Tony Bliar lecturing the British people

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:13 pm

I think Tony Blair has every right to voice his opinion.
In today's world we all can voice our opinions. well those of us who live in
the more advanced countries where access to the internet, twitter and like
are common place.

We are leaving Europe and it is too late for that to stop.
Tony Blair should put his efforts in trying to ensure that whatever deal
we get is the best possible as should everyone.

I think the truth of the matter is no one really knows what the consequences
are likely to be although I don't think it would be misguided to suggest we are going to have
difficult times over the coming few years. I suspect more difficult than many folk have predicted
or would like.

It seems clear that the fall of the pound will result in increased import costs
for a whole variety of goodies we buy - be it essentials or otherwise.
These increases are slowly but surely seeping though to consumers and will more than likely
increase further during the coming year.
Inflation as a consequence is also likely to rise and lets hope it doesn't rise
to 3-4% as that is going to impact quite severely on millions of UK citizens.
Especially those with mortgages but we will all suffer increased food and energy prices.
Not sure how employment will fair over the next few years.
Certain sectors may be hit - manufacturing and banking come to mind.
Let's hope not.

I personally think the May is extremely naive to think we are going to negotiate a deal that
doesn't have some major repercussions and costs.
And it seems obvious that those who will bear the largest brunt of those repercussions
and costs will be the most disadvantaged and poor of the country although the middle classes will also
take a serious hit.

That's if we get a deal at all.
Europe could be on its knees within a year or so and negotiations could, as a consequence flounder
or not be worth the paper they are written on.

I do personally believe that leaving Europe will not solve the problems that exist in the UK.
In essence we were slowly sinking and in decline long before we joined Europe and it became an issue.

There's very few signs that we are capable or willing to do something about that.

Some high ranking civil servant (whose name eludes me now) said a few years ago.
Something along the lines of 'It's about managing decline without people taking to the streets and
serious civil disruption'.

Let's hope that leaving Europe will provide us with a new dawn and
we can somehow start getting out of the mess we are in.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:15 pm

Bacchus wrote:The idea that problems in Greece are entirely down to the Euro and nothing to do with the fact that half of the country wants to pay no tax and retire at 50 is incredibly one-eyed.

Hi Bacchus, so if the people in Greece paid their taxes they wouldn't need austerity? Why did they seem to avoid these issues before Greece joined the euro?

BTW: I'm not a big fan of not paying the taxes that are due. I've a feeling that most of the "lower earning" people in Greece were probably not the one's who were escaping their tax obligations. I've also a feeling that they are the ones who are bearing the hardships from the "euro compliance" austerity.

Wasn't it the public sector where retirement at 50 was the norm?

Why did the EU want Greece in the euro system - if we all knew that taxes went uncollected and it was the norm to retire at 50?

Danieljwaterhouse · Post by **Danieljwaterhouse** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:15 pm

He's yesterday's man, and for all his rhetoric is just performing for his European masters. Also I'd imagine he's upping his already large speech fee.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:23 pm

As i understand it, what Blair has done is to argue that we should have a second referendum because there is a chance that leaving the EU will have consequences some of those who voted for Brexit might not have anticipated. There are many who reckon this is patronising to the British people

It may be. But Ive skimmed the 3 pairs of this thread, and I can't see anyone deal with this point:

If it is patronising, and so Blair is wrong, then the result will be the same. In fact, the failure of what was dubbed "project fear" by some may even embolden more to vote out.

And so, why are so many Brexit supporters so opposed to a referendum that, if the British people knew what they were voting for, they would surely win?

It cant be because they fear, at some level, quite a few people may have their doubts when the real final deal is land on the table, and so they have some sort of fear of the result of any further referendum might be? They can't be scared of democracy, can they?

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:27 pm

I am more fed up about the arguing than I am fed up about Blair or the EU. Politics brings the worst out of people.

This forum should be like a pub. No regious shite, no political shite

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:28 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Bacchus, so if the people in Greece paid their taxes they wouldn't need austerity? Why did they seem to avoid these issues before Greece joined the euro?

I don't for one second claim to be an expert on Greek politics or economics, but I'd hazard a guess that the global economic meltdown that occurred a few years ago played its part. You can probably throw an ageing population and the increased ability and tendency of younger Greeks to travel and work in other countries. My basic point was that problems in Greece are down to a lot more than the Euro / EU in general.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:32 pm

time he shut up and f***ed off to a tax haven or something similar

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:35 pm

Inchy wrote:This forum should be like a pub. No regious shite, no political shite

Maybe the threads discussing politics could be clearly labelled with a subject title or something to help people who aren't interested avoid them.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:35 pm

boatshed bill wrote:time he shut up and f***ed off to a tax haven or something similar

Preferably one at the bottom of the Atlantic.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:38 pm

Claretspice, I think we all know that a referendum is a fairly blunt instrument, like a general election, but it is democratic.

