It's not just about Brexit

[Devils_Advocate]

As far as I can see the biggest bedwetters at the moment are the Ashford Brexiteers and their Brexit supporting MP who are crying about the big car park thats gonna be built next to their lovely town

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/ne ... ve-230222/

[RingoMcCartney]

I’ll continue to call out made up rubbish as long as you continue to speak it.

I’ll also continue to point out made up rubbish your side spouted as long as you continue to deny it was ever said!


Your lot predicted not just food shortages but riots as well!

UK’s worst-case no-deal Brexit plan warns of food shortages, public disorder

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-eur ... -disorder/

‘No-deal’ Brexit could cause shortages of food, drugs, fresh water, secret U.K. government memos warn

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/no-de ... 2019-08-18

If a no-deal Brexit will cause water shortages and the return of the black market, panic is a rational response

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 02101.html

No-deal Brexit could lead to clean drinking water shortage

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 99491.html


No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers

Sainsbury's, Asda and McDonald's are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47028748

[martin_p]

I've got my own stalker.

It just concerns me that using outright lies to try and further an argument seems to be seen as acceptable practice these days. It’d be less worrying if it was just on a football message board but it infects political discourse throughout the country, including the current government and PM.

[martin_p]

I’ll also continue to point out made up rubbish your side spouted as long as you continue to deny it was ever said!


Your lot predicted not just food shortages but riots as well!

UK’s worst-case no-deal Brexit plan warns of food shortages, public disorder

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-eur ... -disorder/

‘No-deal’ Brexit could cause shortages of food, drugs, fresh water, secret U.K. government memos warn

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/no-de ... 2019-08-18

If a no-deal Brexit will cause water shortages and the return of the black market, panic is a rational response

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 02101.html

No-deal Brexit could lead to clean drinking water shortage

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 99491.html


No-deal Brexit 'to leave shelves empty' warn retailers

Sainsbury's, Asda and McDonald's are among those warning stockpiling fresh food is impossible and that the UK is very reliant on the EU for produce.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47028748

I wasn’t aware that the no deal Brexit that would allow us to assess whether the predictions were right or wrong had happened.

[dsr]

It just concerns me that using outright lies to try and further an argument seems to be seen as acceptable practice these days. It’d be less worrying if it was just on a football message board but it infects political discourse throughout the country, including the current government and PM.

Before you go too far down this road of making a fool of yourself, why not look up what "hyperbole" means? Or alternatively, if you really do want to prove what a clever dick you are, then add Devil's Advocate to your list of outright liars (aka users of hyperbole) to at least prove that your clever dickery is even handed and not just personal?

[RingoMcCartney]

I wasn’t aware that the no deal Brexit that would allow us to assess whether the predictions were right or wrong had happened.

Remoaners- just the, sore loser, Robertson of politics.


https://twitter.com/DLRbrts/status/1282 ... 34978?s=20

YOU DIDNT GET THE RESULT YOU EXPECTED!

GET THE **** OVER IT!

[Devils_Advocate]

I didnt realise that operation yellow hammer was 'our side' and not an output of the govts contingency planning assessment for 'No Deal'

[RingoMcCartney]

I didnt realise that operation yellow hammer was 'our side' and not an output of the govts contingency planning assessment for 'No Deal'

Remoaners- just the, sore loser, Robertson of politics.


https://twitter.com/DLRbrts/status/1282 ... 34978?s=20

YOU DIDNT GET THE RESULT YOU EXPECTED!

GET THE **** OVER IT!

[RingoMcCartney]

Remoaners- throwing their toys out of the pram for over : 4 years!

[Devils_Advocate]

You're the ones who seem to get all upset (despite being the big winners). I mean you cant even manage a sensible discussion on here without crying to the mods or just getting it pulled cos of your nonsense

You'd impress Debbie McGee with the amount of threads you make disappear on this forum.

Brexit: You'll like this.......not a lot!

