More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[martin_p]

Majority or not, no one is calling her an unelected leader anymore.
She 'won' the right to lead the country and is doing so.

I bet she pines for the days when they did!

[Darthlaw]

May took us to the polls to get her "hard brexit" and was told to foxtrot oscar.

Whilst I appreciate you're not making the point for a second referendum, it's also interesting that the Lib Dems were also given the foxtrot oscar by the voting public for suggesting that a second referendum should take place, with their performance.

Of course that is easy to ignore for those wearing Remain glasses.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I agree Paul.

There are many politicians out there like Wolfgang Schäuble who believe that fiscal and monetary union cannot succeed without political union. Merkel seems to have managed to hold him and others at bay, but the direction is only going one way. I would love to stay in an EU that was an outward looking common market with close collaboration between nations, but sadly I feel sure I will never live to see it again. The choice was always a binary one - closer political union, or leave.

[Erasmus]

I don't think that would be the case, Crosspool. As with the Euro zone, I think it is quite likely that those countries who want close political union will move in that direction whilst those who don't, and Britain would have been included in that group, would take up some form of associate member status. I really don't think it would have been 'in or out' as there are several other countries who do not want closer political union but do want to retain a position within the EU.

[Paul Waine]

I don't think that would be the case, Crosspool. As with the Euro zone, I think it is quite likely that those countries who want close political union will move in that direction whilst those who don't, and Britain would have been included in that group, would take up some form of associate member status. I really don't think it would have been 'in or out' as there are several other countries who do not want closer political union but do want to retain a position within the EU.

Hi Erasmus, maybe you've got the answer for all of us: UK out of the "closer political union" and the Eurozone - and associated with what works for the UK. Maybe that's what the negotiations with the EU27 are all about and what "access to the single market and customs union" aka "free trade agreement" both mean.

[RingoMcCartney]

More post brexit referendum good news.

Order books for 20% of the economy are doing well whilst the other 80% suffers.

While weve been in the Common Market/EEC/EU britains manufacturing base has shrunk as a percenatge of total GDP.

Its pretty much halved as a % . And dont places like Burnley know it! And didnt places like Burnley vote Leave in their droves?

Brexit could give the UK economy a much needed help in rebalancing. Something that Politicians have talked about for years but thats all theyve done. Talked about it. We're over reliant on Services, Finance and banking and geographically, its all centred on London and the South East and London.

And here's some genuinely great post Brexit refendum news - Manufacturers end 2017 with order books at a near 30-year high.

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... z51hWsqQVM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The best rated comment on the above article - "Oh look another remainer lie exposed. Manufacturing never collapsed and 3 million jobs wasn't lost as they claimed would happen. Brexit has saved our manufacturing industry, exports are up and companies can't keep up with demand. The weak pound and less EU regulation will cause more manufacturing to come back to the UK creating even more jobs. I guess remainers would prefer to see bankers instead of engineers"

In my opinion, The People of towns like Burnley, have had over 40 years to make their own personal impact assessment of EU membership. They decided Leave.

Reasons to be cheerful aggi?

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Unsuprisingly the same source has not been quite as keen, to describe the FTSE 100 reaching record levels, since the referendum, as proof that the economy has boomed!!!

Since the referendum but not since the actual Brexit, if that's your yardstick I can't wait to see what happens to the FTSE 100 on the day we leave, do you think it'll go up?

I don't know why you come on here, do you have some massive need to prove yourself an illiterate moron to the entire town?

If so, job done. Many, many times over.

[RingoMcCartney]

Hi Erasmus, maybe you've got the answer for all of us: UK out of the "closer political union" and the Eurozone - and associated with what works for the UK. Maybe that's what the negotiations with the EU27 are all about and what "access to the single market and customs union" aka "free trade agreement" both mean.

Paul, do you really think that an EU that has enshrined "ever closer union" into its founding principles and subsequent treaties. Will accept associate members. Their belligerent approach to the brexit negotiations which are based on "we need to show anybody else who's thinking of leaving that they are not better off out than in." ?

I also listened to Yanis Varoufakis about his negotiations with the EU. Remember, when the Greek people voted to end austerity and the EU parachuted a former Goldman Sachs man in to run the country until the Troika had done their dirty work!? (which lead to a third of Greek folk being denied access to their NHS)

He said that in private rooms away from the cameras. EU officials told him, that they knew the measures they were going to impose on the, already beleagured, Greek people would be catastrophic for them. However, they explained that writing off the debt, and being reasonable and fair minded, would be seen by other countries as an insurance policy for them too. He said he genuinely felt that the EU wants to punish the UK for leaving its clutches, rather than negotiate a MUTUALLY beneficial deal.

As was seen when Camoron trecked around Europe to try and get a better relationship with the EU prior to the referndum. They simply werent interested. They have a a grand, pan European, dream. If they werent prepared to give one of the EU's biggest financial contributor (£350,000,000 per week Gross) a different deal. Do you genuinley beileve they'll be more sympathetic to smaller coutries who are net receivers.

Recent history, and Yanis Varoufakis opinion, suggests not.

[Greenmile]

A first referendum was conducted under strict OFCOM and campaigning rules...

It was supposed to be...

