General Election 2017 Mega Thread

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bit O/T, but its a bit silly in the digital age not to have some sort of internet voting.

Would help those who can't get it together enough (for whatever reason) to make it to a poll station.

One user id, one password and one vote. How hard could that be?

It's the same problem as the postal voting - no secret ballot. It's also even less secure than postal voting because there isn't even a signature involved.

IMO postal voting ought to be for necessary cases only and properly supervised. At the very least, postal votes should be applied for in person, with reasons why it's needed, and with an official available to visit the disabled and housebound.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:06 pm

claretandy wrote:Good article on why "soft brexit" is the worst of both worlds

http://brexitcentral.com/no-soft-brexit ... le-option/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It makes some reasonable points (although these are things I have been saying for a long time as to why the Brexit leave vote was a bad idea, we have a very good chance of abiding by the rules whilst having no influence over the rules).

There is an issue that he seems to be naming soft Brexit as a customs union, I think many would view a free-trade agreement as Soft Brexit as well.

He also doesn't seem to address the point that we'd have even less influence with hard Brexit and it would be even easier for the EU to change the rules to alienate us.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:08 pm

No secret ballot?

Its as secret as it gets, and a hell of a lot safer and secure than postal voting.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bit O/T, but its a bit silly in the digital age not to have some sort of internet voting.

Would help those who can't get it together enough (for whatever reason) to make it to a poll station.

One user id, one password and one vote. How hard could that be?

Well given the current Government wants to have a "backdoor" into encryption it sounds like a bad idea at the moment.

Seriously though, I was talking to people who were at counts and it is evident at the moment that it is very difficult to "hack" our voting system. Our cyber-security doesn't seem so robust at the moment, I'd prefer us to hold off before implementing digital voting.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No secret ballot?

Its as secret as it gets, and a hell of a lot safer and secure than postal voting.

It's not secret in the "secret ballot" sense. What's to stop (in Turtle's example above) the boss looking over his employees' shoulders to see who they're voting for? The whole point of the secret ballot when it was brought in, in the 1700's or 1800's or whenever, isn't that you have the chance to keep it secret; it's that you must keep it secret. It was specifically designed to stop employers and landlords forcing their employees and tenants to vote the way they're told to. When you vote at a ballot box, it doesn't matter if your boss is there in person; if you show him your vote, that vote is invalid and you can't put it in the box. Therefore the boss has no way of knowing who you voted for, so he can't force you to vote against your will.

There is no equivalent protection for postal or internet voting.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:17 pm

Agree that the current arguments over encryption possibly make it a non-starter.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:18 pm

Bill Cash is on the radio now talking about this.

For some bizarre reason, he seems very keen on talking about a vote last year rather than one from last week.

Talked for six minutes and basically said the same thing time and time again. I don't think he's very happy with the British voters and media for ******* on his personal Brexit parade.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:11 pm

dsr wrote: That specific incident is a non-story because the company has know way of knowing who the staff are voting for (and the staff know it too); but what if a company takes the next step and insists its staff all have postal votes?

)

How is it a non-story. If you have a Labour sticker in your car, a Labour banner in you garden, go out canvasing for the Labour Party, etc. etc. then your employer might reasonably assume you are going to vote Labour. At its most superficial level, you might even be judged on what newspaper you take to work, or someone might report you for expressing the "wrong" views in the canteen.
You're dead right about postal votes though.
No one has mentioned proxy votes. What do people think of proxy votes? I voted 3 times last week. (Once for the wrong party, who happened to win in my constituency!)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:32 pm

Just to remember what was said about the single market before the referendum. By leave campaigners.

https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/8 ... 9631352836" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just to remember what was said about the single market before the referendum. By leave campaigners.

https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/8 ... 9631352836" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even remainers are saying we have to leave the single market, only SNP and lib dems saying we should stay. There are some like Chuka Ummuna who really do want to have their cake and eat it, he thinks we can stay in a "reformed" single market with controls of freedom of movement. Not going to happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 14676.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:48 pm