[nil_desperandum]

We are leaving with no deal lads.
Try and spin the good and bad out of that how you see fit but that's the default and what we all voted for

I'm afraid that's just nonsense. It's not what "we all voted for" at all in fact it was never even mentioned in the run-up to the referendum.
Prior to the vote, what we got were constant and - to some - convincing promises / predictions that it would be the easiest deal in history. Even Farage was promoting a so-called "Norway" deal.
here's today's man Michael Gove in 2016:
Two days before the referendum he told the BBC: "We'll be in a position I think to secure a better deal than the one that we have now.
"No-one is seriously arguing that Britain would be outside that free trade area, that tariff barriers would be erected and that Britain's manufacturing goods would be at a disadvantage."
And again:
Mr Gove told the Daily Mail in March this year: "We didn't vote to leave without a deal. That wasn't the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey."
I can find quotes from others who led the Brexit campaign if you need any further evidence. Farage (e.g.) was filmed on Question Time saying there would be a deal.

[Devils_Advocate]

[Damo]

I mean you cant even manage a sensible discussion on here without crying to the mods or just getting it pulled cos of your nonsense

You'd impress Debbie McGee with the amount of threads you make disappear on this forum.

Top trolling indeed

[Damo]

I'm afraid that's just nonsense. It's not what "we all voted for" at all in fact it was never even mentioned in the run-up to the referendum.
Prior to the vote, what we got were constant and - to some - convincing promises / predictions that it would be the easiest deal in history. Even Farage was promoting a so-called "Norway" deal.
here's today's man Michael Gove in 2016:
Two days before the referendum he told the BBC: "We'll be in a position I think to secure a better deal than the one that we have now.
"No-one is seriously arguing that Britain would be outside that free trade area, that tariff barriers would be erected and that Britain's manufacturing goods would be at a disadvantage."
And again:
Mr Gove told the Daily Mail in March this year: "We didn't vote to leave without a deal. That wasn't the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey."
I can find quotes from others who led the Brexit campaign if you need any further evidence. Farage (e.g.) was filmed on Question Time saying there would be a deal.

I've posted the video of what leave meant several times on here and never received a reply
Gutted for you that your remain vote didn't result in a post brexit deal too btw

[cblantfanclub]

I’m not supporting leave or remain but we can’t escape the fact the public get lied to again and again so much so it’s just accepted now which is very worrying. Obviously from these quotes nobody has any idea how this will shake down.

Nigel Farage: deal with the EU Will be the easiest in trade history,

David Davis: EU Will be so desperate to sell us cars they will sign any deal we put in front of them.

Liam Fox, we hold all the cards deal with the EU shouldn't take more than six months.

David Davis, May 2016: "The first calling point of the UK's negotiator immediately after Brexit will not be Brussels, it will be Berlin, to strike a deal. Would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else."



I think the public don’t bother about being lied to now – it’s the norm.

[JohnMcGreal]

We are leaving with no deal lads.
Try and spin the good and bad out of that how you see fit but that's the default and what we all voted for

That simply isn't true.

[JohnMcGreal]

No, my position has always been that the situation will be sorted out one way or another but it might mean cutting corners for a little while. As opposed to the anti-EU position posited by many on here who reckoned that corners would not be cut and that the government would rather see people starve to death than to change any systems. That was the real "project fear".

I think it's a little unreasonable to criticise the government for spending money to stop people from starving and to ensure the supply of essential drugs. Hypocritical, in fact. And ridiculous. not to say stupid. I suppose it all comes under the anti-Brexit view of "the government has done something, therefore I am opposed".

But surely you can see that to even find ourselves in a situation like that shows what a calamity this has been for the UK.

That would mean that after 3+ years of negotiation, we've failed to agree even a basic trade arrangement with our closest neighbours.

The result being that we then have to essentially wave everything through the borders in order to prevent a major disaster. Which leaves us open to all sorts of claims made against us in the WTO for giving EU goods preferential treatment. Unless we're going to wave everything through the border from every country in the world?

Make no mistake, this would signal a heavy international defeat for the UK. A defeat at the hands of itself.

