Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[AndrewJB]

Does anyone think that May's withdrawal agreement might get passed by parliament if it was brought for the fourth time?

Ok I agree that we COULD be trapped in the EU's CU and SM indefinitely BUT we might have an excellent free trade deal negotiated in a couple of years which would MINIMISE trade barriers between the EU and the UK.

This option might be Johnson's last throw of the dice on the 19th October (decision day).

That sounds like the few minutes before the lights come back on at a bar, and horny people drop their standards in the last desperate attempt to find a sex partner to go home with.

After everything we’ve been through so far, does anyone actually believe we’re going to get an “excellent” trade deal with the EU? Not with the Tories in charge anyway.

[dsr]

It’s entirely dishonest. The PM is being told to address his failure to reach agreement, by extending A50. I say his failure because we’ve known for years what the EU position is, and that the terms he’s looking for simply don’t exist. The most sensible way forward would be to negotiate a withdrawal agreement that keeps the U.K. in a customs union (which we could leave further in the future when real technology allows us to), and he’d get the support he needs to pass it through Parliament, EU agreement, not screw up the GFA, and actually get it done. Where he is right now is going precisely nowhere, and won’t go anywhere, because it doesn’t have the support, and the EU won’t move either. When a solution is staring you in the face you have to be particularly stupid to continue trying what doesn’t work.

Quite apart from the strange idea that Boris should negotiate a withdrawal agreement when we know what the EU position is and what its terms are ...

The technology already exists and is put into practice for two countries with a land border, one in the Customs Union and the other out of it. Norway is not in the Customs Union, and many of their crossing points into Sweden (soon to be all but one of them) are controlled by cameras, not a border post.

[elwaclaret]

Anyone who has a problem with Bercow’s behaviour, without being appalled at Johnson’s has zero balance.

See that is where we differ. ‘Sources’ within Downing Street to me does not equate to Boris Johnson. The Tory party has been leaking like a sieve since Thatcher. Unnamed sources from Downing Street are creating smoke, that remain can dance through leaving them to get on with the real business behind the scenes. It disappears as quickly as it appears like all hot air, in the meantime remain stay away from issues that could play well domestically as we head towards an election. Instead they watch the ‘united’ parliament unable to even agree who should lead them, because each one recognises the other is not fit for purpose. Corbyn is trying desperately to divert attention from his own party, because Had Parliament not been recalled civil war would have broken out at the Labour Party conference. As for the Liberal one trick pony outfit...

If Corbin was honest to his views and beliefs I’d be voting Labour myself... but his party is a hornets nest in waiting and is in no way ready to govern.

[AndrewJB]

Quite apart from the strange idea that Boris should negotiate a withdrawal agreement when we know what the EU position is and what its terms are ...

The technology already exists and is put into practice for two countries with a land border, one in the Customs Union and the other out of it. Norway is not in the Customs Union, and many of their crossing points into Sweden (soon to be all but one of them) are controlled by cameras, not a border post.

If Johnson told them we’d like to stay in the customs union, he’d be able to negotiate a better WA. And if the technology exists, what’s the problem?

[summitclaret]

Does anyone think that May's withdrawal agreement might get passed by parliament if it was brought for the fourth time?

Ok I agree that we COULD be trapped in the EU's CU and SM indefinitely BUT we might have an excellent free trade deal negotiated in a couple of years which would MINIMISE trade barriers between the EU and the UK.

This option might be Johnson's last throw of the dice on the 19th October (decision day).

There won't be any ftd that we would want whilst the EU have us by the balls via a trapstop. Look how they have behaved this week.

[dsr]

There won't be any ftd that we would want whilst the EU have us by the balls via a trapstop. Look how they have behaved this week.

Exactly.

I can sort of understand after the last three years why people would stay in the EU out of fear of the consequences. But why they would be in favour of it as a friendly and nice institution, I don't understand.

[Mala591]

There won't be any ftd that we would want whilst the EU have us by the balls via a trapstop. Look how they have behaved this week.

On the other hand the EU and the UK are sick to death of the Brexit 'problem' and a free trade deal might be agreed surprisingly quickly.

[elwaclaret]

On the other hand the EU and the UK are sick to death of the Brexit 'problem' and a free trade deal might be agreed surprisingly quickly.