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/ ... -bbc-ofcom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 73551.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -democracy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...That all our major political parties campaigned for Remain was unfortunate...

Why unfortunate? Do you mean unsurprising?

...So, any talk of a 2nd referendum based on polling is simply fantasy land. If somehow it happened, it would rip our country apart. The animosity would have no precedent in our lifetimes....

Just like the first one, then.

...If Remain had won, with 48% voting leave, a true leader would say there is sufficient scepticism to have to withdraw but to retain full single market and customs union access, as something akin to the EEA / EFTA...

You have got to be ******* kidding me. “If remain had won narrowly a true leader would have left anyway”!?!? Is that what passes for democracy in your mind?

As far as I can see, May is trying to get the latter, and thus anyone opposing her is an absolute disgrace to the office they hold...

Or, y’know, a believer in parliamentary sovereignty and “taking back control”.

[Lancasterclaret]

Of course that is easy to ignore for those wearing Remain glasses.

Regarding the Lib Dems, I'm a Lib Dem voter who realised that the only chance of stopping the Hard Brexit was voting Lab in my constituency.

Tactical voting and a load of young people realising that the older generation where taking us to a place that wouldn't benefit them took out May.

Course, the Hard Brexiteers ignored that "will of the people" vote and continue to press for it. If they can ignore voters wishes (and this is where I fully agree with Crosspool, we should be aiming for the best possible Brexit, but the Hard Brexiteers will make sure we don't get it) then so can everybody else.

There is no doubt that we are leaving, but there is also no doubt the following

- we will be worse off
- There is a compromise position that is acceptable to most, but that is worse than we have now
- we've emboldened the kind of people and thoughts that we fought against 75 years ago

[randomclaret2]

First the admission to liking Richard Bacon and now "I'm a LibDem voter "... what next Lancaster....you quite like Owen Coyle ?

[Lancasterclaret]

I liked him when he was our manager.

I loved him when he was managing that lot down the road!

[randomclaret2]

" Theres no way the public can be informed enough to make the decision"
Who said that ? ( P.S. it wasnt one of the fascist dictators we fought against 75 years ago )

[Darthlaw]

Tactical voting and a load of young people realising that the older generation where taking us to a place that wouldn't benefit them took out May.

A load of young people going after Jezza's 'free stuff' mandate, you mean?

How ironic that they would vote for a government who would defer billions in debt (for them to pay back later), to somehow protest at a generation who were taking them to a place which wouldn't benefit them.

[UpTheBeehole]

New report:

The figures reported here suggest three major points. First, the UK and its regions are far more vulnerable to trade-related risks of Brexit than other EU member states and their regions. Our results also mirror the broad thrust of the arguments of other analyses (Dhingra et al., 2017). As such, the UK is far more dependent on a relatively seamless and comprehensive free trade deal than the other EU member states. Mercantilist arguments popular in the UK media, which posit that the UK trade deficit with the rest of Europe implies that on economic grounds other EU member states will be eager to agree a free trade deal with the UK, are not correct. When we consider the real trade-demand impacts on the EU member states and their regions, allowing for both domestic and international input-output relationships which capture the complex global value-chains which crisscross borders many times (Bailey & De Propris, 2017), the emerging picture is very different. The UK's exposure to Brexit is some 4.6 times greater than that of the rest of other EU as a whole, and the UK regions are far more exposed to Brexit risks than regions in other EU countries, except for those in Ireland. As such, in all likelihood the potential impacts of either no deal (Springford & Tilford, 2017) between the UK and the EU or a bad deal whereby the UK's access to the Single Market and the Customs Union is heavily curtailed, are far more damaging for the UK than for the rest of the EU.

Second, it is many of the UK's economically weaker regions which are especially exposed to Brexit. Third, across Europe there is a strong core-periphery type of economic geography to these patterns with the highly urbanized regions in northern and western Europe being more exposed to Brexit risks than regions in southern or eastern Europe. This is also reflected in the national levels of Brexit related risks exposure. As such, our analysis suggests that on purely economic grounds at least, the Republic of Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium, will have more to gain from a relatively seamless and comprehensive UK–EU free trade deal than will other EU countries.

Finally, we can ask whether our analytical approach, which essentially involves setting all UK–EU trade linkages to zero, represents an upper bound for the potential Brexit-related exposure risks faced by regions. On this point, the evidence on the ‘no-deal’ scenario (HoC, 2017) suggests that the legal basis of many of the UK's cross-border exchanges (Dunt, 2016; UKICE, 2017) including all air travel (Guardian, 2017), sea-borne logistics, and even health and energy systems, will become insecure (UKICE, 2017), while the EU rules of origin will make UK–EU high value-added just-in-time systems in manufacturing and retail all but impossible to maintain (Bailey & De Propris, 2017). In all likelihood most existing and complex UK–EU supply chains, which also tend to be in knowledge-intensive and high value-adding sectors, will be either heavily disrupted or completely severed. From these perspectives our analytical approach would appear to be very realistic. Moreover, our analysis has not even considered the impacts on foreign direct investment, human capital-migration, and the additional trade disruptions or complications related to the UK's commercial relationships which do not directly cross any UK-EU borders. The fact that the EU also has some 40 or so different trade or cooperation agreements with third countries 18 means that in total the UK will need to negotiate well over 700 new trade agreements (Financial Times, 2017b). In our analysis we have treated these relationships as being unaffected by Brexit. Yet, the evidence regarding the likely impacts of ‘no deal’ allied with the additional complications related to the UK's non-EU trade relationships suggests that our analysis may not represent an upper bound, and that the actual Brexit-related exposure risks facing the UK and its regions are even greater than those reported here.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12334/full

[RingoMcCartney]

Since the referendum but not since the actual Brexit, if that's your yardstick I can't wait to see what happens to the FTSE 100 on the day we leave, do you think it'll go up?

