A Second Sweaty Referendum

[Paul Waine]

It's hard to imagine that any Scot reading this thread would consider themselves to be part of a union with England. There are no comments on here that suggest the UK would be losing a valued partner or any attempt to persuade those tempted by independence to stay. Instead there is the usual barrage of abuse and an assumption that we're doing the Scots a massive favour by letting them hang around and if they don't like it they should clear off. The UK should be a Union, but for many English the prevailing attitude is that Scotland Wales and NI should be subservient. It's hardly surprising that there is resentment in return, even moreso given that the Scots are frequently governed by a party that none of them ever vote for and which therefore has absolutely no political 'capital' invested there.

The economics probably don't add up, but if I was Scottish I'd still be tempted to vote for independence. The English control over Scotland is infinitely greater than any perceived European control over the UK ever was.

Hi Bacchus, I think I've already posted yesterday that you can understand some of the "English" i.e. UK resentment at Scotland claiming that they would be better off independent from the UK and always - reference IT's post - blaming "England" *(or the Tories) for anything that isn't working in Scotland.

Yes, we are better off as a union. In 2014 the vote was to maintain the union - albeit that was (only) a vote of the people in Scotland.

I don't get this "subservience" - how many leading UK politicians/government ministers originate in Scotland? and similarly, Wales?

When "diversity" is discussed it is all about equal proportions of representation. How does the population of Scotland compare with that of England?

And, as a "northern man in the south" how do we ensure that "the north of England" gets a fair share?

[Sidney1st]

I don't get this "subservience" - how many leading UK politicians/government ministers originate in Scotland? and similarly, Wales?

Blair and Brown were Scottish, 2 recent PM's.

[ClaretMoffitt]

And you are right in one way CM, I'm different from most liberals because of the pride I have in my country, but that pride isn't the jingoistic ******** spouted by UKIp and the Cons.

Its a quiet pride in knowing that when the **** hit the fan, we stood up for what we believed in and did the right thing.

Now? Jesus, we argue about the rights of EU nationals that have been living here for forty years and think about using them as a negotiating pawn, we moan because we give a tiny percentage of our wealth to third and second world countries to help out, and we vote in droves for people who tell us that immigrants are the root of all our problems.

We've lost a lot recently, and we are going to lose a hell of a lot more of what makes us "British"

We are a tolerant nation, but we are also a proud nation and many are seeing too much change in the social dynamics too quickly for their liking. A swede friend of mine said to me recently, from what he sees; England is a national that is skeptical of immigration, but likes immigrants themselves. Where as with his country, Sweden is a country that is in love with the idea of multiculturalism and immigration's, but struggles socially with the immigrants themselves. He thinks that we are much, much more socially warm and inclusive to foreigners than they are, despite national reputations.

I think I agree with him too, most people in this country, even those very skeptical of immigration, tend not to be in favor of deportations, or ending immigration, or are generaly hateful at all to foreigners as people per se at all. They just want a balance on the process itself, to avoid a too much too fast situation. The real division our society has faced has come as a result of those concerns been ignored for far, far too long, and when those people finally got their chance to make a loud statement (brexit) they were met with vicious hostility, accused of being bigoted, hateful, racist, nazis, far-right whatever. The division in this country is between liberals and average people, between globalists and patriots, between internationalists and nationalists.

Scotland wont leave the UK, aside from there being no economic incentive what so ever, they will also value a 400 year relationship over a 40 year one. One where we share so much more than a land border, over one that is just the flavor of a past generation. The SNP will use the political games to get themselves a referendum, they will lose, and it will be the end of them. Then we can all come together and make Britian great again. One everyone realises it's in all of our bests interests to pull in the same direction over these next 5 years, these wounds will heal and we will emerge stronger.



Thats just my two cents anyway.

[Bacchus]

So what would be the answer?

They can't really have 2 elections, one for Scottish rule/parliment and one for UK Government rule.

The answer is probably Scotland leaving the UK, unfortunately. Much like with Brexit a resentment of the status quo will ultimately trump a more pragmatic view of things.

[Lancasterclaret]

Good post CM, and one I broadly agree with in parts, but I think you are wrong about Scotland.

