential is silly, to suggest it getting more expensive isn't a problem is too.

You've lost me a bit with the cheese, ferries and oil part though.

If you had to adapt & you didn’t have any other choice, it’s absolutely amazing & ingenious what the mind & body can do when it has to.

[scrambledclaret]

If you had to adapt & you didn’t have any other choice, it’s absolutely amazing & ingenious what the mind & body can do when it has to.

You can make electricity (and Dutch cheese) with your mind?

Seriously though, are you really suggesting we have no other choice than to return to the stone age?

[Jakubclaret]

You can make electricity (and Dutch cheese) with your mind?

Seriously though, are you really suggesting we have no other choice than to return to the stone age?

Domestic energy production will replace any jobs lost to leaving Europe and will be a boost to the economy as we will have cheaper prices.

[Spiral]

Erm, real life is a little more complex than what you find in a real-time-strategy game. *Energy output stat is down, dump unemployment points into the power plant stat, activate deforestation, purge foreign aid stat, boost navy stat, blockade north sea*

Then Gandhi invades!

You don't do that in six weeks.

It's incredible what people will subject themselves and others to in service of a higher cause.

[scrambledclaret]

Domestic energy production will replace any jobs lost to leaving Europe and will be a boost to the economy as we will have cheaper prices.

Well I'm not sure I totally agree but at least it's a plan. I'm fact I bet you the UK doesn't see a fall in prices or a net gain in jobs in the case of a no deal brexit.

Furthermore, I get that there are more reasons to vote leave than simply the economic ones that the debate often gets reduced to. I probably disagree with you on those too but that's OK, just stop trying to suggest we don't need stuff like energy.

[Paul Waine]

Have you considered that there are reasons for strict regulation on fracking?

It's a very short-term energy solution, by the way. Fracking wells only operate for about a year or two.

Hi Spiral,

1) do you know that "all" scientists believe that the current restirctions on fracking are much too tight. They suggest that, based on science, the limits could be the same as they are for quarrying and other "traditional" industries.

2) I believe you are confusing the decline profile of a single well (if that is the correct term) from the production that is available for continously maintaining production.

Hydraulic fractionation has been commercially successful in the US for over a decade. Given the experience that has build up over this period techniques have been improved and improved again many times over - so, the commercially viable production threshold is now significantly lower than it first was.

[Jakubclaret]

Well I'm not sure I totally agree but at least it's a plan. I'm fact I bet you the UK doesn't see a fall in prices or a net gain in jobs in the case of a no deal brexit.

Furthermore, I get that there are more reasons to vote leave than simply the economic ones that the debate often gets reduced to. I probably disagree with you on those too but that's OK, just stop trying to suggest we don't need stuff like energy.

Depends how you define need, yes in the modern world because we are so accustomed to it all, but could you live without it, without the mobile phones, lights, computers, microwaves ect, Would you die without it if you didn’t have it, im not talking about somebody on a life support machine I’m talking about reasonably fit healthy people, the monks in the monasteries seem to manage without it.

[Paul Waine]

If I can join the debate about electricity supplies:

1) the amount of elec consumed varies hour by hour - this is true of all countries. In the UK the peak hours are morning thru evening, particularly in winter when street, residential and office lighting (plus a/c and/or heating) is on. Large scale industrial load is much more evenly spread through day/night and w/ends - when manufacturing processes run continuously.

2) When the wind isn't blowing - so, wind turbines are not generating - and the sun isn't shining - so, solar pv isn't generating much - the UK choice is (a) import some power thru the undersea interconnectors to France (2 MW has been in place for many years) and a few more recent ones or (b) demand side response - i.e. pay some consumers to cut their elec demand and (c) turn on the "standby" generators.

I understand UK still has enough generation capacity via actions (b) and (c) without recourse to (a) if (a) wasn't available. There have been times in the past when we couldn't import elec from France (and there were no other interconnectors to Europe at the time) - this was a result of operational issues in France ((low river levels, so nukes shut down etc). All it did was push up the wholesale price in UK. No biggy. It has happened a few times - I bet if you weren't in the sector you wouldn't have noticed. And, the important thing - all the lights and everything else stayed on (except for demand side response where consumers had opted to pay a lower price for all their elec with the possibility to be switched off. When I was involved with a large elec consumer we were supplied on this basis - but we never experienced a "switch off."