I don't know why you come on here, do you have some massive need to prove yourself an illiterate moron to the entire town?

If so, job done. Many, many times over.

Haha! More personal insults!

Thanks for standing in for speaking on behalf of your chum Imploding Turtles Head. And I say that as one illiterate moron to an even bigger one!

The FTSE 100? The day we Brexit, will it go up or down? I Dont know. I guess it depends on the deal we achieve and how the City percieve that deal.

Now, as you know, your close associate Imploding Turtles Head, on the night, and into the early hours, of the referendum result was frantically, on an almost hour by hour basis, uploading graphs showing how the index of the FTSE 100 had fallen. They were accompanied by hystrical communiques from the Turtle Bunker that claimed this was uniquivacable proof that all the pre refendum lies, of an economic apocalypse, were materialising, right before our very eyes!

Since then, the same index has reached record levels. But the generation of white smoke from the Turtle Bunker, confirming an economic boom seems to have been to have been hit by some sort of generation problems. Given Imploding Turtles Head's far, hard left politics, and assuming he runs the Bunker on a Venezuala-style progressive left basis. I can understand why he'll be probably otherwise engaged, in lengthy discussions with his Politically Correct, LBGTXYZ workers representatives, and Bunker shop stewards trying to hammer out an agreement to get the complex up and running again. I hear that the negotiations make the Brexit negotiations look like a walk in the park. Something to do with the furnaces down there, not being trans neutral enough, and the liquid being used, being nowhere near as gender fluid enough to satisfy the demands of the ethnic minority quotas. All this, on top of a particularly heated late night rally he was obliged to attend. It was just latest, in a long series of, demands from the special sadism wing of the Turtle Bunker Gay rights lobby. Apparently, they gave him a right mouthful and had him over a barrel...... What!?

[aggi]

Reasons to be cheerful aggi?

Cannibalising 80% of the economy to jumpstart 20% doesn't make me too cheerful.

Personally I know a fair few people working on impact assessments for financial services, people who've been told that the likelihood is their job will move abroad if Brexit negotiations don't go well and people who have already lost their job due to Brexit.

Although it may appear great for those who have a romantic idea of Britain as a major manufacturing nation, sacrificing 1m high paying jobs in the city for 1m manufacturing jobs isn't really going to work out economically.

While weve been in the Common Market/EEC/EU britains manufacturing base has shrunk as a percenatge of total GDP.

That's also roughly the same time period as when China opened up to foreign trade which obviously caused issues.

How do you think Brexit will aid manufacturing specifically (other than the current situation of the weak pound which will only be temporary)? If it's a case of EU trade deals, how does Germany manage so well?

[UpTheBeehole]

Losing single market access 'far more damaging' to UK than remaining EU countries, study claims

Losing access to the European single market will be far more damaging to the UK than the remaining EU countries, a new study has found.

Researchers claimed the UK is almost five times more exposed to the negative effects from trade disruption caused by Brexit than the EU.

This puts Britain in "a very weak bargaining position" as talks on the future relationship get under way, according to the team from the University of Birmingham.

The researchers said their findings show it is "not correct" to argue, as some Brexit-backers do, that Britain's trade deficit with the rest of the EU gives it an advantage in negotiations, because the remaining 27 nations have more to lose in terms of exports.

Their analysis of trade relationships found a "very different" picture, under which the loss of access to the single market and customs union is "far more damaging" to the UK than the EU27.

The research found that "all UK regions are systematically more vulnerable to Brexit than regions in any other country", with trade-related risk exposure ranging from almost 17 per cent of GDP in parts of the North to 10 per cent in London.

Overall, the results show that 2.64% of EU GDP is at risk because of Brexit trade-related consequences. In the UK, Brexit trade-related risks account for 12.2% of UK GDP, said the report.

"The UK and its regions are far more vulnerable to trade-related risks of Brexit than other EU member states and their regions," said the report by the University's 's City Region Economic and Development Institute (City-Redi), published in academic journal Papers in Regional Science.

"As such, the UK is far more dependent on a relatively seamless and comprehensive free trade deal than the other EU member states.

"Mercantilist arguments popular in the UK media, which posit that the UK trade deficit with the rest of Europe implies that on economic grounds other EU member states will be eager to agree a free trade deal with the UK, are not correct.

"The UK's exposure to Brexit is some 4.6 times greater than that of the rest of other EU as a whole, and the UK regions are far more exposed to Brexit risks than regions in other EU countries, except for those in Ireland.