[nil_desperandum]

I've posted the video of what leave meant several times on here and never received a reply
Gutted for you that your remain vote didn't result in a post brexit deal too btw

It's really simple. As part of the "leave" campaign, Gove etc promised voters that when we left we would get a good deal. It would be "the easiest thing in history" etc.
I even quoted Gove as recently as March saying that we never voted for "no deal". So why not simply admit that on this specific point you were mistaken?.
It's interesting that you're "gutted" for me that there'll be no deal. If there's "no deal" for me then there'll be "no deal" for you either, so theoretically at least we'll both be affected equally.
i.e. if the price of my shopping basket goes up then most likely yours will too. Conversely, if "no deal" is a good thing then we should both share in the dividend. (We don't hear much nowadays though about any brexit dividend, most of the talk is of "being ok", or "surviving".)

[Jakubclaret]

See the usual drama queens/suspects are out in force, everything will sort itself out, it’s only recently we’ve left & still awaiting for the rules & changes.

[aggi]

We are leaving with no deal lads.
Try and spin the good and bad out of that how you see fit but that's the default and what we all voted for
Our government have accepted that. Its time the eu and remainers did

Keep up, it's not No Deal, it's an Australian type deal now.

Fortunately, for the government, a lot of people will believe that is actually something different rather than sophistry.

[AndrewJB]

Johnson cementing his position as our most useless PM ever. The Tory Party feeding working people sh** sandwiches, and making them say “thank you” for the privilege.

[NottsClaret]

The Tory Party feeding working people sh** sandwiches, and making them say “thank you” for the privilege.

This much is true, but the bootlickers absolutely lap it up. They'd vote for more of the same. Funny how they're so against 'taking a knee' but will happily prostrate themselves to some inbred toff looter, taking everything they've got.

[KateR]

Nice to see nothing has changed, battle lines still draw, it's like a WW I movies, everyone firmly in the trenches knowing the are absolutely 100% right and not willing to give a yard. Yet in fact nothing is know except some people are talking and we will find out in due course, over several years of so called experts being flown up flag poles only for them to proven wrong time and time again and yet the BFC experts still trot out the same drivel.

Carry on, nothing to see here, just some children having a slanging match

[Spijed]

Keep up, it's not No Deal, it's an Australian type deal now.

Fortunately, for the government, a lot of people will believe that is actually something different rather than sophistry.

But, but, but Australia don't have a deal!!!

[CrosspoolClarets]

So important for an Independent UK to have a world voice again with the rise of China. Control of borders, independent trade, and a compassionate but strong foreign policy are all crucial. We had none of these in the EU.

Things appear to be aligning towards a deal now the economic effects of Covid are becoming clear, that’s good, and I for one am not going to speculate if the govt have done well until I know what that deal is on Dec 31st. It’ll be smoke and mirrors until then.

[AndrewJB]

So important for an Independent UK to have a world voice again with the rise of China. Control of borders, independent trade, and a compassionate but strong foreign policy are all crucial. We had none of these in the EU.

Things appear to be aligning towards a deal now the economic effects of Covid are becoming clear, that’s good, and I for one am not going to speculate if the govt have done well until I know what that deal is on Dec 31st. It’ll be smoke and mirrors until then.

I don’t agree that the UK’s international position is strengthened by leaving the EU. Certainly not in terms of trade negotiations (there’s no denying the EU negotiating as a block is stronger than us by ourselves). You make a bold assertion that we had no control of our borders, and couldn’t pursue a compassionate but strong foreign policy while in the EU. Do you have any examples to share? As for trade, the EU enabled trade by signing trade deals around the world. We played our part in negotiating these, and were able to trade under them. If anything, leaving the EU is a retrograde step in terms of trade. Again, maybe you can provide some examples of how I’m looking at it wrong?

[AndrewJB]

https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... y.html?m=1

[tiger76]

We are leaving with no deal lads.
Try and spin the good and bad out of that how you see fit but that's the default and what we all voted for
Our government have accepted that. Its time the eu and remainers did

I voted to leave, i didn't vote to leave without a deal, bear in mind that if we don't get a sensible deal, and we hopefully still might yet, there's a much greater chance of the UK (if the UK is still intact) of rejoining sooner rather than later.