Missing the point old fruit, there isn't a mandate for leaving the single market, because leave never said we'd have to leave it.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:03 pm

The problem is that all the good things are enshrined in being a member of the EU, or come with great cost, should you want your cake but no Johnny Foreigners darkening our shore - unless just on a holiday to see the sites and the Queen! Perhaps some are now realising the actual losses to the country (17% devaluation, on top of Tory Austerity). The NHS will shortly have to recruit from anywhere, as the EU supply has dried up and the Tories have no real training programme. Leaving the EU is a monumental shambles and will take us back decades, in economic and social cohesion. Just so we can cajole our wasters into trying to work and turn away expertise trained at others expense, because they have an accent. I know who I would rather have!

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Missing the point old fruit, there isn't a mandate for leaving the single market, because leave never said we'd have to leave it.

Really ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI5A1Gd5D0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:14 pm

Right, so you've got leave MPs saying we should leave the single market. Ace. Totally backs up your point.

Cameron comments totally cropped as well.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Right, so you've got leave MPs saying we should leave the single market. Ace. Totally backs up your point.

Cameron comments totally cropped as well.

Plus the £9M government propaganda leaflet.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:43 pm

IanMcL wrote:The problem is that all the good things are enshrined in being a member of the EU, or come with great cost, should you want your cake but no Johnny Foreigners darkening our shore - unless just on a holiday to see the sites and the Queen! Perhaps some are now realising the actual losses to the country (17% devaluation, on top of Tory Austerity). The NHS will shortly have to recruit from anywhere, as the EU supply has dried up and the Tories have no real training programme. Leaving the EU is a monumental shambles and will take us back decades, in economic and social cohesion. Just so we can cajole our wasters into trying to work and turn away expertise trained at others expense, because they have an accent. I know who I would rather have!

So, another 1 million UK citizens every 3 years isn't a ticking time bomb?

Yes, the economy will take quite a hit, we will recover.

Much more difficult to recover from the social breakdown which will inevitably occur
when the population far exceeds the infrastructure designed to support it (housing, transport, education, healthcare etc).

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:45 pm

We'd have the infrastructure to support it if the Tories actually invested in the country over the last 7 years rather than giving tax breaks to all

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:34 pm

So, UpTheBeehole, do you think the UK should have no control whatsoever over it's own population/borders and just let anyone from around the world live/work here?

What would your immigration policy be?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Never understood exactly why a govt should get involved in telling private enterprise who it should employ and from where. What business is it of the govt is a firm wants to hire a Spanish IT engineer, a Polish electrician or Romanian catering staff? The govt should exist, in this case, to ensure that minimum working standards are met and the infrastructure exists to support the country.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Is that what I said?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:56 pm

Spiral wrote:Never understood exactly why a govt should get involved in telling private enterprise who it should employ and from where. What business is it of the govt is a firm wants to hire a Spanish IT engineer, a Polish electrician or Romanian catering staff? The govt should exist, in this case, to ensure that minimum working standards are met and the infrastructure exists to support the country.

Good post, but you forgot to mention as well, that no govt should be making it more difficult for our workers, (and in particular the next generation of young people) to take up posts throughout the EU, and for our businesses to expand into the EU, without restriction.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:05 pm

The reality is that this is still a great country (just about) to live/work in and, given the chance, half the bloody world would like to live here!

We must appreciate just how lucky we are and we should be prepared to protect our way of life when it is being threatened by overpopulation.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:42 pm

Not much sign of the Tories going soft on brexit, powerful brexiteer steve Baker has been appointed a brexit minister.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/s ... 3f2c6e21c4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:03 pm

claretandy wrote:Not much sign of the Tories going soft on brexit, powerful brexiteer steve Baker has been appointed a brexit minister.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/s ... 3f2c6e21c4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

He is only replacing David Jones (that must be where he went) who was also a powerful Brexiteer.

