Sam Morsy

[sleeperclaret]

With reciprocal respect I was talking about the beliefs held by billions of people over the age of 5 !!

In all seriousness to use an example of something that nobody believes in comparison to something like religion is just a bit daft…..especially with the tone of that specific comment.

Imagine that instead of Santa bringing presents, he brought snow. If it didn't snow, you had been bad, or sometimes just because Santa works in mysterious ways. And then imagine that nobody ever told you it wasn't true and it's a story that's been around for hundreds of years. How many adults today would still believe in Santa?

[elwaclaret]

I find it utterly bizarre that it tends to be the champions of ‘liberation’ are the one’s who attack religions and remembrance.

While religion is abused by the minority it is known to help the mental health of the many millions who adopt it for their moral compass to navigate through their lives and support their emotional struggles.

These seem ‘libertarians’ tend to be the same people who oppose the act of remembering those who gave their life’s to protect the future generations liberty.

Why not practice what you preach… each to their own rather than try to belittle others?

[RMutt]

It certainly is a moral quandary. It seems almost impossible to defend the right of one individual without attacking the rights others.
Whilst taking in elwaclaret’s point above, one thing I would say about religious standpoints is that they often take logic out of the equation when arguing a position and that makes coming to a consensus almost impossible. There are more of enough very serious examples of that in the world right now.

[Walton]

With reciprocal respect I was talking about the beliefs held by billions of people over the age of 5 !!

In all seriousness to use an example of something that nobody believes in comparison to something like religion is just a bit daft…..especially with the tone of that specific comment.

Yes you're right, the penny drops for children that their favourite made up character isn't real around about primary school age.

What does that say about fully grown adults who still believe in their favourite made up character?

[dsr]

Imagine that instead of Santa bringing presents, he brought snow. If it didn't snow, you had been bad, or sometimes just because Santa works in mysterious ways. And then imagine that nobody ever told you it wasn't true and it's a story that's been around for hundreds of years. How many adults today would still believe in Santa?

Santa Claus is a made up story told by people who don't believe it themselves. Jesus was a real person and he was written about by people who knew him, or who knew his friends, and they did believe it to be true.

[sleeperclaret]

For what it's worth, my above question was genuine and I was honestly not trying to belittle anyone's personal beliefs. Iunderstand if it may have come across that way and if it did, I apologise. Urban legends are another example - I find it fascinating that some people believe one thing and not others. Those who switch religion are particularly curious to me - I don't understand how that happens or why, but I'm genuinely interested in hearing about people's experiences in that.

I believe in fairness and equality and everyone should be able to do our not do what they wish without fear of being abused or ridiculed as long as it doesn't impact others. In my view, a public expression against a marginalised group is not fair because it seeks to suggest they're not worthy of recognition or support. A number of people on this thread have said similar. Regardless of the reason, whatever the religious argument, it boils down to homophobia, be it institutionalized or personal. And that in this day and age or any gone before it, simply isn't acceptable.

Society is always more important than the individual, so where there are differences, the societal benefit should be prioritised over individual freedoms. So you don't have the right to be a racist, a homophobe, an Islamophobe, an anti-semite, or anything similar. Society is bigger than you or your opinions. That, I believe, is the founding principle for most religions.

[sleeperclaret]

Santa Claus is a made up story told by people who don't believe it themselves. Jesus was a real person and he was written about by people who knew him, or who knew his friends, and they did believe it to be true.

Santa Claus was based on Saint Nicholas, a 3rd/4th century Greek bishop. There were some fairly obvious embellishments in the story over time.

[TheFamilyCat]

Santa Claus is a made up story told by people who don't believe it themselves. Jesus was a real person and he was written about by people who knew him, or who knew his friends, and they did believe it to be true.

Jesus may well have been a real person but a lot of what is written about him is ********. Maybe all of it is.

[Darnhill Claret]

Educated men who could read and write, took it upon themselves to establish a world order, a community that could flourish.
In order to 'sell' their thoughts of how people should behave, in everyone's best interests they came up with The Ten Commandments. They then had to construct a story that allowed for the introduction of said Commandments. What better way than to link it to a fabled story of the man known as Jesus of Nazereth, perhaps similar in our time to the 'story' of Nostradamus.
We know that The Bible is a collection of stories over many, many years, with many authors.
Proof if you need it, that conspiracy theories have been around for ages.

I forget whether The Old Testament was written before The New Testament but I'm fully aware of how they connect in The Bible.

Miracles, they are the bedrock of belief systems.
Thoughts on magic?
Thoughts on Chinese Whispers?
Thoughts on whether or not witnesses who could write, would have been present at every miracle!!
Thoughts on the story of how The Ten Commandments came to be?

Finally, thoughts on how science explains how earth came to be, weighed against God creating earth and the fable of Adam and Eve and all the questions that throws up, and who were the educated witnesses to Adam and Eve who recorded these 'facts'.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

No, you're stating your opinion. Yes, you are so confident in your opinion that you refuse to accept there is any possibility that you are wrong, but nonetheless it is opinion.

You said yourself the existence of God can't be proved. That does not mean He doesn't exist. Anyway, the existence of Jesus can be proved and we can use His words as our guide whether or not. (Incidentally, the few words he said about sex were not particularly hard line. He confirmed that adultery was a sin, but didn't condone punishment for it.)