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Not saying there won’t be an extension, but I think the EU are waking up to the point that for all the manoeuvres of Parliament, this is possibly the EU’s biggest chance to get this done smoothly.

If the Conservatives do win the next election the EU will not have the power in negotiations they currently enjoy. It only makes sense for them to get something sorted quickly ; or they really are gambling with events beyond their control.

[Lancasterclaret]

I can't stay away can I?

I again have to ask where the Brexiteers on here are getting their info from that suggest an FTA will be done "just like that" in the event of a "No Deal"?

I'll put it very simply if it helps.

Whoever is telling you this stuff does not know what they are talking about.

[martin_p]

Boris Johnson and Leo Varadkar are currently meeting less than ten minutes away from my house. Reckon I’ll pop down, show Leo dsr’s post, and Brexit will be sorted before the day is out!

[nil_desperandum]

If the Conservatives do win the next election the EU will not have the power in negotiations they currently enjoy.

Irrespective of who wins an election and who is PM, how does that change the EU's position? We've already had 3 PMs and goodness knows who many brexit secretaries since the referendum.
The EU have been totally consistent and unified in their position. They will continue to be so, but of course that doesn't mean that they won't consider a new deal with a new PM, so long as it doesn't break any international treaties and so long as it doesn't threaten the integrity of the Single Market, or breach any of their core principles.

[dsr]

On the other hand the EU and the UK are sick to death of the Brexit 'problem' and a free trade deal might be agreed surprisingly quickly.

It won't, because the EU doesn't want it badly enough. The EU would like a free trade deal, but only if they get paid loads of money and if the deal is bound up with all sorts of caveats and conditions. As Lancaster has frequently pointed out, they are trying to make sure that being outside the EU isn't as good as (or is worse than) being in it.

If the UK was trying to negotiate a free trade deal with the USA and it depended on paying a huge annual fee and the USA having overriding say over what happens in part of the country, the deal would be rejected out of hand. This EU deal or proposed deal is playing by different rules. Some think the price is worth paying, others don't.

But ultimately, the EU wants a lot more than the any of the political parties (not just the Tories) in the UK are willing to pay. It's unlikely that they will demand less after Brexit, if only because they are politicians and won't want to appear to lose face.

[elwaclaret]

Irrespective of who wins an election and who is PM, how does that change the EU's position? We've already had 3 PMs and goodness knows who many brexit secretaries since the referendum.
The EU have been totally consistent and unified in their position. They will continue to be so, but of course that doesn't mean that they won't consider a new deal with a new PM, so long as it doesn't break any international treaties and so long as it doesn't threaten the integrity of the Single Market, or breach any of their core principles.

Not arguing against your point. But the potential for a Conservative Government with a mandate is a very real possibility.... the EU loses a lot of its bargaining power.... I expect some sort of virtual free trade deal is less blind betting than further “let’s wait and see”... Brexit is hurting all Europe, more due to constant uncertainty than Brexit itself. They HAVE to make it stop... and a deal is the path of least resistance, surely?

[martin_p]

Quite apart from the strange idea that Boris should negotiate a withdrawal agreement when we know what the EU position is and what its terms are ...

The technology already exists and is put into practice for two countries with a land border, one in the Customs Union and the other out of it. Norway is not in the Customs Union, and many of their crossing points into Sweden (soon to be all but one of them) are controlled by cameras, not a border post.

Norway is also part of the Schengen area and allows freedom of movement between itself and the EU. It follows approximately 20% of EU laws. It is also part of the EEA which allows free movement of goods. By the estimation of many on here Norway must only be not in the EU ‘in name alone’.

Comparing the Norway - Sweden border to the one we’ll have with Ireland doesn’t really work unless we’re going to be part of these things as well.

[Lancasterclaret]

Good news all

Andrea Ledsom has sent us all 11 videos in which she demonstrates how red tape is being cut by us leaving the EU......oh hang on a sec, thats not what they do at all.

Apologies, these are 11 videos which the government have produced that show how much MORE red tape is being created by leaving the EU

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/statu ... 9467053056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mala591]

Just to get back to the original question. Do you think May's withdrawal agreement would be passed if it was brought before parliament for a fourth time?

After all 'everybody is sick of Brexit'.

[Devils_Advocate]

Boris Johnson and Leo Varadkar are currently meeting less than ten minutes away from my house. Reckon I’ll pop down, show Leo DDR’s post, and Brexit will be sorted before the day is out!