Being blunt, if we held one a week for a year, Remain would win some, Leave would win some. Simply based on the ebb and flow of the news cycle.

Blair knows that (as do Sturgeon and Salmond in the Scottish context). He is gambling that he can swing it, get a 2nd referendum on the deal, ride into Brussels as a hero, and take the presidency that has long been his career ambition.

So I think that is why Brexiteers are up in arms, they know things can be twisted by Blair, they know he is good at it as a top lawyer and 3 time election winner, and that it could work. I actually think that if the Government lobbied for Leave (unlike any of the main parties last time), and had the civil service behind them, Leave would get 60% in a second referendum. But you never know.

geopancake · Post by **geopancake** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:45 pm

Tonys middle names are interesting?????

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:47 pm

We are jumping off a sinking (EU) ship whilst there are still plenty of lifeboats. Thanks goodness for that.

If it comes to its senses and reverts to a common market, with sensible cooperation on defence and security, then I would be more than happy to rejoin one day. However, the long planned German takeover has not worked. The final straw was Merkel thinking she could speak for the whole of the EU on migration. The uk view of safe havens near Syria is now widely seen as the right approach. Many lives would have been saved if people had only listened to us. Now the EU will most likely split within a few years and it is her fault.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:50 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Claretspice, I think we all know that a referendum is a fairly blunt instrument, like a general election, but it is democratic.

Being blunt, if we held one a week for a year, Remain would win some, Leave would win some. Simply based on the ebb and flow of the news cycle.

Blair knows that (as do Sturgeon and Salmond in the Scottish context). He is gambling that he can swing it, get a 2nd referendum on the deal, ride into Brussels as a hero, and take the presidency that has long been his career ambition.

So I think that is why Brexiteers are up in arms, they know things can be twisted by Blair, they know he is good at it as a top lawyer and 3 time election winner, and that it could work. I actually think that if the Government lobbied for Leave (unlike any of the main parties last time), and had the civil service behind them, Leave would get 60% in a second referendum. But you never know.

I'm not interested in the motivations of Blair (who I don't trust or like). Im interested in why the idea of a second referendum is being talked of as anti democratic. It is as perverse a logic as is possible.

You may be right. It may be so close that the ebb and flow of the electorate might change the result. Which is a pretty good argument for seeking a settlement that balances all views in the referendum. Clearly there's a mandate for change. But there's no clear mandate to rip up the very basis of our prosperity as a nation.

There's an inferiority complex amongst many of the hardcore Brexiteers which is profoundly anti democratic, and the white noise about "the will of the people" is a poor disguise for an agenda based on anything but.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:50 pm

Bacchus wrote:I don't for one second claim to be an expert on Greek politics or economics, but I'd hazard a guess that the global economic meltdown that occurred a few years ago played its part. You can probably throw an ageing population and the increased ability and tendency of younger Greeks to travel and work in other countries. My basic point was that problems in Greece are down to a lot more than the Euro / EU in general.

Hi Bacchus, we both agree that the euro is not sole cause of Greece's problems. However, if Greece had stayed out of the euro (their economy didn't meet the specified entry requirements) and had still got the drachma then the consequences would have been more easily managed. Yes, the drachma would have depreciated significantly. Yes, interest rates for the drachma would have been higher - and Greece would not have borrowed so much and would not have been lent so much, i.e. borrowers would have been dissuaded because of the high interest costs and lenders would have limited lending because Greece was not as good a risk as a German backed euro.

Similar situations apply in Spain and Italy - and Ireland. Ireland has been impressive in how they have shrugged off the years "of excess" and knuckled down to work hard again.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:52 pm

I wish people would stop going on about a "German takeover".

No one is a prouder Brit than me, but you can take it a bit too far.

I'm actually glad we are only going as far back as 1974, as some of you clearly have never left 1944.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:01 pm

Post 163. (and 154)

Your post runs along the lines of : Burnley beat Liverpool at home. Liverpool (we) didn't like this result, and seeing as we got beat, it therefore follows that Burnley should play us again tomorrow because they beat us yesterday, so what are they afraid of?