[martin_p]

Depends how you define need, yes in the modern world because we are so accustomed to it all, but could you live without it, without the mobile phones, lights, computers, microwaves ect, Would you die without it if you didn’t have it, im not talking about somebody on a life support machine I’m talking about reasonably fit healthy people, the monks in the monasteries seem to manage without it.

I could live without a phone and computer, but I’d suggest it might just put our service sector at an even bigger disadvantage than Brexit is subjecting it to anyway v

[Jakubclaret]

I could live without a phone and computer, but I’d suggest it might just put our service sector at an even bigger disadvantage than Brexit is subjecting it to anyway v

Yes of course it’s essential in the modern day world, but if you was a reasonably fit adult would it detrimental to your immediate life without electricity it would be disadvantageous but would it cost you your life? I guess it could potentially without a phone if you was in a serious emergency. Regarding service sector,I should imagine it will balance itself out with other job creation.

[martin_p]

Will you people listen to yourselves! You’re seriously discussing this issue, the chance of electricity shortages, or at best price hikes, and for what. If even one of you could come up with some real tangible benefits of Brexit then the conversation might seem less ridiculous. But despite repeated attempts from various people to illicit a response there still seems to be nothing.

Anyway, I’m off to cut my left leg off, it’s not essential to life and I can use a crutch or a wheelchair. It’ll cut my sock and shoe budget by 50%!

[Spiral]

Must admit, seeing brexiteers engaging with the idea of energy shortages as opposed to shouting "PROJECT FEAR" is a pleasant surprise. Not exactly the sunlit uplands we were promised, and I wonder how long the policy will hold support with a majority when the realities become noticeable on a day-to-day basis (I suspect that drop in support will be more full of wrath than polite disapproval), but it's nice to see brexiteers accepting that there could/will be completely avoidable and self inflicted damage done to the country.

[Spiral]

Will you people listen to yourselves!

This cannot be said enough times!

It isn't even an inevitability of brexit, just a possibility in the event of no deal, but purity is so important to a vocal fringe element that we're actually at this point.

[Paul Waine]

We've heard that argument so many times and essentially it comes down to the same answer.
Whatever hit the EU takes is divided by 27, whereas the UK takes the full hit. Meanwhile the 27 will continue to operate as before whilst we stockpile food and medicines, secure our borders, seek out new deals, security arrangements, and so many other things.
Now imagine it were one of the other 27 leaving with potentially "no deal". As one of the remaining 27 how much do you think we would be panicking or concerned? Not much, in fact our tabloid press would most likely be having a laugh.

Hi nil_d, do you think that the impact for the EU will be related to the size of each member states exports to UK, rather than split equally between the 27? It would be tough for the smaller member states if they were each taking a 1/27th hit.

Anyway, I hope no one has to find out, either way.

[scrambledclaret]

Yes of course it’s essential in the modern day world, but if you was a reasonably fit adult would it detrimental to your immediate life without electricity it would be disadvantageous but would it cost you your life? I guess it could potentially without a phone if you was in a serious emergency. Regarding service sector,I should imagine it will balance itself out with other job creation.

Yes, I think it would cost lives. On the plus side, unemployment would go down!

[Lancasterclaret]

These threads are ace when you just turn up occassionally and read through what people actually put.

Claretandy - everything that Carney says is "Project Fear" until he says something good about free trade and suddenly, its all worth listening to.

Colburn - no evidence of any of the ******** you are talking. Mate, you'd look daft on here if it wasn't for the hilarious post by Jakub!

Jakub - I'm starting to think (like with Ringo) that you are a brilliant parody account. No one could come out with what you have done without a little giggle

**** funny it has to be said.

And of course, a national tragedy that people actually post stuff like this and think its alright.

[Jakubclaret]

Yes, I think it would cost lives. On the plus side, unemployment would go down!

It has the potential to, dialysis machines ect, like I said the monks seem to get by, agree to disagree, I wouldn't like to find out nor be without it, daft subject really its not happening, you can blame aggi for bringing it up.

[Spiral]

I don't know about that. You posted "We don't need (electricity), we could live without it". Energy is a national security concern. It's not just candles in your living room and paper records.