I'm stating facts

Gods were initially created by humans to explain away natural phenomenon, like earthquakes, storms etc
Then they were used by humans to instill fear and to make money from, hence why they made heaven (the carrot for obedience) and hell (the stick for disobedience)

Gods can't be proven, same with the afterlife, yet religions demand we believe or face punishment

We're born atheists, the indoctrination begins as you grow up and the religion you follow as a child depends entirely on the area you're raised in and your parents beliefs
That's why there are so many different religions

Christianity can't even get its ducks in a row, 45k diff sects and 30 diff bibles, no 2 of which are identical in what they say
Yet they want us to take them seriously....
Islam also has the same problem with different sects etc


Jesus - his existence has never been proven, anything written about him was done decades after he allegedly lived, odd don't you think when it's claimed he walked on water, performed miracles and rose from the dead
Must be sheer coincidence that most of the big claims about him were done by others before him and they're also mere fables
He was a literary creation, like moses before him and probably like Muhammad after him

If the Romans hadn't adopted Christianity, it would've faded away like other minor religions at the time have

[AlargeClaret]

I forget whether The Old Testament was written before The New Testament but I'm fully aware of how they connect in The Bible.

Jesus wept ! ( pun intended ) Seriously if your gonna pontificate on theologically debatable points , at least have the self respect to have the merest basic understanding of your subject matter . Your statement is akin to saying “ I’m not sure if football or rugby are played with an oval ball “ while attempting to write a serious piece on football .

[Darnhill Claret]

It's a long time since I did any theological study. I'm not pontificating. I just thought that GodisADjay, (see what I did there) or someone else with similar views to myself would confirm one way or the other, about the fact that the writing of the Bible wasn't necessarily in the order written, Mr Preview.

[Darnhill Claret]

Also AlargeClaret, if you are a believer, I'm not that convinced that you necessarily 'have the merest basic understanding of the/your subject matter'.
I also don't wish to state an opinion as fact.

[dsr]

It's a long time since I did any theological study. I'm not pontificating. I just thought that GodisADjay, (see what I did there) or someone else with similar views to myself would confirm one way or the other, about the fact that the writing of the Bible wasn't necessarily in the order written, Mr Preview.

I don't see how you can be "fully aware" of how the Old and the New Testament connect, if you aren't aware which was written first.

But for example, Jesus reading from the book of Isaiah in the synagogue - can you honestly claim to have a full understanding of how they link, if you don't know whether the book of Isaiah existed at the time?

For future reference, the Old Testament was all written in BC - Before Christ. The Dead Sea Scrolls have been found dating back to about that time and comparison has shown that the text we have now accurately reflects the text they had then.

In the New Testament, the oldest writings are probably Paul's letters to various churches around the Mediterranean, which were written after Jesus' death but before Paul's death (obviously!) which was in about 65 AD. The four Gospels were written down later, Mark's probably being the first, again in the 60's AD.

[Darnhill Claret]

A question of interpretation I think.
I know that The Bible begins with the Old Testament, with many stories etc, from the beginning of time, (Adam), through to the birth of Adam (if later)(contested) and numerous historical events passed down by word of mouth and recorded up to 100 years after the event(s). BC

The New Testament continues religious history from the birth of Christ, AD (the connection) in Books and Letters.
So of course I know the overall chronology of The Bible, but many theological experts still Challenge the authenticity of events within The Bible. This would include the 7 days of creating earth, the ages of major players, especially when fathering children or indeed giving birth. The Book of Kings, etc, etc.

[Darnhill Claret]

Anyway, I just wanted to add to GodisADeeJay's posts and didn't think I would have to go any deeper than that.
This will be my final post on this thread. I am choosing to escape while I still can. I always knew how contentious the subject of religion could become.

GodisADeeJay, you got off lightly mate.

[Big Vinny K]

Aye best leave it.
Religion is never going to be an area that you get people to agree and there are few things in life where views can be so diverse.

Not being sure on which came first between the Old and New Testament is a new one for me though !! The clue really is in the name….

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Got off lightly?
OK

As for the gospels, they were written by unknown authors across many decades and falsely attributed to those named people

Religion is a sham and has been allowed to influence people to think poorly of gay people

[TheFamilyCat]

Aye best leave it.
Religion is never going to be an area that you get people to agree and there are few things in life where views can be so diverse.

Not being sure on which came first between the Old and New Testament is a new one for me though !! The clue really is in the name….

Not really. Christianity started with Jesus, so who was writing about it before then?

[Darnhill Claret]

First of all my apologies to anyone who read this thread. I shouldn't post at 3am and if I do I should reread before posting.
‐‐----------------‐-----------------------------

Chinese whispers might just be a possibility, if writers somewhere between 1000 BC and 500 BC write about things that happened supposedly 3000 years earlier.

Again, I'm sorry that I wrote something so completely wrong for others to read and it was right that people pulled me for it.
I have no idea why I didn't realise exactly what I had written. No excuses.

[nil_desperandum]

Not really. Christianity started with Jesus, so who was writing about it before then?

Not really sure what you mean here, but obviously the various corroborated reports that record the life and teachings of Jesus Christ were written shortly after his lifetime. But there are a good number of predictions of the “coming of Christ”, “the Messiah” in the Old Testament, notably by the prophet Isaiah.
So whilst much of the OT is a chronicle of the previous centuries there are significant passages that predict- in some detail- the coming and teachings of Christ, even though written centuries earlier.
This is particularly topical during this season of Advent as we prepare for Christmas