Benefit system to get a 10.1% pay increase

[taio]

As a clinical person on a ward?

That the majority of staff should go to community. It’s worse in hospitals

You are wrong. I can guarantee you that almost every health and care system across the country will be prioritising investment into community health and care. There's a high proportion of people in hospital unnecessarily because there's a lack of community infrastructure. If this was vastly improved there would be huge benefits for acute settings from a safety and quality perspective.

[Inchy]

You are wrong. I can guarantee you that almost every health and care system across the country will be prioritising investment into community health and care. There's a high proportion of people in hospital unnecessarily because there's a lack of community infrastructure. If this was vastly improved there would be huge benefits for acute settings from a safety and quality perspective.

Fair point. I see many many patients with nothing wrong with them physically, but clearly something wrong mentally, but that healthcare system has been dismantled.


What are we expecting though. The Tories have actively been making things worse for the past 10 years

[Big Vinny K]

Yes, it's incorrect to say the overall number of nurses reduced in England. They were static following the referendum and the numbers have increased following us leaving the EU.

Worded another way did the number of EU nurses and doctors leaving exceed the number of non EU nurses arriving post Brexit ? (As suggested by a number of BMA and RCN publications and articles)

Overall stagnation and latterly increases could have course been achieved by recruiting more nurses in the UK.

And would you say that the shortages in nurses overall has improved or deteriorated ? I know that this question has many layers and it’s not a simple answer but first hand I have seen that in the last 5 years especially the number of experienced nurses leaving the NHS has increased significantly and it’s not just those who have reached retirement age

[Inchy]

You are wrong. I can guarantee you that almost every health and care system across the country will be prioritising investment into community health and care. There's a high proportion of people in hospital unnecessarily because there's a lack of community infrastructure. If this was vastly improved there would be huge benefits for acute settings from a safety and quality perspective.

We can’t get patients out of hospital into nursing homes because nursing homes won’t take covid positive patients. We can’t force them because they are all private and can refuse whoever they want. Whose idea was it to privatise nursing homes?

[taio]

Worded another way did the number of EU nurses and doctors leaving exceed the number of non EU nurses arriving post Brexit ? (As suggested by a number of BMA and RCN publications and articles)

Overall stagnation and latterly increases could have course been achieved by recruiting more nurses in the UK.

And would you say that the shortages in nurses overall has improved or deteriorated ? I know that this question has many layers and it’s not a simple answer but first hand I have seen that in the last 5 years especially the number of experienced nurses leaving the NHS has increased significantly and it’s not just those who have reached retirement age

I'm not disputing that that the number of EU nurses has decreased. I'm just reflecting that overall nursing numbers have increased since 2016. On your last point I agree there are many nuances.

[Big Vinny K]

You are wrong. I can guarantee you that almost every health and care system across the country will be prioritising investment into community health and care. There's a high proportion of people in hospital unnecessarily because there's a lack of community infrastructure. If this was vastly improved there would be huge benefits for acute settings from a safety and quality perspective.

I 100% agree with this and was amazed at what I have seen and found out through very unfortunate circumstances in the last few months.
It’s an absolute national disgrace what is happening in hospitals and how they have become a catch all facility for almost every facet of society and on the back of 12 years of austerity and cutting back every single kind of support service.

[Nori1958]

We can’t get patients out of hospital into nursing homes because nursing homes won’t take covid positive patients. We can’t force them because they are all private and can refuse whoever they want. Whose idea was it to privatise nursing homes?

Are you suggesting covid patients go to care homes? Was that not the main cause of many deaths?

[Inchy]

Worded another way did the number of EU nurses and doctors leaving exceed the number of non EU nurses arriving post Brexit ? (As suggested by a number of BMA and RCN publications and articles)

Overall stagnation and latterly increases could have course been achieved by recruiting more nurses in the UK.

And would you say that the shortages in nurses overall has improved or deteriorated ? I know that this question has many layers and it’s not a simple answer but first hand I have seen that in the last 5 years especially the number of experienced nurses leaving the NHS has increased significantly and it’s not just those who have reached retirement age

What the NHS has done is go over to India and rob them
of nurses. Now these nurses are nowhere near the quality and standard of British, or Filipino, or EU nurses. That’s a massive generalisation I admit but ask any nurse who works on the wards. Healthcare in this country is culturally poles apart from some other countries, like India. Things will get better but you cant just plant an Indian nurse in England and expect them to be amazing, or even safe, just like you couldn’t plop me in deli and expect me to be useful

[Quickenthetempo]

We can’t get patients out of hospital into nursing homes because nursing homes won’t take covid positive patients. We can’t force them because they are all private and can refuse whoever they want. Whose idea was it to privatise nursing homes?

