O/T Madeleine McCann

[TVC15]

No and No.

The hospitals should however be taken to task and employees at the time too.

Yes I know and agree.
So why bring what he did into this thread ?

To get back to the point clearly some parents thought that leaving there children on their own at night whilst they went to have a meal or drink was safe - and for 99.9% of the time they were safe so it’s not an unreasonable view to think that this was considered acceptable at this time by society....irrespective of whether me or you or Rick would never consider doing this with our children.

The risk that somebody could take your child was always there but it is also there in lots of other situations - as is them being abused. It’s usually when horrific incidents like this case or Saville happen that people take stock and decide to become more vigilant or change things that previously they did. How many parents who used to do exactly what the McCanns did for years no longer do this ? Does not necessarily follow that they were bad parents who should have their kids taken from them.

Using terms like neglect and saying anyone who does this deserves to lose their child is just way over the top in my view.

[Rick_Muller]

Yes I know and agree.
So why bring what he did into this thread ?

To get back to the point clearly some parents thought that leaving there children on their own at night whilst they went to have a meal or drink was safe - and for 99.9% of the time they were safe so it’s not an unreasonable view to think that this was considered acceptable at this time by society....irrespective of whether me or you or Rick would never consider doing this with our children.

The risk that somebody could take your child was always there but it is also there in lots of other situations - as is them being abused. It’s usually when horrific incidents like this case or Saville happen that people take stock and decide to become more vigilant or change things that previously they did. How many parents who used to do exactly what the McCanns did for years no longer do this ? Does not necessarily follow that they were bad parents who should have their kids taken from them.

Using terms like neglect and saying anyone who does this deserves to lose their child is just way over the top in my view.

If you think that leaving children (any children, but especially very young children) alone in a room; apartment; villa while the responsible parent goes to have a meal or get drunk in the bar, then fine - we disagree because however you try and argue the case for it it is neglect, and if caught the parents should have or had intervention from Social Services (in whatever year it happened!).

I remember family holidays in the 70's and 80's with my parents - we were never left alone as has been described - the fact that some members of society did doesn't mean that it is right or acceptable.

You are right about me highlighting the vile Savile in this - it was a wrong comparison and I apologise for doing it - it was the only extreme case I could think of at the time to highlight that what was once acceptable is no longer accepted.

[TVC15]

Where did I say I thought it was ok to leave your children alone ?

I have repeatedly said I have never and would never done this.

Where we differ is that you think that parents who do this deserve to lose their children and I do not think that.

I was also never left alone by my parents on holiday but plenty of children were and I cannot remember any parents, members of the public, or the authorities who took the views you seem to have now. I’m not saying it was right to do this but it was certainly “acceptable”.

If it was not acceptable to all these people then something would have been done about it by the police, social services, the hotels / holiday companies etc etc

It’s a sweeping and stereotypical statement to say these parents are doing it so they can go off and get drunk every night.

How about a single parent who leaves their child for 5 minutes as they pop to the chemist for some Calpol ? Is this neglect ? Do they deserve to lose their child ? Have you established your own boundaries or rules with these situations ?

Did the McCanns not say that the adults were taking it in turns to check the room every few minutes ? I still think this is wrong and would never do this myself but we are into a whole minefiekd as to what is acceptable and what is not when it only takes a second for a child to be taken.

We all know of instances where you have taken your eyes of your kids when they were little and all of a sudden they are not there and have run off...is that neglect if god forbid they had been snatched ?

[WestMidsClaret]

Any "parent(s)" who leaves kids that young on their own just so they can go out and have a meal, get ****** or whatever are neglectful and cretins. Simple as that.

[houseboy]

The difference is that a key point of mine and TVC15's argument is that the McCann's have not been found guilty of any wrongdoing by either the Portuguese or British police, that's a fact not conjecture, and their investigation will have been based on more than online hearsay and rumour.

Quite so, but my earlier statement is also true, that lack of proof is no proof of innocence. Consider Al Capone and all the things he did, everyone knew he was guilty as hell, including the authorities, but all they got him for in the end was tax evasion. No-one is saying the McAnns are in the same league but the argument remains the same. The fact that the authorities in both countries have failed to come up with anything substantial means they are unable to charge them but it does not mean they are innocent.
The whole affair will drag on for years and people will have their own opinions, and that is all they will be, but until the case is solved, which is likely to be never, one argument is as valid as another.

PS: My opinion is NOT based on online 'heresay' and 'rumour', it is based on my own impressions when the story first broke and looking at the FACTS as we know them. It is also based on the behaviour of the couple themselves in the interviews after it happened. I have never seen a couple so hard and seemingly emotionless as they appeared at the time. To the best of my memory I have never read an article online with regard to this story.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Would you leave 1 year old twins and a 3 year old in a tent on their own?

I thought not

You have misquoted me. I didn't say it was right. In fact I didn't say it was right that we were left as ten year olds by school.

Was bloody good mind!

[claret59]

The film 'A cry in the Dark' led to the conviction of a Mother for the murder of her own child with public opinion swayed against the Mother because she showed a lack of emotion and refused to 'break down' in tears in front of the cameras and came across as hard and unemotional. Turned out the child had not been murdered at all and after years in prison the Mother's conviction was overturned.

As with this case a lot of rumour soon became 'fact.'

We have to ask what could be the motive in this situation other than some kind of 'cover up.' Not one of those they were spending the evening with has 'broken silence' after all these years. I dare say there would be plenty of financial motive for just one of them to go to the papers.

It is possible that the child woke up , was disorientated and went looking for her parents and got lost and died in accidental circumstances and before her body could be recovered. It was quite a while before any extensive and thorough search was made of the wider area. Several days I understand.

[fidelcastro]

It is possible that the child woke up , was disorientated and went looking for her parents and got lost and died in accidental circumstances and before her body could be recovered. It was quite a while before any extensive and thorough search was made of the wider area. Several days I understand.

No she couldn't... she was drugged up to the eyeballs.

How do I know this? The experts on here say so... that's how.

[Svenster]

It is possible that the child woke up , was disorientated and went looking for her parents and got lost and died in accidental circumstances and before her body could be recovered. It was quite a while before any extensive and thorough search was made of the wider area. Several days I understand.

Perfectly reasonable theory. Happens all the time.

So, why do the parents dismiss this possibility, along with every other one , to vehemently insist that abduction is the only possible explanation? (Despite the total absence of any evidence). So much so that they are prepared to spend huge amounts of the donated funds to silence any dissent?

[Blackrod]

Accident and parental cover up seems quite possible. A young child should not be left at all. It takes a few seconds for it to choke on something. They would have had time to think of something.

[dsr]

Accident and parental cover up seems quite possible. A young child should not be left at all. It takes a few seconds for it to choke on something. They would have had time to think of something.

I can't believe it's normal for 4 year olds to sleep in their parents' bedroom. Not be left on their own on holiday seems reasonable - never to be left alone at all, so that parents have to go to bed with the children even at home - that doesn't happen, does it?

Imagine your child. If you accidentally killed it, do you think there is any chance you could work out a foolproof plan to hide the body where it will never be found?

[Falcon]

It would be foolish to not come up with such a plan in advance just in case /joke