I'm not sure what "Better together" argument is going to be this time, but its got to be "positive" rather than "negative" and I'm not sure how they can swing that.

[Imploding Turtle]

But what makes you think EU membership is guaranteed as an independent nation? As I see it, the chances are far from certain, and certainly not on the same (very good) terms Scotland had before. Literally everything has changed now, for both the UK, Scotland and the EU.

What on earth makes you think I think EU membership is guarenteed?

[Lancasterclaret]

And Scotland leaving the Uk leaves one of the strongest powers in Europe a hell of a lot weaker, and more importantly, because the SNP don't live in the real world, there is a real danger of the very substantial part of the party that is anti-NATO having their say.

Scotland and the Isles are a vital part of NATO whilst part of the UK

[Imploding Turtle]

Turtles answers are brilliant, the SNP would be proud.


Basically everything is someone elses fault

That's an unsurprisingly dumb interpretation of what i've said.

[ClaretMoffitt]

What on earth makes you think I think EU membership is guarenteed?

Well, you said that you would vote to leave due to Brexit, so I assumed that meant you wanted an independent Scotland in order to again look to be apart of the EU? Was that wrong?

[Paul Waine]

They don't, not even remotely, they do 42% of their trade with England.

But I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. Proper Little Englanders all over this thread.

Where are we on the "Big Englanders," Lancs - the guys who see that we are all part of an international world, the guys who are friends with many people from different nations and many different races (I believe the Scottish and the English are the same race) and the guys who accept that we may see some things differently and can enjoy (and not just tolerate) different opinions and different ways of doing things - in fact who enjoy and value the differences?

The guys, in short, who can focus on the things that can unite us, rather than the things that may divide.

[claretdom]

That's an unsurprisingly dumb interpretation of what i've said.

Feel free to highlight where you haven't blamed someone else, you know you are big on facts and resort to idiot or dumb jibes. You said everything about you by stating all these excuses, bigging up the independence stance moments after admitting you will stay in England.

[Imploding Turtle]

Well, you said that you would vote to leave due to Brexit, so I assumed that meant you wanted an independent Scotland in order to again look to be apart of the EU? Was that wrong?

That's not what i said either.

The only thing stopping me from supporting independence last time was that EU membership as part of the UK was already established. Since that is now not a factor then my other reasons for supporting independence have nothing major to counter them. The UK is heading in a terrible direction socially and economically and i don't want Scotland to be forced into being a part of the Tory's stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

[Lancasterclaret]

Paul, I hope that the expression of dislike to the scots on this thread are the minority of English people.

I can ignore some because they moan at everything, but enough worry me.

[Paul Waine]

That's an unsurprisingly dumb interpretation of what i've said.

Hi IT, you often quote sources that back up your statements. Do you have sources that can back up your explanations of the things that are suggested aren't working so well in Scotland?

[Sidney1st]

That's not what i said either.

The only thing stopping me from supporting independence last time was that EU membership as part of the UK was already established. Since that is now not a factor then my other reasons for supporting independence have nothing major to counter them. The UK is heading in a terrible direction socially and economically and i don't want Scotland to be forced into being a part of the Tory's stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

I'm sure it wasn't just Tories who voted for this Brexit.

[claretandy]

When asked if they wanted to stay in the EU post brexit and post indy ref the Sturgeon dodged the question and waffled on about being ruled by the Tories.

[Imploding Turtle]

Feel free to highlight where you haven't blamed someone else, you know you are big on facts and resort to idiot or dumb jibes. You said everything about you by stating all these excuses, bigging up the independence stance moments after admitting you will stay in England.

I was pretty stongly in favour of independence for Kosovo too but that doesn't mean i wanted to abandon my life here to move there.

And just because i blamed a few things on austerity doesn't mean i blamed nothing on the SNP. Someone said they had been "disasterous". That was blatently bullshit and i pointed out how nothing he used to describe the SNP's supposedly "disasterous" tenure can reasonably be said to be an SNP disaster. Basically his post was full of **** he uncritically took at headline value.

And for ***** sake, when did it become taboo to explain that if Party A makes deep financial cuts that forces Party B into cutting a service to the point that it's not as good as it once was with a better budget, that perhaps it's not really Party Bs fault?