[RingoMcCartney]

Oh Bless Ringo my little friend you’ve been wriggling so much you don’t whether your coming or going:-). I’ve been asking you to find a definition of Evidence since Tuesday and you haven’t been able to find that helps:-(

I refer you back to page 13 #642 and page 14 #660. I know it’s hard for you and to be fair you are valiantly fighting your corner but it’s a bit futile. I even tried to break it down into little bite size pieces to try to help you understand page 15 #750 but to no avail.

Do you really think there is no evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow? Don’t rush to answer, give it a bit of thought and then explain why there is no evidence to support that belief.

I’m not going to Tick Tock you because I don’t want you to feel under pressure, ok? It’s not a competition, in your own time.

Your fixation with the definition of "evidence" , and who provides it is clearly clouding your ability to absorb information.

For time immemorial the sun HAS risen in the morning. It has done for millenia. These PAST events allow us to PREDICT it will do the same tomorrow. These past events are not in themselves evidence that it will rise tomorrow but they allow us to BELIEVE, (in reality we KNOW, barring planetary catastrophe) that it will. But only when it's happened will you be able to provide evidence that it actually did.

No country, with the 5/6th largest GDP in the world has ever left the EU.

There is no past event to provide evidence on which base the belief that leaving the EU will have a negative impact on the uk.

You believing, what could turn out to be short term or reversible, business decisions, as "evidence" that brexit will have a negative impact on the uk could be proven wrong. And what you're claiming as evidence, could turn out to be exactly what im saying it is - an opinion/belief. 

You cannot provide EVIDENCE from an event, until it has actually happened. 

Now these are your words - "Do you really think there is no evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow? Don’t rush to answer, give it a bit of thought and then explain why there is no evidence to support that BELIEF.

Look very closely at your words. The last word in that sentence is belief.

Belief.

Not "evidence", but belief. In other words you have an opinion.

Just like me.

[RingoMcCartney]

If it helps you - my comments are evidence yours are opinion.

Really?

[RingoMcCartney]

It’s good old black and white Wrongo, only understanding the word evidence in a single context, and also asking someone to prove something they’ve never claimed

They NEVER claimed?

The above quote is Burnley Ace saying his posts were EVIDENCE.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nor am I.

So you and I are both left with what I said originally

Our own opinion.

That we're both entitled to hold.

This is me saying we both have opinions

[RingoMcCartney]

For the 7TH time!

I HAVE NO EVIDENCE! Just an opinion that in time they may prove to be short term.

Where's your EVIDENCE they won't. It's simply your opinion.

You're a weather girl thinking your a climatologist.

This is me saying I have no evidence. Just an opinion.

[RingoMcCartney]

FOR THE 6TH TIME.

I HAVE NO EVIDENCE.

I ONLY HAVE AN OPINION.

YOU HAVE NO, ZERO, NADA OR ZILCH EVIDENCE

YOU ONLY HAVE AN OPINION.)

This is me saying I only have an opinion. No evidence

[RingoMcCartney]

The only fact is this.

No country has left the EU before.

A country with the 5th/6th biggest GDP in the world.

WE HAVE NOT LEFT YET.

There is no "evidence"

Just opinions saying brexit will be either negative, positive or neutral.

This is me marty saying nobody has evidence. Just opinions.

[RingoMcCartney]

But Wrongo you’ve claimed that you have evidence that Brexit will be wonderful.

As can be seen by the above quotes.

I said nothing of the sort Marty.

[RingoMcCartney]

All I said was that economic forecasts are not as accurate as the model for predicting the sun will come up. Both are evidence based.

Spot the difference between what I’m saying and what you seem to think I’m saying

- You can provide evidence for a future event
- You can provide evidence from a future event

With reference as to whether brexit will have a negative impact on the uk or not, is down to claiming that what you're claiming as "evidence" are actually just FORECASTS, ECONOMIC MODELS, that are NOT ACCURATE.

Certainly not "evidence"

[RingoMcCartney]

I wouldn’t start wa-nking yourself off in glee quite yet.

What a crass and inappropriate comment to make.

[RingoMcCartney]

As much as it irks me to say so Wrongo is kind of right in what he says

It really did didn't it.