Haha. It's called democracy.

Still, if we don't get the right result, let's keep replaying till we do.

"Terrifying, absolutely terrifying, times for this country.". - I haven't slept a wink since June 24th.

taio · Post by **taio** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:06 pm

claretspice wrote:As i understand it, what Blair has done is to argue that we should have a second referendum because there is a chance that leaving the EU will have consequences some of those who voted for Brexit might not have anticipated. There are many who reckon this is patronising to the British people

It may be. But Ive skimmed the 3 pairs of this thread, and I can't see anyone deal with this point:

If it is patronising, and so Blair is wrong, then the result will be the same. In fact, the failure of what was dubbed "project fear" by some may even embolden more to vote out.

And so, why are so many Brexit supporters so opposed to a referendum that, if the British people knew what they were voting for, they would surely win?

It cant be because they fear, at some level, quite a few people may have their doubts when the real final deal is land on the table, and so they have some sort of fear of the result of any further referendum might be? They can't be scared of democracy, can they?

At which point would those who want another referendum want that referendum to take place? Now when the precise details aren't clear, or just after Article 50 is triggered when the precise details aren't clear, or say 12 months post Article 50 trigger when the precise details aren't clear, or at the eleventh hour when the details are clear but there can be no turning back?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:13 pm

claretspice wrote:As i understand it, what Blair has done is to argue that we should have a second referendum because there is a chance that leaving the EU will have consequences some of those who voted for Brexit might not have anticipated. There are many who reckon this is patronising to the British people

It may be. But Ive skimmed the 3 pairs of this thread, and I can't see anyone deal with this point:

If it is patronising, and so Blair is wrong, then the result will be the same. In fact, the failure of what was dubbed "project fear" by some may even embolden more to vote out.

And so, why are so many Brexit supporters so opposed to a referendum that, if the British people knew what they were voting for, they would surely win?

It cant be because they fear, at some level, quite a few people may have their doubts when the real final deal is land on the table, and so they have some sort of fear of the result of any further referendum might be? They can't be scared of democracy, can they?

Hi claretspice,

Somewhere on this thread I asked the question what do people think will happen if there is a second ref. Do people think the EU will re-negotiate? Do people think the EU will welcome us back on a "status quo" basis - whatever the "status quo" is?

Perhaps parliament wasn't thinking clearly when they approved the referendum question? Or perhaps they knew it could only be a simple "stay in" or "leave" question? Perhaps it was the different campaigns (on both sides) which developed afterwards that have resulted in this uncertainty about "what now?"

A second referendum is a futile exercise - whether we taken the "don't patronise us" view or are cool with however the different voting groups are perceived. Better to deal with "what next" in future general elections.

But, also we need to learn from the past few years. We need to be more demanding of our politicians. We need to scrutinise their activities more and require (force) more openness about their actions. We need to insist on greater quality in our politicians - and we need to demand that politics is not a "career choice" but that politicians have "real jobs" away from politics before we elect them as MPs. A large part of the mess we are in is a result of the career politicians: go to uni, get involved in politics at uni, join a political party, become a political analysts/bag carrier for a politician etc. etc. and eventually become an MP and be ambitious to join the government. (Membership of EU also added Brussels and MEPs to this political career path....).

No, I'm not scared of democracy. We all need to take responsibility for building and improving the quality of our democracy. We obviously haven't been doing this: we got the politicians we deserve.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:20 am

Bacchus wrote:That you don't understand why condensing an issue so complex and with so many potential outcomes into a simple yes / no question speaks volumes. If somebody asks you whether you want to leave your house do you just answer yes or no or do you want to know where to? Yes could mean a fortnight in Barbados or it could mean an afternoon at Ewood licking Coyle's underwear clean. No chance to change your mind though, yes means yes.

You, of course, are talking bollocxs. Are you a politician? If not, shut your hole because they now have to do what they are paid to do. When the ballot closed our participation stopped or can't you understand that? ITS NOW UP TO THE POLITICIANS and nothing you say will change that. Btw, I've had many a holiday in Barbados so I will leave you to lick Coyles underpants because you are obviously sh!t at picking the winning side.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:25 am

Bacchus wrote:The idea that problems in Greece are entirely down to the Euro and nothing to do with the fact that half of the country wants to pay no tax and retire at 50 is incredibly one-eyed.

The fact they all thought it was acceptable to do so is largely down to the masses of money they were being given by the EU and to think it isn't is incredibly one eyed.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:29 am

geopancake wrote:Tonys middle names are interesting?????