[BennyD]

There has been little advantage to Europe from an economic perspective from many of the nations that have joined but the EU is about more than economic advantage it is about preserving the peace, enabling countries to develop, developing policies which benefit all, it is an alien concept to the English who see themselves as intrinsically superior who will do fine relying on their own resources whilst bringing in loads of foreigners on inferior terms to do the work the great English people don't want to do themselves.
Sadly we are a nation still living on our past deceit, still thinking we saved the World from Hitler. We've been shown on the football pitch just how deluded we are but politically we still haven't grown up.

NATO keeps the peace, not the EU. We enable countries who can't 'develop' by giving them trading advantages, shedloads of cash and unlimited migration to other countries, from which they send back more cash whilst taking that money out of the host nations economy. The CAP and CFP benefit some countries more than others, namely France for the former and Spain for the latter. If we feel so 'intrinsically superior' and employ aliens on inferior wages to do jobs we don't want to do, why do so many foreigners want to come here but don't want to leave?

Also, if we haven't grown up politically, why are the Scots still banging on about a referendum that will f* ck them up for years to come, both politically and financially? Could it be about the fish twins trying to do nothing but create their legacy for generations to come.

Nice touch (not) comparing football to world politics but I suppose you had to sign off a sh!t post somehow.

[claretdom]

Calm down dear you are coming across all Sturgeon like

[Imploding Turtle]

I'm sure it wasn't just Tories who voted for this Brexit.

It'll be the tories who strip workers rights to the bone, restrict unions, and sell off the NHS. So yes, it's their stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

[ClaretMoffitt]

That's not what i said either.

The only thing stopping me from supporting independence last time was that EU membership as part of the UK was already established. Since that is now not a factor then my other reasons for supporting independence have nothing major to counter them. The UK is heading in a terrible direction socially and economically and i don't want Scotland to be forced into being a part of the Tory's stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

Okay that's fair enough i suppose.

But do you think that Scotland could realistically make a fist of independence in the midst of how the western world is changing? They have a lot to try and sustain in terms of public services, more so than any other part of the UK in the Barnett formula. With money from both the EU and the UK going, oil prices being low and hugely increased competition on international markets for things like whiskey. Not to mention a potential currency crisis and a divide up of the nation debt to think about; do you really think that a more "liberal" anti-austerity attitude to the finances would be a great idea for Scotland upon leaving the union?

[Paul Waine]

Paul, I hope that the expression of dislike to the scots on this thread are the minority of English people.

I can ignore some because they moan at everything, but enough worry me.

Hi Lancs, you and me too.

Thing is, if we try and understand some of the issues that are underlying these expressions of dislike we may have something that can be the start to turn these expressions around, to lessen the dislike and, instead, to build some common feelings.

I get why some of the population of Scotland wants independence. I get why the population of the UK wanted out of EU. I get why everywhere in the UK, other than London and the South East, feels neglected by UK politicians (and only South East matters to the BBC).

I believe it's a pretty universal feeling to react to "unfairness" - and this feeling of unfairness can turn to resentment and envy.... And, then we get the ambitions of politicians - but, even politicians are necessary in a democracy.

Let's be optimistic and enjoy the ride!

[Paul Waine]

It'll be the tories who strip workers rights to the bone, restrict unions, and sell off the NHS. So yes, it's their stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

Sources?

[Imploding Turtle]

Hi IT, you often quote sources that back up your statements. Do you have sources that can back up your explanations of the things that are suggested aren't working so well in Scotland?

Unless i provide a source you can reasonably assume that it's just my opinion. You can also reasonably assume my opinion is better informed than right-winger's.

But on the police merger it think it's quite clear why the merger has taken place. To blame the SNP for a power grab when even the metropolitan police commissioner is saying that forces should merge to share resources because of budget cuts i think it's pretty clear that the reason it happen in Scotland is budget cuts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30483314" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -austerity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But the SNP are liberals and right-winger can't bring himself to imagine that something he considers is bad isn't the fault of liberals.

[BennyD]

That's not what i said either.