Keep a lookout for Crosspools as he seems to pop up at a lot of these key meetings and get personal insight from the key players

[dsr]

Norway is also part of the Schengen area and allows freedom of movement between itself and the EU. It follows approximately 20% of EU laws. It is also part of the EEA which allows free movement of goods. By the estimation of many on here Norway must only be not in the EU ‘in name alone’.

Comparing the Norway - Sweden border to the one we’ll have with Ireland doesn’t really work unless we’re going to be part of these things as well.

It's not a direct comparison, but it shows what can be done and specifically that there are other ways of regulating goods movements than physical border posts.

I certainly wouldn't want to be "out like Norway". Norway voted twice to stay out, so the politicians made a deal that got them as In as possible without officially being In. But then, it's such a rich country that they don't need free trade or other fripperies anyway.

[keith1879]

Not arguing against your point. But the potential for a Conservative Government with a mandate is a very real possibility.... the EU loses a lot of its bargaining power.... I expect some sort of virtual free trade deal is less blind betting than further “let’s wait and see”... Brexit is hurting all Europe, more due to constant uncertainty than Brexit itself. They HAVE to make it stop... and a deal is the path of least resistance, surely?

We could have god almighty as Prime Minister and it wouldn't change the EU's bargaining power. Or we could have a half dead caterpillar ....it wouldn't change the EU's bargaining power. It wouldn't change ours either....but it would change our ability to utilise that power. Until we get a Prime Minister who puts the good of the country ahead of the unity of the Tory party we won't get anywhere.

[keith1879]

It's not a direct comparison, but it shows what can be done and specifically that there are other ways of regulating goods movements than physical border posts.

I certainly wouldn't want to be "out like Norway". Norway voted twice to stay out, so the politicians made a deal that got them as In as possible without officially being In. But then, it's such a rich country that they don't need free trade or other fripperies anyway.

Any system must pass the test of proving that there is nothing in the lorry that doesn't appear on the paperwork. This will always need a physical check somewhere.

[RingoMcCartney]

""Well in my opinion, dear colleagues the real traitor is he or she who risks bringing disaster upon his country, its economy, and its citizens, by pushing Britain out of the European Union. That is in my opinion, a traitor."

Guy Verhofstadt referring to Boris.

It illustrates perfectly the mindset of these, evangelical EU nationalist , extremist, bureaucrats in Brussels have.

"Pushing Britain out of the European Union". He wants to ignore the fact that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (which the EU now clearly want to economically anex) voted in a free and democratic referendum and chose to leave his beloved democracy despising organisation.

His point blank refusal and clear angry bewilderment that the British People don't want to be part of his project . Has obviously dialled up his personal hysteria levels , to new highs.

Rather than accepting and respecting a nations right to self determination, and regain the position of being an independent, self governing country. He thrashes around like a semi demented fraggle, at Boris , simply because Johnson is attempting to enact The Will of The People.

[elwaclaret]

We could have god almighty as Prime Minister and it wouldn't change the EU's bargaining power. Or we could have a half dead caterpillar ....it wouldn't change the EU's bargaining power. It wouldn't change ours either....but it would change our ability to utilise that power. Until we get a Prime Minister who puts the good of the country ahead of the unity of the Tory party we won't get anywhere.

Are they not? Or is that your opinion.... neither you, I or anyone else on here has the orb. No one can truly say they know the national interest, just as no one can truly say just what is going on. We simply do not know... despite the complete conviction of some on here that they have the oracle on the subject.

[RingoMcCartney]

We shouldn't be surprised by Verhofstadts antics.

He clearly hate national sovereignty. He despises the nation state. He's evangelically convinced that self determination is something to be crushed.

He dangerous attitude is summed up at the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:


“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”


When hysteria riddled, Little Europeaner extremists claim to have "the final remedy" they should be opposed by every right minded democrat in Europe.

[aggi]

Quite apart from the strange idea that Boris should negotiate a withdrawal agreement when we know what the EU position is and what its terms are ...

The technology already exists and is put into practice for two countries with a land border, one in the Customs Union and the other out of it. Norway is not in the Customs Union, and many of their crossing points into Sweden (soon to be all but one of them) are controlled by cameras, not a border post.

Is this new, have you got a link to it?