"As such, in all likelihood the potential impacts of either no deal between the UK and the EU or a bad deal, whereby the UK's access to the single market and the customs union is heavily curtailed, are far more damaging for the UK than for the rest of the EU."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politic ... 22596.html

[UpTheBeehole]

This is one of Michel Barnier's slides from last week.

Theresa May's red lines lead us to a Canada style option, and that is it.

[randomclaret2]

Is that the Russian oligarch owned , George Osborne edited Standard you've copied and pasted from ?

[Cryssys]

Ringo wrote: While weve been in the Common Market/EEC/EU britains manufacturing base has shrunk as a percenatge of total GDP. Its pretty much halved as a % . And dont places like Burnley know it! And didnt places like Burnley vote Leave in their droves?


And you blame being in the EU for this, do you? How is it many other EU countries, notably Germany, have managed to maintain significant manufacturing capacity. What about the effects of government policy? (Mr’s Thatcher’s much vaunted drive towards a service economy) What about the rise of China and the availability of cheap Asian imports on the UK manufacturing base?

Ringo wrote: Brexit could give the UK economy a much needed help in rebalancing. Something that Politicians have talked about for years but thats all theyve done. Talked about it. We're over reliant on Services, Finance and banking and geographically, its all centred on London and the South East and London.

Why would Brexit lead to rebalancing? We’ll still be governed by the same people with the same agenda’s and the same attitudes. Do you have any evidence to support that statement or is just your opinion?

Ringo wrote: And here's some genuinely great post Brexit refendum news - Manufacturers end 2017 with order books at a near 30-year high.

This has already been debunked on two levels: 1. every European country has seen its order books increase the UK is no exception. 2. The low exchange rates have made the UK more competitive, on the flip side this has caused a rise in inflation to over 3%, interest rates are rising and wages are falling even further behind and the people of the UK are being relentlessly squeezed.

Ringo wrote: Brexit has saved our manufacturing industry, exports are up and companies can't keep up with demand. The weak pound and less EU regulation will cause more manufacturing to come back to the UK creating even more jobs.

How will Brexit save our manufacturing industry? Yes, order books are up but that’s true of the whole of Europe. We have gained an edge because of the low exchange rate but that will be short lived. The cost of imports and raw materials has risen sharply and inflation is rising fast and interest rates will have to rise in response. It won’t be long before these negatives balance the positives.

Ringo wrote:I guess remainers would prefer to see bankers instead of engineers"

As a remainer and an engineer I want to see a balanced and stable economy. I want to live in a prosperous country which offers hope and opportunity to all its inhabitants. Blaming all our ills on EU membership is wrong, as is the belief that leaving will cure them all. The problems you allude to Ringo are as much, if not more, the fault of successive governments than the result of our EU membership. To pretend otherwise and think that leaving the EU is the answer to all our problems ignores the impact of domestic politics, the complexity of the modern world and the way that business works. It sounds good and it’s tempting to believe but it’s a gross oversimplification.

Ringo wrote: In my opinion, The People of towns like Burnley, have had over 40 years to make their own personal impact assessment of EU membership. They decided Leave.

Sounds to me like you’re saying that everything that has gone wrong is a result of our being in the EU. I suggest that things would have been a whole lot worse if we had not been members of the EU.

[UpTheBeehole]

Is that the Russian oligarch owned , George Osborne edited Standard you've copied and pasted from ?

It's a report published by the Journal of Regional Science

[Lancasterclaret]

How ironic that they would vote for a government who would defer billions in debt (for them to pay back later), to somehow protest at a generation who were taking them to a place which wouldn't benefit them.

Call it whatever you want if it makes you feel better, but the young are not comfortable with the idea of the old voting for the future.

I wouldn't mind too much if it was based on "facts" (and I'm guessing the young wouldn't as well) but as its based on nothing apart from a vision that I've not got a clue about (because I know it never existed) then I can understand their frustration.

When you add that to the fact that the generation with houses, decent protected pensions and full benefits of being in the EU their entire working lives is trying to shaft them, then I can understand it even more.

I suggest you think about that Darth, cos its not a nice picture that I'm painting of your generation. And sadly, in far too many cases, its completely justified.

No wonder you all believed in the "have cake and eat it" Brexit. Its what you've had your whole working lives.

[RingoMcCartney]

Cannibalising 80% of the economy to jumpstart 20% doesn't make me too cheerful.

Personally I know a fair few people working on impact assessments for financial services, people who've been told that the likelihood is their job will move abroad if Brexit negotiations don't go well and people who have already lost their job due to Brexit.

Although it may appear great for those who have a romantic idea of Britain as a major manufacturing nation, sacrificing 1m high paying jobs in the city for 1m manufacturing jobs isn't really going to work out economically.

While weve been in the Common Market/EEC/EU britains manufacturing base has shrunk as a percenatge of total GDP.

That's also roughly the same time period as when China opened up to foreign trade which obviously caused issues.

How do you think Brexit will aid manufacturing specifically (other than the current situation of the weak pound which will only be temporary)? If it's a case of EU trade deals, how does Germany manage so well?

"Cannibilising 80%" Really!? Deutsche Bank ahve just signed a long term lease on new multi million pound offices in London.