The only thing stopping me from supporting independence last time was that EU membership as part of the UK was already established. Since that is now not a factor then my other reasons for supporting independence have nothing major to counter them. The UK is heading in a terrible direction socially and economically and i don't want Scotland to be forced into being a part of the Tory's stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

Well, vote out then and stop bleating about the English. However, put your cross in the leave box and then you would be voting to head 'Scotland in a terrible direction socially and economically', but you are too bigoted, or too stupid, to see the big picture. Out of the U.K, out of the EU, no currency of your own, the wealthiest moving south to avoid the necessarily swingeing taxation, no real industry, falling oil stocks and no hand outs from Westminster. How is that going to end badly? Answers on a postcard to anyone who gives a sh!t because I certainly don't.

[Sidney1st]

It'll be the tories who strip workers rights to the bone, restrict unions, and sell off the NHS. So yes, it's their stupid ultra-capitalist experiment.

That would be the same Tories who've stated they will enshrine all current EU legislation re workers rights into UK law....

As for the NHS, it needs dealing with, whether parts of it are privatised or completely reformed, something needs to be done with it before it collapses under it's own mismanagement.
It needs taking out of political football and handed to a cross party group to control it, but that won't happen because they all like blaming each other for a mess the 2 main parties have helped create.

Restrict Unions -
The same unions who call a strike when barely half of a vote made by 2/3rds of their members wants to strike?
Or the Union that agrees to driver only operated trains in one part of the country but kick up a stink when another area wants to do the same?
Or the same unions that seem to go on strike every single year over pay and conditions....?

Something needs to be done to make things a little fairer in regards to what Unions get up to, that's my opinion.

I'm guessing you'd rather Labour were in charge ******* the country up the wall?
They're no better then the Tories at doing that one.

[claretdom]

Unless i provide a source you can reasonably assume that it's just my opinion. You can also reasonably assume my opinion is better informed than everyone else.

Corrected it for you

[nil_desperandum]

I'm not sure that being in the EU is the crucial point here.
Remaining in, or joining the EU is possibly not attainable in the short term for an independent Scotland, but that's not necessarily a problem.
Sturgeon, (or her negotiators), could spend the next 2 years looking at a deal whereby an independent Scotland would join the Single market and the Customs Union, (a sort of Norway or Switzerland arrangement), whilst the "May team" fail in an attempt to secure a deal, and we end up with no deal and reverting to WTO rules, border controls etc.
If she could pull that "rabbit out of the hat", whilst we are still floundering to make a deal, then both the Scots and the EU might be quite happy.
As I understand it, Sturgeon has said that it's the push for "hard" Brexit, and May's refusal to consider Scotland remaining in the Single Market that has been the catalyst for a 2nd referendum, so she hasn't said that remaining fully in the EU is non-negotiable.

[Sidney1st]

I doubt May would let them hold another referendum until after Brexit has been completed.

The EU won't be allowed to negotiate with Scotland until then, seeing as the UK can't negotiate it's own trade deals until after it leaves the EU.

[bob-the-scutter]

You could just as easily say the same about UKIP and the Eurosceptic Tories who have betrayed the United Kingdom with their blinkered obsession.

We're getting ourselves into such a huge mess on so many fronts that it merely reinforces my view that Brexit is, and always was, a monumentally stupid idea.

I think you`ll find it was a brilliant idea in the long term as we all know the EU will implode within the next few years, There are quite a few countries watching our referendum to see what happened, there will now be more exits to come.

[Caballo]

Unless i provide a source you can reasonably assume that it's just my opinion. You can also reasonably assume my opinion is better informed than right-winger's.

Conceited much?

[Imploding Turtle]

That would be the same Tories who've stated they will enshrine all current EU legislation re workers rights into UK law....

First of all, how naive.

Second, they're already a part of UK law. And even those that aren't can be added and then removed exactly like how some Tories are talking about repealing the Fixed-Term Parliament Act because doing so is convenient.
The fact that these laws were also EU laws meant that while the UK is in the EU repealing them here would have no effect except to hurt the Tories politically and strengthen support for EU membership. Once were out i'm in no doubt that the Tories will be looking at our collective bargaining rights, holiday entitlements, maternity and paternity leave, sick pay.