[aggi]

At least we still have a sense of humour
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ganization

[dougcollins]

Yellowhammer.

One word.

It's a bird.

[tiger76]

Just seen the government ad about businesses preparing for when the transition period ends, how are they supposed to prepare when they have no idea what they're actually preparing for, they could put systems in place now, and 2/3 months down the line everything could change again, what business needs is certainty, and they aren't getting that from this government.

[aggi]

So important for an Independent UK to have a world voice again with the rise of China. Control of borders, independent trade, and a compassionate but strong foreign policy are all crucial. We had none of these in the EU.

Things appear to be aligning towards a deal now the economic effects of Covid are becoming clear, that’s good, and I for one am not going to speculate if the govt have done well until I know what that deal is on Dec 31st. It’ll be smoke and mirrors until then.

It's a nice idea but yesterday aptly illustrated the reality. We're in a precarious position re: trade deals and ended up having to backtrack and do what the USA told us to.

[aggi]

Again, maybe you can provide some examples of how I’m looking at it wrong?

Getting specific examples from people on this kind of stuff is like getting blood out of a stone. It's like the EU red tape that's hindering us all but no one can say how.

[martin_p]

I think the benefits of Brexit are becoming clearer. It gives us the freedom to do exactly what the USA want without having to worry what the EU will think.

[clarethomer]

Red tape that nobody knows about?

- the ability to strike your own trade deals
- the ability to provide state aid how you see fit


Now I appreciate that there will be counter arguments to this and you could argue that being outside of the EU presents more red tape now to borders etc.

Can’t wait for the point where people can just let go of what has happened and start focusing on the future and how we make the most of this.

Not going to be easy by any means but it certainly is always a lot harder when you have a weight to drag on the journey with you as they just can’t accept that democratic change has now taken place.

[JohnMcGreal]

It's quite hard to 'just let go of what has happened' when people keep attempting to re-write history by claiming things like:

'Not going to be easy by any means'

Which is the exact opposite of what it was supposed to be, according to Leavers in 2016.

But to be fair, you've got a point about focusing on the future, and this is what we're facing in the very near future:

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/fi ... t_en_0.pdf

Reams and reams of red tape, friction and barriers where none existed previously, and a border right through the middle of the UK. And that's just for starters.

[AndrewJB]

Red tape that nobody knows about?

- the ability to strike your own trade deals
- the ability to provide state aid how you see fit


Now I appreciate that there will be counter arguments to this and you could argue that being outside of the EU presents more red tape now to borders etc.

Can’t wait for the point where people can just let go of what has happened and start focusing on the future and how we make the most of this.

Not going to be easy by any means but it certainly is always a lot harder when you have a weight to drag on the journey with you as they just can’t accept that democratic change has now taken place.

We will soon get to see how good that has been for us because Japan have given us six weeks to sign up to their offer or forget about it. We have just a few weeks left. Will it be as good as the deal we already had as members of the EU? Was it a bit cheeky and disrespectful of the Japanese to give us six weeks? I would say so, but that’s what happens when you’re a small market going it alone in a big world.

[Spijed]

Well, well:
https://www-examinerlive-co-uk.cdn.ampp ... zqwe-uk8M4

[clarethomer]

We will soon get to see how good that has been for us because Japan have given us six weeks to sign up to their offer or forget about it. We have just a few weeks left. Will it be as good as the deal we already had as members of the EU? Was it a bit cheeky and disrespectful of the Japanese to give us six weeks? I would say so, but that’s what happens when you’re a small market going it alone in a big world.

Will it be as good as the deal we had as members of the EU?

Given that the deal is based on the EU-Japan deal struck last year, I would hope so...

It's amazing that (using your words) as a small market, we have been able to secure this. Sounds like timings are more enforced due to parliamentary breaks than anything else.

[clarethomer]

It's quite hard to 'just let go of what has happened' when people keep attempting to re-write history by claiming things like:

'Not going to be easy by any means'

Which is the exact opposite of what it was supposed to be, according to Leavers in 2016.