Anthony Charles Lynton Blair...

The O/P may be referring to an " alleged " court case at Bow Street Magistrates Court, in 1983, where someone called Charles Lynton was convicted of a Cottaging offence and fined £50. If this is true, all records appear to have been expunged...

Saxoman · Post by **Saxoman** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:34 am

conyoviejo wrote:How does this odious scumbag get so much media time ? It's Time somebody put a fatwa on him..

Have to settle for a fatwife.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:38 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:1) What a load of ****.

2) How nice of you. You know, it's people like you who give leave voters a bad name, with your indifference to potential hardship on a massive scale and outright support for the collapse of a peaceful, political union.

Oh you poor lamb. If there is outright support for the EU, why would there be nations, like us, wanting to exit? If there is so much support surely it can't collapse, can it? Personally I can't wait for us to start making our own way in the world rather than relying on nations, Germany and France for example, that want to see us us as their bitch at long last. If you can't see the logical end game of this 'social experiment' then you deserve all that's coming to you, but you should be thankful that people like me are more responsible about your future than you are. Btw, the fact that you think I'm giving leave supporters a bad name makes me so happy because it shows you still haven't come to terms with getting you a55 (democratically) kicked.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:17 am

BennyD wrote:Oh you poor lamb. If there is outright support for the EU, why would there be nations, like us, wanting to exit? If there is so much support surely it can't collapse, can it? Personally I can't wait for us to start making our own way in the world rather than relying on nations, Germany and France for example, that want to see us us as their bitch at long last. If you can't see the logical end game of this 'social experiment' then you deserve all that's coming to you, but you should be thankful that people like me are more responsible about your future than you are. Btw, the fact that you think I'm giving leave supporters a bad name makes me so happy because it shows you still haven't come to terms with getting you a55 (democratically) kicked.

What on earth are you talking about?

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:42 am

taio wrote:At which point would those who want another referendum want that referendum to take place? Now when the precise details aren't clear, or just after Article 50 is triggered when the precise details aren't clear, or say 12 months post Article 50 trigger when the precise details aren't clear, or at the eleventh hour when the details are clear but there can be no turning back?

This, there is no going back, the only time there could be a vote is when the final deal is known but if you announce this in advance then there is no chance of getting a good deal from the EU as they know if they give us a bad deal then it would be rejected and hope we would come back with our tails between our legs. May is correct we either accept the deal she negotiates or we leave with no deal, there is no 3rd lets stay in option.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:04 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:What on earth are you talking about?

Its pretty simple really; there is less support for the EU than you think. The logical end game is; Germany, with France as its number 2, running Europe. The brexiteers have saved the remainers from being in the epicentre of the fallout when the EU collapses. The fact that I agreed with the majority makes me happy, especially as it annoys the remoaners. Happy?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:05 am

Morgan wrote:Post 163. (and 154)

Your post runs along the lines of : Burnley beat Liverpool at home. Liverpool (we) didn't like this result, and seeing as we got beat, it therefore follows that Burnley should play us again tomorrow because they beat us yesterday, so what are they afraid of?

Haha. It's called democracy.

Still, if we don't get the right result, let's keep replaying till we do.

"Terrifying, absolutely terrifying, times for this country.". - I haven't slept a wink since June 24th.

Except that the obvious difference is that a football match is a game, a competition in which there is a winner and a loser.

This was a referendum, not about a winning team who took the spoils and losers which get nothing, but a poll to determine a course of action that will define the country for generations. If the referendum genuinely established the will of the people, the result should be the same every time you run the poll.

Of course, there are sports like cricket where they establish the better team over a series, rather than a one off game, but thats by the by. Those that treat the referendum like a football match and the winning team are determined to bank what they got betrays a very simple truth:

They don't give a toss about the will of the people, or necessarily the good of the countryx they care only about protecting their own "win". Which is a bit pathetic really.

Whether there's a second referendum or not, we ought to be seeking a solution that reflects the disparity of opinion in the country. The only thing the referendum seemed to demonstrate conclusively was that this splits the country down the middle.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:15 am

When would you like this second referendum to take place?

Clearly a question being dodged.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:24 am

Tony Blair supporting the EU and a second referendum is the best recruiting ad for Brexit. Juncker should tell him to go away.

Anyway, chatting to a pal last night who said that he thought that Remainers were becoming rather nasty, vile people who have brought hatred into their berating of Brexiters.

Are Brexiters the same towards Remainers ? Or are Brexiters just enjoying taking the proverbial out of Remainers.