These people in power don't give a **** about our rights and they don't give a **** about their promises either. Within minutes (literally minutes) of their election in 2015 our current Prime Minister had already u-turned on a campaign promise not to pursue the snoopers' charter. What the **** has she or her party done since then to make you think that they give a **** about keeping promises?

[Sidney1st]

First of all, how naive.

Second, they're already a part of UK law. And even those that aren't can be added and then removed exactly like how some Tories are talking about repealing the Fixed-Term Parliament Act because doing so is convenient.
The fact that these laws were also EU laws meant that while the UK is in the EU repealing them here would have no effect except to hurt the Tories politically and strengthen support for EU membership. Once were out i'm in no doubt that the Tories will be looking at our collective bargaining rights, holiday entitlements, maternity and paternity leave, sick pay.

These people in power don't give a **** about our rights and they don't give a **** about their promises either. Within minutes (literally minutes) of their election in 2015 our current Prime Minister had already u-turned on a campaign promise not to pursue the snoopers' charter. What the **** has she or her party done since then to make you think that they give a **** about keeping promises?

They all break promises for starters, they're all in it for themselves, if you think otherwise you're naive.

They'll enshrine everything and then look at what they do or don't want over time, I already know that much.

If they proceed to get rid of all the good stuff then they'll lose power for a long time and they won't like that one, although you probably aren't thinking about that one.

[JohnMcGreal]

Well, vote out then and stop bleating about the English. However, put your cross in the leave box and then you would be voting to head 'Scotland in a terrible direction socially and economically', but you are too bigoted, or too stupid, to see the big picture.

[BennyD]

It works both ways, but thanks for highlighting it anyway. You (Scots) won't be laughing if it happens, but we (English) will be.

[JohnMcGreal]

Economically, both ideas (Scottish Independence and a hard Brexit for the UK) are utterly stupid. I don't think there'll be many people laughing about all of this in years to come.

[Paul Waine]

First of all, how naive.

Second, they're already a part of UK law. And even those that aren't can be added and then removed exactly like how some Tories are talking about repealing the Fixed-Term Parliament Act because doing so is convenient.
The fact that these laws were also EU laws meant that while the UK is in the EU repealing them here would have no effect except to hurt the Tories politically and strengthen support for EU membership. Once were out i'm in no doubt that the Tories will be looking at our collective bargaining rights, holiday entitlements, maternity and paternity leave, sick pay.

These people in power don't give a **** about our rights and they don't give a **** about their promises either. Within minutes (literally minutes) of their election in 2015 our current Prime Minister had already u-turned on a campaign promise not to pursue the snoopers' charter. What the **** has she or her party done since then to make you think that they give a **** about keeping promises?

Hi IT, I guess we put this one in "your opinion" box?

I doubt there's any going back on "holiday entitlements, maternity and paternity leave, sick pay." There need to be controls over public service unions activities (transport, doctors, nurses, electricity, water etc). But, aren't we all going "self-employed" and deciding our own benefits (and taxes)?

I agree, I guess most of us do, that politicians have a bad habit of forgetting what they said to get elected. It doesn't matter which party is in power - we get the politicians we deserve.

[Paul Waine]

BTW: Fixed-term Parliament Act was necessary for the 2010 Coalition - but otherwise a bad idea. Why should an unpopular PM try to keep herself (or himself) in power for a full 5 years? Why can't they call an election and be removed sooner?

The good bit about the US fixed terms is that POTUS can only serve for 2 fixed terms max. We should also have appropriate limits on UK politicians.

[nil_desperandum]

BTW: Fixed-term Parliament Act was necessary for the 2010 Coalition - but otherwise a bad idea. Why should an unpopular PM try to keep herself (or himself) in power for a full 5 years? Why can't they call an election and be removed sooner?

They can, but they need to have it approved by Parliament, (with a majority of more than 66%). Under normal circumstances this shouldn't be an issue, but if May put this to the vote now, I doubt there would be enough Labour MPs who would back her to get it through!! (Bizarre but most likely true).
There can also be an early election if a Govt loses a "Vote of confidence".

[Right_winger]

Quite amusing seeing IT go off the rails.