There doesn't seem to be any explanation why some of the others have gone though, cutting the team in half a few days before negotiations start. I'm still not filled with confidence that we can out-negotiate anyone (I guess the comedic announcements re: the DUP deal foreshadowed that)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06 ... g_share_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm still of the view that this is too important a decision to be left to whichever party happens to be in power at the time and should be a cross-party decision and others seem to agree. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:04 pm

Mala591 wrote:...we should be prepared to protect our way of life when it is being threatened by overpopulation.

'Overpopulation' is such a nebulous term. By every empirical measure problems caused by immigration (excluding 'cultural' and being indignant at hearing the occasional foreign accent when out on your weekly shop) are a consequence of failure of govt. The Greater Tokyo area has a population of over 37 million in an area similar to the size of Yorkshire, but it has sufficient public services that it doesn't collapse. Crowded, yes. Busy, of course. An existential threat to the way of life of the Japanese people? Don't be daft.

edit-correction on area of greater Tokyo.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:20 pm

Spiral wrote:'Overpopulation' is such a nebulous term. By every empirical measure problems caused by immigration (excluding 'cultural' and being indignant at hearing the occasional foreign accent when out on your weekly shop) are a consequence of failure of govt. The Greater Tokyo area has a population of over 37 million in an area similar to the size of Yorkshire, but it has sufficient public services that it doesn't collapse. Crowded, yes. Busy, of course. An existential threat to the way of life of the Japanese people? Don't be daft.

edit-correction on area of greater Tokyo.

Wow, you must be right in the thick of it, occasional foreign voice, in Nelson town centre If you come upon another English person it's like running through Central Park in New York with your Burnley shirt on and another Claret goes running past.
I'm happy with all those that are here to live in peace and integrate but not the others.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:22 pm

Yes, you're right, Bleeding. There's rather a lot of people living in Nelson from Pakistan, Europe.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:28 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Wow, you must be right in the thick of it, occasional foreign voice, in Nelson town centre If you come upon another English person it's like running through Central Park in New York with your Burnley shirt on and another Claret goes running past.
I'm happy with all those that are here to live in peace and integrate but not the others.

So are you suggesting that the demographics of Nelson are representative of the UK as a whole, because if you are then the issue of migration from the EU is really not much of an issue. {There are very few}
The truth is that the demographics of Nelson are not even representative of the Borough of Pendle, or even Lancashire, let alone the whole of the UK.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:31 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bit O/T, but its a bit silly in the digital age not to have some sort of internet voting.

Would help those who can't get it together enough (for whatever reason) to make it to a poll station.

One user id, one password and one vote. How hard could that be?

Good god no.

We shouldn't even move to electronic voting. https://youtu.be/w3_0x6oaDmI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:31 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So are you suggesting that the demographics of Nelson are representative of the UK as a whole, because if you are then the issue of migration from the EU is really not much of an issue. {There are very few}
The truth is that the demographics of Nelson are not even representative of the Borough of Pendle, or even Lancashire, let alone the whole of the UK.

Demographics of Lidl

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:40 pm

The citizens/electorate of any country should decide the immigration policy. Options might be:

Zero net immigration over the next 5 years with a modest investment in public services

OR

500,000 allowed in each year with massive investment in roads/schools/housing etc

WE (the citizens) must be in control of our country's destiny.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:58 pm

How about just doing the sensible thing and letting the market determine how many foreigners the country needs. Scrap the pointless arbitrary targets and make sure nobody undercuts low-wage British workers by properly enforcing NMW and statutory workers rights, working conditions etc.

I'm a citizen just like you, you know, and I think your ideas are terribly ham-fisted.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:45 pm

This is from the Chief Political Correspondent for the Financial Times' twitter account.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:44 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is from the Chief Political Correspondent for the Financial Times' twitter account.