But to be fair, you've got a point about focusing on the future, and this is what we're facing in the very near future:

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/fi ... t_en_0.pdf

Reams and reams of red tape, friction and barriers where none existed previously, and a border right through the middle of the UK. And that's just for starters.

It'll be reet!

On a more serious note, I wonder how much more difficult this has been because of those against the democratic vote have hindered and shackled the process over the last 3 years.

I don't know any more than anyone else in terms of where the sliding doors alternate version of events would have seen us go but it's time for people to get over it. People talk about this as a process that has a finite time to it and will end with a winner and a loser. It's not a finite its an infinite process which will continue where the EU will do their thing and we will do ours.

We need to look to the future and spitting dummies out because we now have borders to negotiate is pretty much standard in most parts of the world so once we have negotiated the time for businesses to adjust, it's not going to be the end of the world in the bigger scheme of things.

There are upsides to having borders too..

[TheFamilyCat]

It'll be reet!

On a more serious note, I wonder how much more difficult this has been because of those against the democratic vote have hindered and shackled the process over the last 3 years.

I don't know any more than anyone else in terms of where the sliding doors alternate version of events would have seen us go but it's time for people to get over it. People talk about this as a process that has a finite time to it and will end with a winner and a loser. It's not a finite its an infinite process which will continue where the EU will do their thing and we will do ours.

We need to look to the future and spitting dummies out because we now have borders to negotiate is pretty much standard in most parts of the world so once we have negotiated the time for businesses to adjust, it's not going to be the end of the world in the bigger scheme of things.

There are upsides to having borders too..

Do you mean people who voted against the WAs, people like Boris "Get Brexit Done" Johnson?

[clarethomer]

Having a majority in Parliament that were remain in leaning were the problem why we had years of pain with all of this.

[TheFamilyCat]

Maybe a Brexiteer should've fronted up when Cameron ran away.

[aggi]

Having a majority in Parliament that were remain in leaning were the problem why we had years of pain with all of this.

I think having absolutely no plan and a load of people who were insistent it would be really easy was why we had years of pain.

[clarethomer]

Never mind eh.. What could have been wasn't. Democracy came through in the end

[nil_desperandum]

Having a majority in Parliament that were remain in leaning were the problem why we had years of pain with all of this.

The only problem with that theory is that there was always a majority in Parliament for pressing on with an agreement, but two groups of extremists - the ERG and the DUP repeatedly voted against it, and this includes our current PM. There was always a Tory majority when you include DUP votes, and additionally there were some Labour MPs who were prepared to vote for various deals, but no one at the top of the Tory party could hold them together.
In basic mathematical terms it wasn't "remainers" who continually blocked progress but "no deal" leavers.

[clarethomer]

The only problem with that theory is that there was always a majority in Parliament for pressing on with an agreement, but two groups of extremists - the ERG and the DUP repeatedly voted against it, and this includes our current PM. There was always a Tory majority when you include DUP votes, and additionally there were some Labour MPs who were prepared to vote for various deals, but no one at the top of the Tory party could hold them together.
In basic mathematical terms it wasn't "remainers" who continually blocked progress but "no deal" leavers.

You are probably better representing what happened in the end to be fair.

Problem is that we are 4 years on from the vote and there have been hundreds (possibly even thousands) of reference points which people could go back to choose their argument carefully.

We have had people pushing the no deal agenda from day 1.

We have had remainers frustrating the process.

We have had parties looking for political capital and favours/advantages

We had 3 years of going around in circles arguing as a country

We had 3 years of bercow appearing to make up his own rules (or going against expected process) and people using every trick in the book to frustrate the process.

My point is that all of this combined has been the cause and effect of where we are today. I suspect that if we had got on with the process and not had all of the above, we may have been in a better position than where we are now.

However, given all that has gone on, we are finally delivering the democratic vote of leaving the EU. People may be pleased, people may be unsure but happy to see where it goes, people may be worried. I get that but the focus should now be on positive forward looking actions to get us through what will undoubtedly be some turbulence.