Are you suggesting getting Covid patients out of hospitals?
Is that you Mat Hancock?

[taio]

We can’t get patients out of hospital into nursing homes because nursing homes won’t take covid positive patients. We can’t force them because they are all private and can refuse whoever they want. Whose idea was it to privatise nursing homes?

It's a good example of why there needs to be and will be investment into community health and care services to benefit patients and take pressure off hospitals. Take University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay, for example, a quarter of their general and acute beds are occupied by people who are medically fit for discharge through no fault of the trust. I'm surprised you can't see the need for community investment to allevaite acute pressures.

[Inchy]

Are you suggesting getting Covid patients out of hospitals?
Is that you Mat Hancock?

This isn’t covid 19 this is covid 22

[Inchy]

It's a good example of why there needs to be and will be investment into community health and care services to benefit patients and take pressure off hospitals. Take University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay, for example, a quarter of their general and acute beds are occupied by people who are medically fit for discharge through no fault of the trust. I'm surprised you can't see the need for community investment to allevaite acute pressures.

Oh no I can, but take away 25 percent of patients from the wards (particularly the medically fit ones) and the wards still wouldn’t be safe imo

[taio]

Are you suggesting covid patients go to care homes? Was that not the main cause of many deaths?

I can assure you it's far easier to cohort in a care home than a hospital.

[Taffy on the wing]

Benefits up for the vulnerable in line with inflation, minimum wage nearly as much for the low paid, most likely to be paid for by tax rises on the wealthy. Basically the opposite of Trusseconomics. Not sure there’s much to complain about or that anyone can say Sunak hasn’t built a track record of doing the right thing given this, furlough, energy support, etc.

Personally think we’ll suffer a longer and deeper recession as a result but that’s a price worth paying.

Giving money to the poorest is the best way to stimulate the Economy........they spend every penny.
Trickle up Economics ....if you like.

[taio]

Oh no I can, but take away 25 percent of patients from the wards (particularly the medically fit ones) and the wards still wouldn’t be safe imo

I don't believe that. But if I'm wrong the wards would at least be much safer. That's indisputable and there's rich evidence about the quality and safety benefits of optimal hospital occupancy.

[Jakubclaret]

Giving money to the poorest is the best way to stimulate the Economy........they spend every penny.
Trickle up Economics ....if you like.

They do spend every penny but not necessarily on items which are taxable unless we start to legalise drugs.

[Big Vinny K]

They do spend every penny but not necessarily on items which are taxable unless we start to legalise drugs.

You are toxic.

[Jakubclaret]

You are toxic.

But true.

[Inchy]

I don't believe that. But if I'm wrong the wards would at least be much safer. That's indisputable and there's rich evidence about the quality and safety benefits of optimal hospital occupancy.

If my dad was on a ward with 25 percent less patients I still
Wouldn’t be convinced of his safety, although as you say it would be safer.

[Inchy]

They do spend every penny but not necessarily on items which are taxable unless we start to legalise drugs.

Yeah but drug dealers spend the money on flash cars and big spoilers so it all gets taxed at some point

[Jakubclaret]

Yeah but drug dealers spend the money on flash cars and big spoilers so it all gets taxed at some point

That's partly true the 1s that are at the top of the food chain & aren't feeding a habit themselves. What comes around goes around in a peculiar way.

[taio]

If my dad was on a ward with 25 percent less patients I still
Wouldn’t be convinced of his safety, although as you say it would be safer.

It's sad to hear that's how you feel based on the experience of your trust. But you more than most must be a supporter of appropriate staff to patient ratios as an ICU nurse and awareness of GPIC standards. If you really feel this way then surely you would support investment in community healthcare to prevent as many acute admissions as possible if you don't feel hospitals are or can become safe places?

[Inchy]

That's partly true the 1s that are at the top of the food chain & aren't feeding a habit themselves. What comes around goes around in a peculiar way.

Yeah but they will be getting their gear from
Scouse Mike, not Colombian Dave, so the money will swill around and get taxed a bit. No one in the cartel wants pound notes

[Inchy]

It's sad to hear that's how you feel based on the experience of your trust. But you more than most must be a supporter of appropriate staff to patient ratios as an ICU nurse and awareness of GPIC standards. If you really feel this way then surely you would support investment in community healthcare to prevent as many acute admissions as possible if you don't feel hospitals are or can become safe places?

