PPE - I wish all political angles are not on this thread

[IanMcL]

And what the blankety-blank do you think "They made a balls of it" means? It means they made a mistake, in stronger language.

Repeat...

Not a mistake. A plan not to plan, owing to cost.

[IanMcL]

Here is a link to a tweet by, probably the best investigative journalist for many a year.

https://m.facebook.com/home.php#!/hudde ... tn__=EHH-R

[AndrewJB]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-buy-ppe

[Stayingup]

Mistakes by the government in this new ground situation for them. But this crisis has shown the NFS (management not ground floor workers) and Public Health England to be worse than inept – useless. They have highly paid recruitment teams. Sending PPE abroad? Not ordering from British Companies? Something very, very wrong with some of these unaccountable Civil Servants and I suspect corruption in parts.
We can buy machines to make face masks, but even then there is no material to make them from that is made in UK, in our post-industrial state. We are dependent on China. Surely when this crisis is over – if it ever will be – then as a country we must look at building up our manufacturing. There is still some remnant of the textile industry but in commodities its been crushed with the demand for cheap products from abroad.

[RingoMcCartney]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... -fortnight

From the Guardian By Sarah Boseley

Tue 24 Mar 2020 07.08

"NHS hospitals could run out of coronavirus beds in a fortnight

Doctors say critical care places will run short if cases increase on the same scale as Italy

Coronavirus – latest updatesSee all our coronavirus coverage"


Well, guess what!? We didn't and as of yesterday, we actually have a surplus of 3000 ICU beds!

That does not include the massive extra capacity the brand new Nightingale hospitals provide.

[TVC15]

And what the blankety-blank do you think "They made a balls of it" means? It means they made a mistake, in stronger language.

It seems obvious to me that what Ian is saying is that it was a deliberate strategy / policy made by the government to not plan for a pandemic in the way I am assuming the report that Raab was squirming about yesterday recommended and in the way other countries may have planned too.
It’s hardly the biggest shock in the world that they chose not too given the 10 years of austerity and cuts in the things that were actually happening that they decide not to spend money on something that “may” happen.

Calling it a “mistake” that they didn’t do this but we are into semantics really - probably the best way to describe it was that it wasn’t an unfortunate unavoidable accident - it was a deliberate decision that they made.

[AndrewJB]

Mistakes by the government in this new ground situation for them. But this crisis has shown the NFS (management not ground floor workers) and Public Health England to be worse than inept – useless. They have highly paid recruitment teams. Sending PPE abroad? Not ordering from British Companies? Something very, very wrong with some of these unaccountable Civil Servants and I suspect corruption in parts.
We can buy machines to make face masks, but even then there is no material to make them from that is made in UK, in our post-industrial state. We are dependent on China. Surely when this crisis is over – if it ever will be – then as a country we must look at building up our manufacturing. There is still some remnant of the textile industry but in commodities its been crushed with the demand for cheap products from abroad.

The article I linked suggests the government is working hard to cover their own failings. Not joining the EU procurement plan was a disastrous move, and probably contributed toward the illnesses suffered by many of our front line staff. If it's new ground for the government, why can't they be transparent and honest? "We made a mistake with this" would go along way toward building trust, but their unwillingness to do this puts them in the same ground as repressive autocracies like China.

[DavidEyresLeftFoot]

[quote=RingoMcCartney post_id=1261318 time=1587636828 user_id=2233

Well, guess what!? We didn't and as of yesterday, we actually have a surplus of 3000 ICU beds!

That does not include the massive extra capacity the brand new Nightingale hospitals provide.
[/quote]

We really need to dispel this myth of surplus ICU beds. We are operating at four times normal capacity. A makeshift bed space in an area not normally designated for critical care, on equipment not usually used for ICU, looked after by staff not trained in critical care....DOES NOT EQUAL AN ICU BED.
It's been a monumental effort to organise, train staff and scale up our ability to respond to this crisis - driven by the dedication of clinicians in individual hospitals. It's no exaggeration to say we've been operating on a war footing. But let's not pretend that our ICU capacity hasn't been thoroughly overwhelmed.

[RingoMcCartney]

[quote=RingoMcCartney post_id=1261318 time=1587636828 user_id=2233

Well, guess what!? We didn't and as of yesterday, we actually have a surplus of 3000 ICU beds!

That does not include the massive extra capacity the brand new Nightingale hospitals provide.
[/quote]

We really need to dispel this myth of surplus ICU beds. We are operating at four times normal capacity. A makeshift bed space in an area not normally designated for critical care, on equipment not usually used for ICU, looked after by staff not trained in critical care....DOES NOT EQUAL AN ICU BED.
It's been a monumental effort to organise, train staff and scale up our ability to respond to this crisis - driven by the dedication of clinicians in individual hospitals. It's no exaggeration to say we've been operating on a war footing. But let's not pretend that our ICU capacity hasn't been thoroughly overwhelmed.

To be fair I did say the 3000 quoted yesterday did not include the extra capacity from the new Nightingale hospitals.

To go from a situation where certain newspapers were claiming we were in danger of "having no Coronavirus beds in a fortnight " to , in less than a month, a 3000 surplus given the unprecedented circumstances, is so far so good. If theres a subsequent 2nd or 3rd wave of this hideous virus, then the surplus will obviously be further tested. We shall see.

[Burnley Ace]

No. That would have leaked. There has to be a reason.

The reason could have been pandemic prep but then supply could be done, over time, by normal supply.

That’s right and then you would have been complaining that the gov are just paying their supporters to make unnecessary equipment.