To come on here and claim that we are an insignificant trading partner and present that our lack of EU status is getting us a worse deal than what we would have got when its based on the same deal is just not helpful and it's the same poster who whenever challenged about his views, he swiftly moves on to his next point.

It feels like the last few years has seen the rise of the hard left and they are equally as repugnant as those who are extreme to the right. This battle of the extreme views is what is most annoying with all of this as it gets in the way of proper debate/discussion.

[Devils_Advocate]

Brexit Bullsh*t does Trade Deals

[nil_desperandum]

You are probably better representing what happened in the end to be fair.

Problem is that we are 4 years on from the vote and there have been hundreds (possibly even thousands) of reference points which people could go back to choose their argument carefully.

We have had people pushing the no deal agenda from day 1.

We have had remainers frustrating the process.

We have had parties looking for political capital and favours/advantages

We had 3 years of going around in circles arguing as a country

We had 3 years of bercow appearing to make up his own rules (or going against expected process) and people using every trick in the book to frustrate the process.

My point is that all of this combined has been the cause and effect of where we are today. I suspect that if we had got on with the process and not had all of the above, we may have been in a better position than where we are now.

However, given all that has gone on, we are finally delivering the democratic vote of leaving the EU. People may be pleased, people may be unsure but happy to see where it goes, people may be worried. I get that but the focus should now be on positive forward looking actions to get us through what will undoubtedly be some turbulence.

To come on here and claim that we are an insignificant trading partner and present that our lack of EU status is getting us a worse deal than what we would have got when its based on the same deal is just not helpful and it's the same poster who whenever challenged about his views, he swiftly moves on to his next point.

It feels like the last few years has seen the rise of the hard left and they are equally as repugnant as those who are extreme to the right. This battle of the extreme views is what is most annoying with all of this as it gets in the way of proper debate/discussion.

A lot of points to digest there and no time to "debate" them all, but we can certainly both agree with your final paragraph.

[AndrewJB]

You are probably better representing what happened in the end to be fair.

Problem is that we are 4 years on from the vote and there have been hundreds (possibly even thousands) of reference points which people could go back to choose their argument carefully.

We have had people pushing the no deal agenda from day 1.

We have had remainers frustrating the process.

We have had parties looking for political capital and favours/advantages

We had 3 years of going around in circles arguing as a country

We had 3 years of bercow appearing to make up his own rules (or going against expected process) and people using every trick in the book to frustrate the process.

My point is that all of this combined has been the cause and effect of where we are today. I suspect that if we had got on with the process and not had all of the above, we may have been in a better position than where we are now.

However, given all that has gone on, we are finally delivering the democratic vote of leaving the EU. People may be pleased, people may be unsure but happy to see where it goes, people may be worried. I get that but the focus should now be on positive forward looking actions to get us through what will undoubtedly be some turbulence.

To come on here and claim that we are an insignificant trading partner and present that our lack of EU status is getting us a worse deal than what we would have got when its based on the same deal is just not helpful and it's the same poster who whenever challenged about his views, he swiftly moves on to his next point.

It feels like the last few years has seen the rise of the hard left and they are equally as repugnant as those who are extreme to the right. This battle of the extreme views is what is most annoying with all of this as it gets in the way of proper debate/discussion.

I disagree with you on so many of your points. Once the referendum was over the government didn't speak with the people or with other parties about what Brexit would look like. The government kept all of it to themselves, and so therefore they have to take ownership of the muddle and mess the last four years have been. I see you attempting to blame "remainers" and Bercow, but the fact remains that the government was solely in control of the UK's negotiations, the content of the various withdrawal bills (which many including Johnson voted against), and the even worse withdrawal agreement that Johnson eventually got through parliament.

I didn't say we were an insignificant trade partner, but that alone we are much weaker than we were when in the EU when it comes to striking trade deals. A population of 500 Million is a more attractive market than one of 60 Million. That's just a fact.

And what is this rubbish about the "rise of the far left"? The far left has remained fairly insignificant in this country for decades. If you're going to use political terms, at least try to be accurate.