The last article I read on the Norway/Sweden model was how it couldn't be used in Ireland because there were still plenty of border checks and all lorries have to go through the border post and can't use the smaller roads with just the cameras.

I'm also not sure how having British border patrols going into Ireland and vice versa, as happens at the Norway/Sweden border, will go down.

[Lancasterclaret]

Sorry to interrupt the talk about traitors but this seems very relevant.

Nigel Farage and the Brexit party have voted against a European parliament resolution calling for stronger EU action to counter election meddling and Russian disinformation.

Carry on!

[RingoMcCartney]

There is no "Brexit"crisis and uncertainty.





There is "Still Remaining" crisis and uncertainty.

[martin_p]

We shouldn't be surprised by Verhofstadts antics.

He clearly hate national sovereignty. He despises the nation state. He's evangelically convinced that self determination is something to be crushed.

He dangerous attitude is summed up at the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:


“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”


When hysteria riddled, Little Europeaner extremists claim to have "the final remedy" they should be opposed by every right minded democrat in Europe.

Do you have a recurring appointment in your phone calendar reminding you to keep posting this?

[KateR]

Any system must pass the test of proving that there is nothing in the lorry that doesn't appear on the paperwork. This will always need a physical check somewhere.

How does Trusted Traders work then?

How do Switzerland manage there border, they have a hard border, yet somehow they don't have a 27 mile tail back of wagons/lorries waiting to get through.

There are ways to discuss, manage and negotiate in order to ensure best for both parties, however it needs both sides to negotiate and understand the other parties main issues and compromise. At the moment the EU seems to be saying, no, no we will not relax and work through these issues, every statement and speech I have seen is that the UK MUST present and we will make the final decision as to whether we are willing to move forward. Not once have I seen someone from the EU side say, ok we have a compromise we believe the UK can live with, please don't tell me that May's deal did that because it never even made the smell test for what Brexit was in regard to and what parliament would accept on behalf of the UK. I do blame May and her so called negotiating team for this and the delays just as much as I blame the EU.

However the EU are playing with fire, I don't believe current negotiations will come to an acceptable agreement, I don't believe the present UK gov will back down, I do believe there will be a GE. I do believe the EU stance will never be acceptable so they will either have to change or face the consequences of No Deal if BJ gets reelected PM with a majority.

[martin_p]

There is no "Brexit"crisis and uncertainty.





There is "Still Remaining" crisis and uncertainty.

Ok, tell me what terms we’re leaving the EU on if there’s no Brexit uncertainty.

[summitclaret]

On the other hand the EU and the UK are sick to death of the Brexit 'problem' and a free trade deal might be agreed surprisingly quickly.

Well it could be if there was a political will, as the standards etc are already aligned. However, there isn't because the EU are determined to put off anyone else leaving and are scared of how well we will do economically once we are free from them.

[TheFamilyCat]

""Well in my opinion, dear colleagues the real traitor is he or she who risks bringing disaster upon his country, its economy, and its citizens, by pushing Britain out of the European Union. That is in my opinion, a traitor."

Guy Verhofstadt referring to Boris.

It illustrates perfectly the mindset of these, evangelical EU nationalist , extremist, bureaucrats in Brussels have.

"Pushing Britain out of the European Union". He wants to ignore the fact that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (which the EU now clearly want to economically anex) voted in a free and democratic referendum and chose to leave his beloved democracy despising organisation.

His point blank refusal and clear angry bewilderment that the British People don't want to be part of his project . Has obviously dialled up his personal hysteria levels , to new highs.

Rather than accepting and respecting a nations right to self determination, and regain the position of being an independent, self governing country. He thrashes around like a semi demented fraggle, at Boris , simply because Johnson is attempting to enact The Will of The People.

I see you conveniently ignored the bit where he highlighted we were risking bringing disaster upon th country, economy and citizens. But that bit isn't important to you is it?

[martin_p]

How does Trusted Traders work then?

How do Switzerland manage there border, they have a hard border, yet somehow they don't have a 27 mile tail back of wagons/lorries waiting to get through.