A bit like chanting "We've only got 10 men" or "2 nil and you £***ed it up".

Whichever way, will that nastiness fade ?

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:26 am

It was in or out. Just like the Scots voted to stay in the UK, not some hybrid. The key EU national leaders post and pre the vote made it clear that there is/was no halfway house. We all knew that when we voted.

Stop moaning and get behind the PM. She voted remain, but gets what needs to be done and that is why she has a good personal rating.

The best chance to get the best possible access to the EU market is for the EU know that we are definitely leaving. If they think we might change our minds, they will give us nowt. How can anyone with any common sense not see that?

Corky · Post by **Corky** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:27 am

When the campaign was being fought the remainers made it quite clear that the whole UK world would collapse if we voted to leave the EU. Even though no one new for certain what the immediate impact would be, they were quite clear that it would be a disaster.

Yet despite that people voted to leave the EU.

It therefore seems to me a little disingenuous of people like Tony Blair and others to start saying that voters didn't really know what they were getting themselves into. Clearly no one knew what we were getting ourselves into and that includes Brussels.

We voted out democratically. We should now be focusing our attentions on how best to leave the EU whilst it still exists as it certainly looks to be crumbling at the edges.

I would suggest that Tony Blair would be better employed looking at that rather than making what have been perceived as inflammatory remarks suggesting that we didn't know what we were doing.

I use the royal we here as I voted remain, but unlike some I understand the word democracy.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:36 am

I don't know anymore, but I do know that the Hard Brexit that we are going for won't benefit large areas of the country.

Thats us btw

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I don't know anymore, but I do know that the Hard Brexit that we are going for won't benefit large areas of the country.

Thats us btw

But are we going for the Hard Brexit or has the EU said they are going to punish us and give us nowt ?

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:45 am

BennyD wrote:Its pretty simple really; there is less support for the EU than you think. The logical end game is; Germany, with France as its number 2, running Europe. The brexiteers have saved the remainers from being in the epicentre of the fallout when the EU collapses. The fact that I agreed with the majority makes me happy, especially as it annoys the remoaners. Happy?

Your comments about Germany dominating Europe and Britain being it's bitch are bizarre.

You're coming across as more than a bit paranoid.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:46 am

A total leave is an "Hard Brexit" Hatfield.

Whatever can negotiate after that with the EU will be a completely different thing.

I'm 100% sure that it won't involve EU money coming into the North.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:53 am

I'm beginning to thing that a total leave (hard Brexit) is the best Brexit. Then negotiate.

Simply because that is what the EU are forcing us to do. Time will tell.

Who said politics is boring ?

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:54 am

Lancaster you are clearly passionate about this subject, so realistically what do you see as the options from here, and what would be your preferred option?

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:00 am

let it go Lancaster.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:05 am

From here?

Firstly, its really important that we don't needlessly antagonise the EU. The Conservatives are so far ahead in the polls that they don't need to pander to the 10% or so who'd **** the country just to spite the EU, so hopefully business and common sense can work on that so that we go to the negotiations with on good terms with the EU

After that its down the UK-EU team to try to get a deal that is beneficial to all.

What I would say to the likes of Rowls, Summit, CM, BennyD et al is this, do you think a collapsing EU would be good for the world economy?

You'd have to know nothing at all about economics to think anything other than "No, of course not". So I'd want us to negotiate on equal terms with a strong, united and safe with itself EU. If its a time of peace and everyone is doing well, I think this might be the best opportunity for all to get what they want.

But we will see.

I fear though that the Cons will prioritise whats important (and to be fair, something like the city of London is essential for UK prosperity) to them and their support base, which will result in Indy ref 2 in the north and the possible break up of the country that I love. And anyone who thinks that a conservative govt will be good for the north just has to look at their past record.

Bit depressing really, but there you go.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:15 am

I know. It is a bit depressing but it's just not worth arguing about any more.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:23 am

Fair points Lancaster. The Government should prioritise what's important to the country, not just their support base, and in the interests of democracy stopping freedom of movement must be high on the priority list even if that's at the expense of free trade, which means a "hard" Brexit. I'm glad you didn't suggest doing a complete U-turn on the referendum or a second referendum because, unless I'm missing something, what is being suggested on that is just plain daft.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:27 am

I don't want the EU to collaspe and never have. I want the countries themselves to take back control and stop this ever closer union nonsense. I want a common market of friendly countries getting on well and trading together and able to deal the big threat of Putin. The euro is killing southern eurpoe, especially the young people.