And you know a "fair few people" that the "likelihood " is their job will go abroad. How many MILLIONS of manufacturing jobs have been lost while the UK has been a member of the EU? Do you really think the majority of British people actually giva a toss about the livelihoods of a few highly paid, kept in clover, bankers being relocated to nice swish apartments in the wealthiset parts of wherever? (if it does happen!) Do you? Are they the very same bankers that were allowed to bring the global financial sytem to its knees? Is it those bankers that youre losing sleep over?

Whats "romantic" about making things? AMS Neve are a Burnley based company. They "Romantically" make things. Recognised by all the premier bodies in the various fields of music, TV and film, the products and their designers have been honoured by two Scientific and Engineering Academy® Awards, an Emmy™ and a Grammy™ amongst many others. Burnley based and recognised the world over. What's "romantic" about that Aggi?

https://ams-neve.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brexit could help boost the prospects of manufacturing and therefore the prospects for many many towns like Burnley. How? by the UK being free to make its all mutually beneficail trade deals all around the globe. Stop being a bit myopic, and Little Europeaneresque. Theres a whole world out there.

How's Germany done it? One of the reasons is by being a member of a common currency that artificially keeps its goods relatively cheap, while simultaneously punishing the poorer economies, who are restrained from setting fiscal and monetary policies that would be more appropriate and beneficial to their national long term circumstances.

Another reason is that by, presumably, pure coincidence. When the EU announces changes to pan European specifications on manufactred goods. German manufactures always seem to have already tooled up for these changes and able to get a head start on other countries manufactures! Ive read about this phenominum with regards, with as such varied products as, cetral heating boilers, hair dryers, vacuum cleaners and even incinerators used in creamtoriums. You dont think a German dominated EU, is having a word in the shell-like of its allies in German manufacturing do you!?

[randomclaret2]

Who are all these wealthy "old people " and where do they live Lancaster ? Probably a lot in your neck of the woods...University lecturers and the like...comfortable...well paid...pretty pleased with themselves...yet voted to remain overwhelmingly.

[UpTheBeehole]

Whats "romantic" about making things? AMS Neve are a Burnley based company. They "Romantically" make things. Recognised by all the premier bodies in the various fields of music, TV and film, the products and their designers have been honoured by two Scientific and Engineering Academy® Awards, an Emmy™ and a Grammy™ amongst many others. Burnley based and recognised the world over. What's "romantic" about that Aggi?

AMS Neve are a very small company.

It's a romantic notion that a tiny company such as AMS Neve is going to save the UK from Brexit, or even save Burnley.

[Darthlaw]

Imagine the nerve of these 'older' people using their experience to vote, especially seen as many of whom have seen the effects of the EU and how it has changed since the UK joined.

The sheer audacity of these people to use their knowledge for the benefit of their families.

Maybe these youngsters should revert to stamping their feet, holding their breath and screaming until they get what they want? Oh, yeah - the remainers are already trying that.

FWIW Lancaster, as I fall into generation Y, who has been nailed by the ridiculous property market, won't have a decent protected pension and haven't had the cake without working for it. How does that suit your narrative or what your painting of my generation?

[quoonbeatz]

burnley and similar places will be absolutely screwed by brexit. its a shame that people like ringo happily celebrate that but there we go.

[Darthlaw]

burnley and similar places will be absolutely screwed by brexit. its a shame that people like ringo happily celebrate that but there we go.

Ringo is a nutjob but the one thing he has staunchly done on this thread is defend places like Burnley whilst certain 'remain' posters on this thread have referred to the locals as 'scrubbers', etc.

Might be worth looking through the thread, eh?

[randomclaret2]

As opposed to being screwed by succesive governments for 50 years

[randomclaret2]

German manufacturing and the wealth it brings to Germany will never be allowed to suffer.History tells us how Germany tends to react when things start going wrong.

[quoonbeatz]

Ringo is a nutjob but the one thing he has staunchly done on this thread is defend places like Burnley whilst certain 'remain' posters on this thread have referred to the locals as 'scrubbers', etc.

Might be worth looking through the thread, eh?

i've read the entire thread, darth, you misunderstood my post.

my point was that its somewhat ironic that ringo defends places like burnley yet champions the very thing that is most likely to ruin them.

[UpTheBeehole]

Ringo is a nutjob but the one thing he has staunchly done on this thread is defend places like Burnley

Voting to Leave the EU is NOT defending Burnley. It's exposing it to a world of sh1t.

Burnley WILL suffer from Brexit, as the above report sets out.

[randomclaret2]

Which institute/ think tank/ political scientist coined the term " a world of **** " ?

[Bacchus]

How many MILLIONS of manufacturing jobs have been lost while the UK has been a member of the EU?

Causation or correlation, Ringo? The amount of times you repeat this point it's as though you believe the former. Maybe you could outline how being a member has impacted our manufacturing industry more than, say, the the likes of Brexit Champion James Dyson moving his manufacturing operation to Malaysia because it's cheaper? If you could explain that then maybe you'd have a point.

[Sidney1st]

Voting to Leave the EU is NOT defending Burnley. It's exposing it to a world of sh1t.

Burnley WILL suffer from Brexit, as the above report sets out.

Suffer more than it has done already over the decades?
Yes EU money has been pumped into the place, but there's little around anymore apart from the usual generic businesses that most towns have.