There are ways to discuss, manage and negotiate in order to ensure best for both parties, however it needs both sides to negotiate and understand the other parties main issues and compromise. At the moment the EU seems to be saying, no, no we will not relax and work through these issues, every statement and speech I have seen is that the UK MUST present and we will make the final decision as to whether we are willing to move forward. Not once have I seen someone from the EU side say, ok we have a compromise we believe the UK can live with, please don't tell me that May's deal did that because it never even made the smell test for what Brexit was in regard to and what parliament would accept on behalf of the UK. I do blame May and her so called negotiating team for this and the delays just as much as I blame the EU.

However the EU are playing with fire, I don't believe current negotiations will come to an acceptable agreement, I don't believe the present UK gov will back down, I do believe there will be a GE. I do believe the EU stance will never be acceptable so they will either have to change or face the consequences of No Deal if BJ gets reelected PM with a majority.

Because Norway accepts a lot of EU rules and regulations despite not being a member.

[summitclaret]

Boris Johnson and Leo Varadkar are currently meeting less than ten minutes away from my house. Reckon I’ll pop down, show Leo dsr’s post, and Brexit will be sorted before the day is out!

Well that's better than showing him yours.

[martin_p]

Well that's better than showing him yours.

Yep, I don’t claim to have all the answers so there’d be no point.

[SonofPog]

How do Switzerland manage there border, they have a hard border, yet somehow they don't have a 27 mile tail back of wagons/lorries waiting to get through.

The Swiss Confederation has adopted various provisions of European Union law in order to participate in the Union's single market, without joining as a member state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerla ... _relations

(Edit Note- unable to get above link to work properly)

----

There is no evidence that we'll get any form of FTA without accepting EU laws (with of course no longer having a say in them)

[keith1879]

How does Trusted Traders work then?

How do Switzerland manage there border, they have a hard border, yet somehow they don't have a 27 mile tail back of wagons/lorries waiting to get through.

There are ways to discuss, manage and negotiate in order to ensure best for both parties, however it needs both sides to negotiate and understand the other parties main issues and compromise. At the moment the EU seems to be saying, no, no we will not relax and work through these issues, every statement and speech I have seen is that the UK MUST present and we will make the final decision as to whether we are willing to move forward. Not once have I seen someone from the EU side say, ok we have a compromise we believe the UK can live with, please don't tell me that May's deal did that because it never even made the smell test for what Brexit was in regard to and what parliament would accept on behalf of the UK. I do blame May and her so called negotiating team for this and the delays just as much as I blame the EU.

However the EU are playing with fire, I don't believe current negotiations will come to an acceptable agreement, I don't believe the present UK gov will back down, I do believe there will be a GE. I do believe the EU stance will never be acceptable so they will either have to change or face the consequences of No Deal if BJ gets reelected PM with a majority.

I never said there would be a 27 mile tailback. The issue in Ireland is that there cannot be a hard border.....tailbacks are irrelevant. Switzerland (as you yourself say) have a hard border....so that is no good as a model.

[KateR]

Because Norway accepts a lot of EU rules and regulations despite not being a member.

I deliberately did not mention Norway because it's not a good example, so I am not sure why you brought them back in to discussion rather than answering the 2 questions I asked.

[martin_p]

I deliberately did not mention Norway because it's not a good example, so I am not sure why you brought them back in to discussion rather than answering the 2 questions I asked.

D’oh! Misread your post, apologies.

[CombatClaret]

Sorry If it's been done before.

The YouGov analysis for the Evening Standard of 300 surveys shows “concrete” evidence that the country shifted against quitting the European bloc

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 57476.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

204 out 224 polls since 2017 show Remain ahead.
74 out of 75 in 2019 show Remain ahead.

I think they few die hard leavers on here can no longer be seen as the conned and but have actively joined the con men themselves.

poll.jpg (91.68 KiB) Viewed 1938 times

[KateR]

The Swiss Confederation has adopted various provisions of European Union law in order to participate in the Union's single market, without joining as a member state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerla ... _relations

----

There is no evidence that we'll get any form of FTA without accepting EU laws (with of course no longer having a say in them)

I do know basically how Switzerland works and I don't claim it is a model we should follow, they have over 20 different Articles agreed with the EU that allows them to function, I believe they can do free trade deals outside the EU, I was more pointing to the fact they can work with the EU, they have a hard border and they don't have the huge tailbacks that remain proclaim will happen. It is a workable solution, also my point was that Trusted Traders do not have there goods checked elsewhere, they load, they ship it off and they cross borders without being stopped. Yes there will be occasionally a stop and spot check to keep them on there toes and ensure they are to be Trusted. Things can be negotiated but as many leavers believe the EU is trying to impose something that will be punitive to the UK such that they will highlight the plight of leaving to the 27 members, whether this is true or not it is perception and you have to change perception and so far Remainers and the EU have failed miserably to change this perception.