I also want borders controlled to keep out terrorists and to have only the immigrants we need. (Our terms not theirs). I certainly don't want drowning with economic migrants. Any people that come in should want to live the way we do and not try to impose their culture etc on us.

That I believe is what most people want.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:32 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I don't know anymore, but I do know that the Hard Brexit that we are going for won't benefit large areas of the country.

Thats us btw

But you don't know Lancs, and neither do I. At a guess there probably will be a downturn, but I doubt it will be deep enough or last long enough to effect the life of the country. Individually, there are bound to be some losers but that can happen at any time due to any political decision, not just leaving the EU.
Keep the faith of the British ability to tighten the belt when necessary and come out the other side smiling. It's not about what life is going to be like for 1 or 2 years post Brexit, but about what this country can achieve in 5, 10, 15 years time.

bob-the-scutter · Post by **bob-the-scutter** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:39 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:So, people are still trying to convince themselves of this, I see...

Most don`t need convincing as they have a functioning brain!

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:52 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:But you don't know Lancs, and neither do I. At a guess there probably will be a downturn, but I doubt it will be deep enough or last long enough to effect the life of the country. Individually, there are bound to be some losers but that can happen at any time due to any political decision, not just leaving the EU.
Keep the faith of the British ability to tighten the belt when necessary and come out the other side smiling. It's not about what life is going to be like for 1 or 2 years post Brexit, but about what this country can achieve in 5, 10, 15 years time.

And what exactly can this country achieve in the next decade or so which it can't now?

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:01 am

Spijed wrote:And what exactly can this country achieve in the next decade or so which it can't now?

Free trade deals with the rest other the world.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:18 am

claretandy wrote:Free trade deals with the rest other the world.

Is that going to make any different though?

Using China as an example:

If China currently buys a product we manufacture, we in all likelihood meet current demand.
Likewise, if we buy something off China we only buy the right amount to satisfy current demand.
That's currently within the EU. Is it really going to change?
I don't recollect any shortage of goods on our shelves because of EU restrictions. Similarly, I don't hear of China not being able to get enough British products because we are not allowed to make enough of them.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:42 am

Take a look at @JohnRentoul's Tweet: https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/ ... 53888?s=09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More evidence of no brexit regrets.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:54 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:A total leave is an "Hard Brexit" Hatfield.

Whatever can negotiate after that with the EU will be a completely different thing.

I'm 100% sure that it won't involve EU money coming into the North.

Hi Lancs,

leaving EU can only ever be "hard brexit" - but only "hard" because that's what we've collectively chosen to call it. "Firm" or "decisive" may be more accurate. Many confuse "hard " with "difficult" "challenging" "poor economic outcome." There's no reason why it is any of these.

Post-exit we can negotiate with EU in the same as we can negotiate with other countries. UK will still be in UN, we will still be in NATO, we will still qualify for WTO trade terms.

Northern Powerhouse - I wish Andy Burnham every success as Mayor of Manchester - will be the source of money into North East Lancs and other areas that need support to develop their strengths. HS2 will also assist boosting the north.

And, Burnley Football Club's footballing success will boost Burnley and show that a well delivered plan, togetherness and productive hard work will be the way that N.E Lancs will grow economically strong again.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:06 pm

Spijed wrote:Is that going to make any different though?

Using China as an example:

If China currently buys a product we manufacture, we in all likelihood meet current demand.
Likewise, if we buy something off China we only buy the right amount to satisfy current demand.
That's currently within the EU. Is it really going to change?
I don't recollect any shortage of goods on our shelves because of EU restrictions. Similarly, I don't hear of China not being able to get enough British products because we are not allowed to make enough of them.

Hi Spijed, we've got to keep driving forward. It's not about where we are today, it's about wanting to be somewhere else in the future and working out how to achieve it.

So, you mention China. It isn't about meeting "current demand" it's about having a plan to meet next year's demand and the year after that. So, we need to be continually looking for things that we can improve, about ourselves, about what we are producing and offering to trade and what we believe other people want today and what they will want in the future.

In terms of trade there is always competition. That will show up in the types and number of products that UK is delivering to China and the types and number of products that China is delivering to UK. Why was China selling a lot of steel into UK and Europe? Why was Tata Steel thinking they might have to shut down? And, if China isn't buying UK goods/services, where are they buying these things? Can we change it - people will always want to buy the best at the agreed price (most competitive).

Substitute China for any other country: Japan, USA, India, Germany etc. etc. etc.