Given the amount of PPE being used everyday how much should the NHS have kept stored for this pandemic?

[Burnley Ace]

Not joining the EU procurement plan was a disastrous move, and probably contributed toward the illnesses suffered by many of our front line staff.

What evidence is there to support that accusation?

[IanMcL]

That’s right and then you would have been complaining that the gov are just paying their supporters to make unnecessary equipment.

Given the amount of PPE being used everyday how much should the NHS have kept stored for this pandemic?

There would have been numbers and that would be the answer to your question.

It us the same planning scenario, used in the old days of the Civil Defence. Stocking bunkers with food then replenishing over time.

[AndrewJB]

What evidence is there to support that accusation?

That if we had more PPE, and more ventilators - fewer people would have caught it, and more people could have been treated.

[Stayingup]

That if we had more PPE, and more ventilators - fewer people would have caught it, and more people could have been treated.

They do make the fabric for PPE in Europe - Germany is one country.. We dont but then again do you recall the Italians asked Germany for help in this area? Well? The countries of the EU have gone their own way not as a united bloc. Only to be expected from such a dysfunctional system.

[Spijed]

[quote=RingoMcCartney post_id=1261318 time=1587636828 user_id=2233

Well, guess what!? We didn't and as of yesterday, we actually have a surplus of 3000 ICU beds!

That does not include the massive extra capacity the brand new Nightingale hospitals provide.

To be fair I did say the 3000 quoted yesterday did not include the extra capacity from the new Nightingale hospitals.

To go from a situation where certain newspapers were claiming we were in danger of "having no Coronavirus beds in a fortnight " to , in less than a month, a 3000 surplus given the unprecedented circumstances, is so far so good. If theres a subsequent 2nd or 3rd wave of this hideous virus, then the surplus will obviously be further tested. We shall see.
[/quote]

Germany has spare capacity as well...

[Devils_Advocate]

They do make the fabric for PPE in Europe - Germany is one country.. We dont but then again do you recall the Italians asked Germany for help in this area? Well? The countries of the EU have gone their own way not as a united bloc. Only to be expected from such a dysfunctional system.

Jim Grace@mac_puck in response to Andrew Neil's questioning of the EU Procurement Process

Try being a journalist, Andy?

Find out:
1. What actually is EU the JPA?
2. What are the advantages / disadvantages for states that take part?
3. Why did UK choose not to take part?
4. Is it working for its members?
5. If not, why not?

So

1. Health is normally an MS competence, but in global (ie cross-border) health threats the EU can have an "assistance" role which MS's can voluntarily use.
The JPA is intended to protect small purchasers of vaccines, drugs, ppe from being disadvantaged during a shortage.

Overall, the UK and the NHS in theory have huge purchasing power; shouldn't need to buddy up with small countries to buy PPE.

Unfortunately, the Tories devolved purchasing to individual NHS trusts, who are now fighting for PPE supplies like rats in a sack.

So not only did the Tory NHS reforms fragment and diminish the purchasing power of the NHS, the ideological decision in 2020 to stay out of the EU JPA shut down a solution to the their reforms had caused.

2. Advantages / disadvantages.
Advantages: It lets a load of small purchasers club together to get the same purchasing power as one big buyer; lower cost, higher priority for suppliers, reduces need for hoarding.
Disadvantages: It has "European" in the title.

3. Why did UK not take part? See "disadvantages" in previous tweet.

4. Is it working?
The first invitation to tender 28th Feb, failed due to lack of supplier interest.
The 2nd one 15th March has secured £1.5Bn of PPE which will start delivery in the next few days.

5. N/A

Now then Andy; why couldn't you do that?

And just to add participating is cost free, in the sense that it does not conflict with MS actions so we could have done everything we have been doing but had the added benefit of being part of the group

[RingoMcCartney]

To be fair I did say the 3000 quoted yesterday did not include the extra capacity from the new Nightingale hospitals.

To go from a situation where certain newspapers were claiming we were in danger of "having no Coronavirus beds in a fortnight " to , in less than a month, a 3000 surplus given the unprecedented circumstances, is so far so good. If theres a subsequent 2nd or 3rd wave of this hideous virus, then the surplus will obviously be further tested. We shall see.

Germany has spare capacity as well...
[/quote]

Good for them. The more lives are saved the better.

[Burnley Ace]

That if we had more PPE, and more ventilators - fewer people would have caught it, and more people could have been treated.

That isn’t evidence that joining the EU procurement would have made any difference. In fact, on another thread, Devils Advocate has claimed this is a long term project with a 52 week lead up so it wouldn’t have made any difference.

[Devils_Advocate]

That isn’t evidence that joining the EU procurement would have made any difference. In fact, on another thread, Devils Advocate has claimed this is a long term project with a 52 week lead up so it wouldn’t have made any difference.

Up to 52 weeks and see my post that states they have procured £1.58b of PPE equipment to make available for those in the EU scheme very soon

[tiger76]

Funny Ringo must have forgotten to post this YouGov survey.

When it comes to the supplying of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to the NHS, how much of a good or bad job do you think the Government have done?

A very good job 5%

A fairly good job 21%

A fairly bad job 32%

A very bad job 33%

Don't know 9%

2984 GB adults surveyed

These numbers are in stark contrast to the polling supporting the government only last week,could be that patience is wearing thin in the population over the PPE shortage,and bear in mind this just covers the NHS,no mention of care homes or carers.

[Burnley Ace]

Up to 52 weeks and see my post that states they have procured £1.58b of PPE equipment to make available for those in the EU scheme very soon

To be shared between 27 countries!! Very soon!