[quoonbeatz]

ah well if its suffered already, that's alright then, fill yer boots!

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo wrote: While weve been in the Common Market/EEC/EU britains manufacturing base has shrunk as a percenatge of total GDP. Its pretty much halved as a % . And dont places like Burnley know it! And didnt places like Burnley vote Leave in their droves?


And you blame being in the EU for this, do you? How is it many other EU countries, notably Germany, have managed to maintain significant manufacturing capacity. What about the effects of government policy? (Mr’s Thatcher’s much vaunted drive towards a service economy) What about the rise of China and the availability of cheap Asian imports on the UK manufacturing base?

Ringo wrote: Brexit could give the UK economy a much needed help in rebalancing. Something that Politicians have talked about for years but thats all theyve done. Talked about it. We're over reliant on Services, Finance and banking and geographically, its all centred on London and the South East and London.

Why would Brexit lead to rebalancing? We’ll still be governed by the same people with the same agenda’s and the same attitudes. Do you have any evidence to support that statement or is just your opinion?

Ringo wrote: And here's some genuinely great post Brexit refendum news - Manufacturers end 2017 with order books at a near 30-year high.

This has already been debunked on two levels: 1. every European country has seen its order books increase the UK is no exception. 2. The low exchange rates have made the UK more competitive, on the flip side this has caused a rise in inflation to over 3%, interest rates are rising and wages are falling even further behind and the people of the UK are being relentlessly squeezed.

Ringo wrote: Brexit has saved our manufacturing industry, exports are up and companies can't keep up with demand. The weak pound and less EU regulation will cause more manufacturing to come back to the UK creating even more jobs.

How will Brexit save our manufacturing industry? Yes, order books are up but that’s true of the whole of Europe. We have gained an edge because of the low exchange rate but that will be short lived. The cost of imports and raw materials has risen sharply and inflation is rising fast and interest rates will have to rise in response. It won’t be long before these negatives balance the positives.

Ringo wrote:I guess remainers would prefer to see bankers instead of engineers"

As a remainer and an engineer I want to see a balanced and stable economy. I want to live in a prosperous country which offers hope and opportunity to all its inhabitants. Blaming all our ills on EU membership is wrong, as is the belief that leaving will cure them all. The problems you allude to Ringo are as much, if not more, the fault of successive governments than the result of our EU membership. To pretend otherwise and think that leaving the EU is the answer to all our problems ignores the impact of domestic politics, the complexity of the modern world and the way that business works. It sounds good and it’s tempting to believe but it’s a gross oversimplification.

Ringo wrote: In my opinion, The People of towns like Burnley, have had over 40 years to make their own personal impact assessment of EU membership. They decided Leave.

Sounds to me like you’re saying that everything that has gone wrong is a result of our being in the EU. I suggest that things would have been a whole lot worse if we had not been members of the EU.

Ill read down your post and reply to each post. I wont reply to each indiviudual one cos some are closely related.

"And you blame being in the EU for this, do you?" - Yes. I belive the EU's grand plan was for Germany to do making stuff. France would do the agri stuff. Uk would do the money. Problem. In Germany everwhere does the manufacturing. UK its London. Consequnce, Non-London UK left to rot. NAd weve had 40 odd years to see its effects.

"Why would Brexit lead to rebalancing?" - Didnt say it definatley would. Suggested it could be a spring board to. And if the apocolyptic predictions on the effects on the City are to believed. We'll bloody have to wont we.

"We’ll still be governed by the same people with the same agenda’s and the same attitudes." - No. if enough people share my view that rebalancing desperately needs to happen, a govenment that could deliver, would be elected. Where I would agree with you though, is that for the last 40 odd years, we have been "governed by the same people with the same agenda’s and the same attitudes." They've pretty much all been europhiles and happy to be subservient to the EU, accept its rules and reglations and lose sovereignty to it.

"every European country has seen its order books increase the UK is no exception." - Id say orders at there highest since 1988 is exceptioanal. If other countries are experiencing equal 30 year highs, I stand corrected.

"The low exchange rates have made the UK more competitive, on the flip side this has caused a rise in inflation to over 3%, interest rates are rising and wages are falling even further behind and the people of the UK are being relentlessly squeezed." - Its commonly accpeted that the pound was over valued. A correction was seen as over due. Whats bad about the Uk being more competitive? Whether its temporary or long term, Its to be welcomed right? Inflation is predicted to fall back in the spring. How were wages and relative living standards effected by the economic crash, that took place while we had a Labour government and we were in the EU? While weve been IN the EU theres been a massive increase in temporary, part time, gig economy and zero hours jobs. The very poorest, unskilled workers have been really adversly affected while weve been members of the EU. Alan Milburns social report confirms that with 60 of the bottom 65 towns voted Brexit. People in those poorest towns have had 40 years to decide whether the EU has benefitted them. Who am I or you to argue?