I
I do support investment in community healthcare investment. I just feel the standard of healthcare would still be below par with 25 percent less patients

[Stockbrokerbelt]

Why are the individuals who claim benefits demonised yet rich tax evaders have not had a mention?

[Inchy]

What’s your role within the nhs taio?

[taio]

What’s your role within the nhs taio?

Deputy chief operating officer at a NHS Trust.

[Big Vinny K]

But true.

Nope - just simply a bigot with an extremely low intellect.
The only blessing (for us) is that it sounds like you are restricted from actually being involved in the real world and the rest of society.
Every cloud.

[Jakubclaret]

Nope - just simply a bigot with an extremely low intellect.
The only blessing (for us) is that it sounds like you are restricted from actually being involved in the real world and the rest of society.
Every cloud.

Bore off.

[Nori1958]

Deputy chief operating officer at a NHS Trust.

He hoped you'd say something else

[Inchy]

He hoped you'd say something else

No to be fair that’s exactly what I expected.

[Nori1958]

No to be fair that’s exactly what I expected.

I really admired your work, and information during covid, but still don't understand your rush to get covid patients into care homes

[Inchy]

I really admired your work, and information during covid, but still don't understand your rush to get covid patients into care homes

These are not sick covid patients Nori, these are patients who often live in care homes, fall over and break their hip, come to hospital and have it fixed, and then can’t go back to their care home (home) because they incidentally have covid. They are not sick with covid, and could better isolate at home. But the care homes are private so can just say no

[Nori1958]

These are not sick covid patients Nori, these are patients who often live in care homes, fall over and break their hip, come to hospital and have it fixed, and then can’t go back to their care home (home) because they incidentally have covid. They are not sick with covid, and could better isolate at home. But the care homes are private so can just say no

And those who were returned untested were not ill covid patients, but look how well that went

[Inchy]

I really admired your work, and information during covid, but still don't understand your rush to get covid patients into care homes

A better example is you need a few stents doing on your heart, it’s urgent as in you might drop dead at any point but it’s still elective.

Your Al surgery gets cancelled because the ICU bed you need post op is still occupied by someone who is waiting to step down to the ward, but they can’t step down to the ward because there is no ward bed because Frank has tested positively for covid. He’s asymptomatic but his nursing home won’t have him back for 10 days.

Meanwhile you have a time bomb in your chest

[Inchy]

And those who were returned untested were not ill covid patients, but look how well that went

Covid now is different to covid in 2020. If you cannot recognise that then it’s pointless even trying to explain the issues

[Brucefanclaret]

We can’t get patients out of hospital into nursing homes because nursing homes won’t take covid positive patients. We can’t force them because they are all private and can refuse whoever they want. Whose idea was it to privatise nursing homes?

Discharging Covid positive patients into Care Homes is not the answer - impossible to keep patients isolated, given the levels of dementia in Homes, apart from space constraints etc.
But who had the idea of privatising them? Margaret Thatcher.

[dsr]

Or put it the other way round; some jobs simply don't pay enough to live on - minimum wage needs raising dramatically.

Zero hour/casual contracts need binning too - having full time hours one week and ten hours the next week is pure exploitation. How can anyone be expected to live or budget like that? They're also usually the type of jobs offered by companies already dodging vast amounts of taxation on their even vaster profits via creative accounting - they're taking the **** at both ends of the spectrum.

Both low wages and zero hour contracts mean the taxpayer has to pick up the tab to bridge the gap when it's not enough. It wouldn't be necessary to pay in-work benefits at all if jobs paid fairly and were secure. In work benefits are essentially welfare for business. Why aren't you and the original poster of this thread mad about that instead?

How on earth do you think football clubs can manage without zero hours contracts? Do you honestly believe they should pay the casual workers for two matches per week, all through the season? Because that's what it would amount to. If you can't employ casual workers, which is what zero hours contracts are, then costs of certain businesses will rise astronomically.

How about the hospitality industry? When they have a wedding on, they bring in the zero hours contract staff. Abolish that, and only the largest venues will be able to survive.

[fatboy47]

They do spend every penny but not necessarily on items which are taxable unless we start to legalise drugs.

Do you honestly not understand what an obnoxious, bigoted thing that is to say?

I really do hope that you're just on a bit of a wind-up, because if not I feel sorry for you.

[Jakubclaret]

Do you honestly not understand what an obnoxious, bigoted thing that is to say?

I really do hope that you're just on a bit of a wind-up, because if not I feel sorry for you.