Yep, uncosted, free stuff wins everytime.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:48 am

But Labour didn't win.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:37 am

claretandy wrote:Yep, uncosted, free stuff wins everytime.

True, the party with the uncosted manifesto did win.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:41 am

I'm really getting worried for claretandy here.

Its almost like he lives in a right wing bubble and doesn't actually read any of that "biased liberal trash" that is actually, well, the news.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:47 am

aggi wrote:True, the party with the uncosted manifesto did win.

You better tell the corbynasties on twatter then, they're under the impression that they won.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:03 am

claretandy wrote:You better tell the corbynasties on twatter then, they're under the impression that they won.

They didn't win the election but they acheived their objective, and that can certainly feel like a win. It's certainly a success.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:19 pm

I'm not on twitter so that doesn't really concern me too much.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:36 pm

Corbynasties

He'll be calling them Corbynazis next

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:02 pm

May fails again! Grenfell House. Visits privately and does not meet residents....security is excuse.

Strong - no way.
Stable - unstable
Leadership - clueless

The woman must hear voices belonging to demons, in her ears all day. Zero empathy shown.

Our out out!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:10 pm

Falcon wrote:Corbynasties

He'll be calling them Corbynazis next

It's funny how many complaints there are about the proliferation of the word "Nazi" as an insult, yet these complaints come from the political wing that for decades have normalised the word 'Feminazi'.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:33 pm

Does anybody actually know what the key points of the Tory Manifesto were?

The only thing I recall was the Dementia Tax which was very quickly reversed or denied.
Was the increase in National Insurance for the self-employed going to be in the manifesto?
But came out early and was subsequently dropped.
More grammar schools.
Vague promises that Brexit is an opportunity for us to be able to trade with the Rest of the World.
A promise to be honest with the general public and therefore more austerity?

How else are they going to reduce the deficit to zero million by whatever date
they have pushed it back to? (was it 2025?)
Does anyone, even Tory supporters, believe they will be able to achieve that?

Whatever else might have been in their manifesto they failed to communicate it.

Not surprised their manifesto was uncosted.
One doesn't need to cost if basically all you are likely to be doing is forcing through more austerity and cuts,
in particular to our public services, NHS, our schools and education system.

What a bl..dy mess we're in!

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:44 pm

IanMcL wrote:May fails again! Grenfell House. Visits privately and does not meet residents....security is excuse.

They'd probably rather hug Adele, anyway. I can't see that much point of the PM going to the site anyway - what's she going to learn that she couldn't see on the TV coverage and by talking to the people who know what they're about? And if she can learn anything, or needs to visit to fully appreciate the magnitude of the tragedy, then that will work just as well off camera as on it.

It's the modern need (a la Princess Di) to be seen to care more than the next person. Such as when Tony Blair told the Queen how she should appear to mourn.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:48 pm

May wouldn't be seen dead meeting the families and their relatives.

Corbyn scores again on this one for me.

At least he was seen meeting and talking to ordinary folk and. at one point,
if I'm not mistaken, giving one of them a hug.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:54 pm

'I can't see that much point of the PM going to the site anyway'

She is the, alleged, elected leader of the people - it is her duty to be seen to be there and to engage with the people!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:58 pm

IanMcL wrote:'I can't see that much point of the PM going to the site anyway'

She is the, alleged, elected leader of the people - it is her duty to be seen to be there and to engage with the people!

She wasn't elected to be PM (technically no one is) because her party didn't acheive a majority of seats.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:12 am

She went into the election as PM and currently continues to occupy the post. It is her duty to attend on our behalf and in particular, to thank the emergency services, volunteers and above all meet, comfort and reassure some residents.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:20 pm

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I've seen people on Facebook lambasting May for not going to meet the Grenfell residents, but other people slagging off Corbyn for his 'publicity stunt' of visiting the Grenfell residents. You can't win in politics it seems.