"The cost of imports and raw materials has risen sharply and inflation is rising fast and interest rates will have to rise in response." - Inflation is set to fall back in spring. And if the the pounds value reamins at its current level, and imports do become more expensive. It could encourage the sourcing and manufacturing of UK replacements! Also, you're basing the future on existing trade deals and tarrifs. Once we're free of the EU, we will be able to arrange more benefical deals with suplliers from all over the globe. Many have already expressed keen interest in doing just that! Lots of positives there! And remember, I think Im right in saying, that around 80% of businesses have no business out side the UK. To them, concerns about import costs are irrelevant.

"Blaming all our ills on EU membership is wrong, as is the belief that leaving will cure them all. - I dont, and I dont believe it will.

"the fault of successive governments than the result of our EU membership." - Successive governments have been wedded to EU membership. Unwilling to think beyond it.

"the impact of domestic politics, the complexity of the modern world and the way that business works." - I dont underestimate the impact of domestic politics. However, I trust democracy more than politicians. I think the fact that we can boot out our goverments is vital. Unfortunately, with govenment, comes bureaucracy. So why create a whole tier but on an even grander scale in the EU. And remember this. When EU commissioners are appointed they swear an oath of allegience,

“I do solemnly undertake: to be completely independent in the performance of my duties, in the general interest of the Communities; in the performance of these duties, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other body”.

In other words, they are explicitly supposed to be acting for the good of the whole of the EU, not just their respective countries. I want to be able to vote for and sack politicains whose loyalties are to the UK only. Not to a supranational body that may or may not have Britains interests at heart.

"I suggest that things would have been a whole lot worse if we had not been members of the EU." I think your wrong Aggi. We've had 40 odd years to see how things have panned out. 17,400,000 Britons have made their mind up, about life INSIDE the EU. We havent, yet, had 5 minutes to compare what the UK will be like OUTSIDE.

[RingoMcCartney]

AMS Neve are a very small company.

It's a romantic notion that a tiny company such as AMS Neve is going to save the UK from Brexit, or even save Burnley.

An internationally renowned leader in its sphere and its "romantic". Another fine example of economic self-loathing.

BRING OUT YER DEAD............BRING OUT YER DEAD.........

[Sidney1st]

ah well if its suffered already, that's alright then, fill yer boots!

I didn't say that did I?

Being in the EU hasn't done what you'd call much for Burnley apart from the odd bit of regeneration.

Successive UK governments from both parties have failed to stop the movement of a large number of manufacturing jobs from leaving the UK and haven't done enough to replace those jobs.
Has the EU tried to stop that happening?

Will leaving the EU make things worse for Burnley and hundreds of places like it?
No one knows for certain.

[RingoMcCartney]

Call it whatever you want if it makes you feel better, but the young are not comfortable with the idea of the old voting for the future.

I wouldn't mind too much if it was based on "facts" (and I'm guessing the young wouldn't as well) but as its based on nothing apart from a vision that I've not got a clue about (because I know it never existed) then I can understand their frustration.

When you add that to the fact that the generation with houses, decent protected pensions and full benefits of being in the EU their entire working lives is trying to shaft them, then I can understand it even more.

I suggest you think about that Darth, cos its not a nice picture that I'm painting of your generation. And sadly, in far too many cases, its completely justified.

No wonder you all believed in the "have cake and eat it" Brexit. Its what you've had your whole working lives.

"I, an enlightened liberal, am much too intelligent to let my views be swayed by the likes of the right-wing press or Facebook trolls. Unfortunately, the older voters, are incapable of critical thought, and therefore lift their opinions directly from the pages of The Mail, the Telegraph or other-peoples' social-media. It is inconceivable that older people could have formed their opinions independently; after all, independent thinkers would only ever vote to remain in the EU, like me."

[Bacchus]

Will leaving the EU make things worse for Burnley and hundreds of places like it?
No one knows for certain.

There's been a lot of this recently. The land of milk and honey predictions have been downgraded to "we might all die but nobody can be 100% sure"

[UpTheBeehole]

An internationally renowned leader in its sphere and its "romantic". Another fine example of economic self-loathing.

Aye, an internationally renowned leader in its sphere, employing about 50 people tops.

That's not gonna save Burnley pal.

[quoonbeatz]

Ill read down your post and reply to each post. I wont reply to each indiviudual one cos some are closely related.

"And you blame being in the EU for this, do you?" - Yes. I belive the EU's grand plan was for Germany to do making stuff. France would do the agri stuff. Uk would do the money. Problem. In Germany everwhere does the manufacturing. UK its London. Consequnce, Non-London UK left to rot. NAd weve had 40 odd years to see its effects.

"Why would Brexit lead to rebalancing?" - Didnt say it definatley would. Suggested it could be a spring board to. And if the apocolyptic predictions on the effects on the City are to believed. We'll bloody have to wont we.

"We’ll still be governed by the same people with the same agenda’s and the same attitudes." - No. if enough people share my view that rebalancing desperately needs to happen, a govenment that could deliver, would be elected. Where I would agree with you though, is that for the last 40 odd years, we have been "governed by the same people with the same agenda’s and the same attitudes." They've pretty much all been europhiles and happy to be subservient to the EU, accept its rules and reglations and lose sovereignty to it.

"every European country has seen its order books increase the UK is no exception." - Id say orders at there highest since 1988 is exceptioanal. If other countries are experiencing equal 30 year highs, I stand corrected.