[dsr]

Is this new, have you got a link to it?

The last article I read on the Norway/Sweden model was how it couldn't be used in Ireland because there were still plenty of border checks and all lorries have to go through the border post and can't use the smaller roads with just the cameras.

I'm also not sure how having British border patrols going into Ireland and vice versa, as happens at the Norway/Sweden border, will go down.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-eur ... k-ireland/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dsr]

Any system must pass the test of proving that there is nothing in the lorry that doesn't appear on the paperwork. This will always need a physical check somewhere.

VAT physical checks and inspections have been getting less and less as the computerised paperwork and computer analysis increases. The same can and will happen with Customs checks.

[KateR]

I never said there would be a 27 mile tailback. The issue in Ireland is that there cannot be a hard border.....tailbacks are irrelevant. Switzerland (as you yourself say) have a hard border....so that is no good as a model.

I agree you never said that I was answer part you and others with my post, to you I was answering your statement regarding there must be checks somewhere and I do not believe that is true using Trusted Trader agreements, of course I was also believing the checks at loading and final unloading were not what you meant, but somewhere on route when crossing borders.

I also was not pointing Switzerland out as a model we could follow, more of a sign that the EU can agree things, technology can be used, also just to be clear I am not saying Trusted Traders agreement can be used for everyone and that, in and of itself does not solve other issues.

[dsr]

Yep, I don’t claim to have all the answers so there’d be no point.

That's a lot of the problem. Too many people, not just people like yourself but also people in power, are saying that we don't have all the answers so it can't work. It doesn't occur to them that if they don't have the answers, there's nothing to stop them working them out.

Under Enda Kenny, Ireland was working on solutions to the border problem. Varadkar scrapped those plans, so it's hardly any wonder that RoI has made no progress to finding a solution.

[KateR]

Sorry If it's been done before.

The YouGov analysis for the Evening Standard of 300 surveys shows “concrete” evidence that the country shifted against quitting the European bloc

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 57476.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

204 out 224 polls since 2017 show Remain ahead.
74 out of 75 in 2019 show Remain ahead.

I think they few die hard leavers on here can no longer be seen as the conned and but have actively joined the con men themselves.

poll.jpg

Super, you have solved all things, you have rumbled the people in favor of leave, I believe this is a great leap forward and clearly LibDems will call for a GE immediately because this proves without a shadow of doubt that they were, just like you and a few others on here, right all along.

Bring it on I say

[elwaclaret]

Do you have a recurring appointment in your phone calendar reminding you to keep posting this?

Do you have an implant that causes you to keep ignoring it?

[Lancasterclaret]

No one claims to have all the answers

But you can base your answers on reality or you can base them on stuff that isn't true or won't happen.

[Devils_Advocate]

Do you have an implant that causes you to keep ignoring it?

Do you understand the full context of the quote in terms of the full content and the point in history? I think it contains some very good thinking as a reflection piece of how we went wrong to allow a second great war materialise following the lessons we should have learned from the first.

The fact that some of the ideas have proved a cornerstone for providing almost blanket peace and stability within Europe is something to be thankful for

Also I replied a few times to Ringo when he has highlighted this quote pointing out its full context which he always conveniently managed to avoid responding to

https://federalunion.org.uk/the-ending-of-armageddon/

[KateR]

No one claims to have all the answers

But you can base your answers on reality or you can base them on stuff that isn't true or won't happen.

Very very true, but you can also base your answer/thoughts on all the experts on both sides of the argument, those same experts who are guessing as to what will happen and have no facts to back it up, just an opinion which is not reality, but that doesn't stop many on here posting links from these experts pontificating as to the outcome. Many of the same experts that made predictions in 2016/17/18 that turned out to be wrong but doesn't stop some people trotting them out again and again as the narrative of proof.

There is one overarching fact that is in my mind undisputable, no one really knows what will happen when we leave.

[martin_p]

Do you have an implant that causes you to keep ignoring it?

The context of the quote was explained to Wrongo the first time he used it, not going to do it every time.