Things he fails to mention,

The SNP could have avoided VAT payments from centralising the police force, if they were locally accountable. This was t an option as They want to control the police and use VAT as an excuse to mine grievance against Westminster. With the geographical layout of Scotland A Centalised force could never work effectively. There's a lot of rural area's where only local knowledge is effective.

With regards to the budgets, the SNP also have the powers to raise and change these as required. This wouldn't suit their grievance agenda though.

IT is just a typica lefty, rants and raves claiming his opinion is correct and anyone who disagrees is a capitalist pig. IT loves to sit an snipe away trying to discredit those who he disagrees with. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts IT.

And god forbid cries at democracy in action when it goes against his ideologies.

Well IT, Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and the UK voted to leave the EU. Suck it up buttercup.

[RingoMcCartney]

The Left

Accuse the Right of wanting everybody to LOOK like themselves.

The Left demand that everybody THINK like themselves.

And if you don't. They play the man. Not the ball. Tired old name calling and all the stereotypical clichéd attempts at character assassinations and personal abuse. They're becoming increasingly desparate and irrational.

In this country, they are an ever-dwindling obscure clique, and they're blissfully unaware of it!

And finally.

To paraphrase the Swedish football commentator-

Tim Farron, hilary benn, Gina miller, keir Starmer, Tony Bliar, Mandelson, Angela Eagle, Bob Geldof, Eddie Izzard, channel 4 news , the guardian, paddy Ashdown, the IMF, The ECB, Kenneth Clarke, Anna soubry, The whole of the Kinnock family, the Governor of the bank of England, Will Self, Nick Clegg, Michael Heseltine, Michael Crick, the ONS, John Snow, the BBC, James Obrian, I could go on. But most of all. Yes most of all. All the Up The Clarets Remoaners who are now squirming and talking double speak when it comes to independence for Scotland.

YOUR BOYS TOOK ONE HELL OF A BEATING!!!!!!!

[lakesclaret]

Any truth in the rumour that Nicola Sturgeon has a fully functioning pen1s?

[brexit]

As it is a Union it is only fair that England gets vote to become independent of the Jocks, then we can vote on the taffs and the (what is the pejorative for the Northern Irish) ?

[RingoMcCartney]

Any truth in the rumour that Nicola Sturgeon has a fully functioning pen1s?

The rumour's still to be confirmed pal.

But you can guarantee if she ever gets brewer's droop , it'll be the fault of the English!!!!!!

[Pstotto]

Anyway at least if aliens visit us, we have a representative to frighten them off.

[BennyD]

Any truth in the rumour that Nicola Sturgeon has a fully functioning pen1s?

If s/he has, it's the only thing that is fully functional.

[BennyD]

As it is a Union it is only fair that England gets vote to become independent of the Jocks, then we can vote on the taffs and the (what is the pejorative for the Northern Irish) ?

Micks.

[Spiral]

No way Spain will allow Scotland to join as an independent nation. Its a non starter .If they do then Catalonia and the Basque region will be next!

This is a talking point from the last indyref in response to Sturgeon's claim that Scotland would be granted instant access to the EU, or another way of looking at it, that they would never leave the EU. Brexit has obviously changed Scotland's status as a member but there is absolutely no opposition in Europe, even in Spain, to access through normal procedure. They would be, in the words of the Spanish foreign minister, "at the back of the queue", of course, but it's incorrect to say that the concern over precedent in relation to the Basque and Catalonia situations would act as a barrier to membership.

[Damo]

I thought this thread was about Scotland wanting to leave the United Kingdom.
You would think, by some comments from the usual suspects that it was the English, racist, right wing, nazi, hitlers, that have forced them to want to leave to save them from some perceived persecution

[nil_desperandum]

The issue of Spain (Catalans / Basques etc), might not be relevant in any case if Scotland took the more logical and least complicated route of not applying to join the EU, but simply joining the Single Market, and the Customs Union, whilst adopting all relevant EU laws into their own constitution. I would think that this could be achieved very quickly indeed with little negotiation, rather than the years it might take to complete a deal for full membership. I presume this would also mean that they would not have to commit to joining the Euro, and greater integration. They could then spend as long as necessary to negotiate the best deal for full membership if they decided that it was the best option.