"The low exchange rates have made the UK more competitive, on the flip side this has caused a rise in inflation to over 3%, interest rates are rising and wages are falling even further behind and the people of the UK are being relentlessly squeezed." - Its commonly accpeted that the pound was over valued. A correction was seen as over due. Whats bad about the Uk being more competitive? Whether its temporary or long term, Its to be welcomed right? Inflation is predicted to fall back in the spring. How were wages and relative living standards effected by the economic crash, that took place while we had a Labour government and we were in the EU? While weve been IN the EU theres been a massive increase in temporary, part time, gig economy and zero hours jobs. The very poorest, unskilled workers have been really adversly affected while weve been members of the EU. Alan Milburns social report confirms that with 60 of the bottom 65 towns voted Brexit. People in those poorest towns have had 40 years to decide whether the EU has benefitted them. Who am I or you to argue?

"The cost of imports and raw materials has risen sharply and inflation is rising fast and interest rates will have to rise in response." - Inflation is set to fall back in spring. And if the the pounds value reamins at its current level, and imports do become more expensive. It could encourage the sourcing and manufacturing of UK replacements! Also, you're basing the future on existing trade deals and tarrifs. Once we're free of the EU, we will be able to arrange more benefical deals with suplliers from all over the globe. Many have already expressed keen interest in doing just that! Lots of positives there! And remember, I think Im right in saying, that around 80% of businesses have no business out side the UK. To them, concerns about import costs are irrelevant.

"Blaming all our ills on EU membership is wrong, as is the belief that leaving will cure them all. - I dont, and I dont believe it will.

"the fault of successive governments than the result of our EU membership." - Successive governments have been wedded to EU membership. Unwilling to think beyond it.

"the impact of domestic politics, the complexity of the modern world and the way that business works." - I dont underestimate the impact of domestic politics. However, I trust democracy more than politicians. I think the fact that we can boot out our goverments is vital. Unfortunately, with govenment, comes bureaucracy. So why create a whole tier but on an even grander scale in the EU. And remember this. When EU commissioners are appointed they swear an oath of allegience,

“I do solemnly undertake: to be completely independent in the performance of my duties, in the general interest of the Communities; in the performance of these duties, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other body”.

In other words, they are explicitly supposed to be acting for the good of the whole of the EU, not just their respective countries. I want to be able to vote for and sack politicains whose loyalties are to the UK only. Not to a supranational body that may or may not have Britains interests at heart.

"I suggest that things would have been a whole lot worse if we had not been members of the EU." I think your wrong Aggi. We've had 40 odd years to see how things have panned out. 17,400,000 Britons have made their mind up, about life INSIDE the EU. We havent, yet, had 5 minutes to compare what the UK will be like OUTSIDE.

fair play to ringo for this post.

nice to see him engage in actual sensible debate rather then the copy and paste soundbites and slogans which are his norm.

[quoonbeatz]

I didn't say that did I?

pretty much, yes, but that seems to be your attitude to a lot of things. 'oh well, its happened before so **** it.'

[Tall Paul]

Brexit could help boost the prospects of manufacturing and therefore the prospects for many many towns like Burnley. How? by the UK being free to make its all mutually beneficail trade deals all around the globe. Stop being a bit myopic, and Little Europeaneresque. Theres a whole world out there.

We're leaving the biggest free trade bloc in the world and you think that'll help our trading propects?

[Lancasterclaret]

FWIW Lancaster, as I fall into generation Y, who has been nailed by the ridiculous property market, won't have a decent protected pension and haven't had the cake without working for it. How does that suit your narrative or what your painting of my generation?

So why then are you saying stuff that only the older generation say?

If you are my generation (40-50) then you've had all the benefits but none of the disadvantages. I think thats not fair on the next generations, and will vote to make sure they have the same chances that I had.

You won't. Thats up to you but IMHO its not a good look if you are trying to sell your vision of Brexit to the young.

[CrosspoolClarets]

”If remain had won narrowly a true leader would have left anyway”!?!? Is that what passes for democracy in your mind?

Or, y’know, a believer in parliamentary sovereignty and “taking back control”.

So if Leave had narrowly lost, how would their views be taken into account?

Y’know, the way remain supporters now claim THEIR views must be taken into account.

As for the parliamentary sovereignty bit, I think we all know that the PEOPLE are sovereign in a democracy, and we delegate that sovereignty to parliament in essence, UNLESS there has been a referendum, in which case we take it back (not legally, but certainly morally). That’s the reason we have rare referendums, because Parliament decide an issue is too complex for them to decide on our behalf. I have no problem with MPs voting whichever way they choose (or are whipped to). I have a problem when they are deliberately ignoring the expressed will of the people in a referendum. That’s what’s happening. A cynical ploy. We all see it,

[Sidney1st]

pretty much, yes, but that seems to be your attitude to a lot of things. 'oh well, its happened before so **** it.'

Nope, not this time, but good effort...

[Sidney1st]

There's been a lot of this recently. The land of milk and honey predictions have been downgraded to "we might all die but nobody can be 100% sure"

It won't be milk and honey either, it's going to need a fair amount of work to ensure that a Brexit works for the UK.

I don't know which party is the best one to deliver it either, ideally they'd work together on certain things but we all know that won't happen.