So some poor people on benefits don't spend their money on drugs then? Not all will but some will & that money will not all go back to the treasury through taxation but as inchy correctly stated some will go back into circulation by the top drug dealers spunkiing money on flash motors & other items which will be taxed. It's not a bigoted thing to say it's a partially factual thing to say!

[Nori1958]

Covid now is different to covid in 2020. If you cannot recognise that then it’s pointless even trying to explain the issues

Wow..

[Inchy]

It’s true. People are not dying of covid like they were back in 2020.

Loads of people are still testing positive but intensive cares are not flood with covid patients. Most people are testing positive on admission because they have to be teated, but they are totally asymptomatic

Wow indeed, it’s good news

[JohnMcGreal]

It's a misleading thread title, probably deliberately.

Inflation is currently running at 9.6% so in real terms the increase to benefits would be 0.5%. I know that doesn't get people frothing, but it's accurate and is hardly the massively generous handout some people are making out.

Meanwhile it's frequently reported that nurses have received a 4% pay increase, but in real terms this amounts to a 5.6% pay cut. And people wonder why they're voting for industrial action.

[Lancasterclaret]

Inflation now 11.1%

Jumped a whole percent in a month

[Gaia]

That's a lazy generalisation about unemployed people being on drugs. Jobseekers of £80 a week isn't going to go very far eg with price of weed or coke.

[Nori1958]

It’s true. People are not dying of covid like they were back in 2020.

Loads of people are still testing positive but intensive cares are not flood with covid patients. Most people are testing positive on admission because they have to be teated, but they are totally asymptomatic

Wow indeed, it’s good news

It's true, covid has little impact on the vast majority

However..... The highest death rate for covid is in the over 85s
The highest rate of hospitalizations is in the over 85s

So it's quite clear which age group requires protecting, both for their health, and to lessen the strain on the NHS

To put a covid positive person into the confined space of a care home is pure madness, and well done to the care homes for refusing to allow it.

[Jakubclaret]

That's a lazy generalisation about unemployed people being on drugs. Jobseekers of £80 a week isn't going to go very far eg with price of weed or coke.

If you get a Oz of green I'm pretty sure you can knock a few bags out & have some free for yourself. I'm not against the unemployed being on drugs life must get very boring without anything to occupy ones time but let's not pretend People are indoors watching Mary Poppins dvds & listening to carpenter CDs. People manage it however it's done by hook or crook it's done.

[Inchy]

It's true, covid has little impact on the vast majority

However..... The highest death rate for covid is in the over 85s
The highest rate of hospitalizations is in the over 85s

So it's quite clear which age group requires protecting, both for their health, and to lessen the strain on the NHS

To put a covid positive person into the confined space of a care home is pure madness, and well done to the care homes for refusing to allow it.

Correct but that number is still tiny compared to 2020. The vast majority of over 85s testing positive are not symptomatic. Keeping well covid patients in hospital surrounded by unwell, immunocompromised people also isn’t the answer.
It’s far easier to isolate someone in a nursing home, for a start all nursing home residents have they’re own room. A hospital has a limited amount of side rooms. A way round that is cohorting all covid patients on one ward. But then you have about 10 specialities on one ward which isn’t ideal. Having a liver patient in a different building half a mile across site from the nearest hepatologist isn’t ideal.

Life saving operations up and down the country are being cancelled on a daily basis.

[Hipper]

You're comparing apples and oranges. I've said where the figures came from.

I got them from a Spectator article and the Spectator got them from the ONS.

Rowls, I had no argument with you or your sources.

The first Guardian link confirmed what you said.

I am intrigued by the facts that there were '400,000 long term sick in the last year' and '2 million Long Term Covid' since Covid began in 2020'.

Not quite apples and oranges as Long Term Covid must impact on 'Long Term Sick' I would have thought.

[Nori1958]

Correct but that number is still tiny compared to 2020. The vast majority of over 85s testing positive are not symptomatic. Keeping well covid patients in hospital surrounded by unwell, immunocompromised people also isn’t the answer.
It’s far easier to isolate someone in a nursing home, for a start all nursing home residents have they’re own room. A hospital has a limited amount of side rooms. A way round that is cohorting all covid patients on one ward. But then you have about 10 specialities on one ward which isn’t ideal. Having a liver patient in a different building half a mile across site from the nearest hepatologist isn’t ideal.

Life saving operations up and down the country are being cancelled on a daily basis.

Have we now moved on to nursing homes, as opposed to care homes? Two different kinds of establishment.

Operations have always been cancelled... There were log jams of elderly people waiting to be discharged long before covid, due to assessments having to be done, both medical and financial.