More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[Damo]

I'd go back to looking at the lune
Your view of rational is badly obscured

[Chip Harrison]

The 350 million per week will be available for the democratically elected British government to spend how it likes. Once we've left.

And yet again. Another Remoaner who clearly feels he's privy to some sort of enlightened truth. A truth that, if he keeps stereotyping brexiteers with his tired old sneering, at their intelligence and belittling them cos they had the cheek to vote different to him. They will eventually capitulate to his hollier than thou loftyness and finally see the error of their "knuckle dragging" and "racist xenophobic" ways.

You lost get over it.

Err, I thought things over, studied the options and voted to leave. I am just telling you what happened near me with some voters.

Unlike you though, I don't think I won, I think the nation made a decision. No one won and no one lost.

Where's my apology big mouth?

[RingoMcCartney]

You are either deliberately misunderstanding my point or you still don't get it.
Yes - we are a net contributor, but your 350 million is, as you know, a distortion of the facts because 100 million of that NEVER goes out of the treasury, (due to the rebate that Thatcher negotiated).
Of that remaining 250 million / week, (equating to 13 billion / year), almost 5 billion comes back to the UK. Net cost is therefore 8.6 billion per annum, or 156 million / week.
So: three points
1. If we didn't send the 5 billion to the EU, (the 5 billion that comes back to us and in general goes to supporting the poorer regions / communities), where do you think it would go? Given central government's track record, do you really think that the North West would get it's fair share. If you do then, I would prepare for a shock. It's really just re-distribution of funds from Central Govt to the regions.
2.How much of the remaining 156 million / week do you think will be left over once we have to pay for all the things that are currently part of the EU budget, and will be required - as is acknowledged by the govt. - post brexit.
3. What will it cost the economy if we don't secure a free trade deal with the EU, and in order to secure this deal how much do you think it will cost us per year for access to the Single Market etc?. (There might be a clue if you look at what Norway pay).
350 / week for the NHS doesn't seem v likely does it?

I'm not deliberately misunderstandings your point.

1 you admit that we are in fact, NET CONTRIBUTORS.

2 it's our money coming back.

3 if a government refuses to spend money on poorer regions like ours. Guess what!!!!!!!!!!??? We elect one that will. It's called democracy! As a Remoaner I know it's something you refuse to accept. But hey. Tough ****.

[Lancasterclaret]

No it isn't Damo

You look at his post and see its all wrong.

Believe it or not, I look at the posts on here rationally, be that Burnley related, or Brexit, or whatever.

I'm open to be convinced about the benefits of Brexit for example, but no one is giving me one that stands up to RATIONAL scrutiny.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo,

Both sides lied through there teeth and used fear to try and motivate people to support them. Unfortunately that seems to have become the standard tactic in most British elections that I can remember (with the possible exception of the most recent where the Labour party actually pushed its own policies unlike the Tories who only seemed interested in slagging of JC and predicting Armageddon in the form totalitarian communist state if he was elected).

Back to the point, do you really believe the promises that Brexiters made. Do you genuinely believe that the average person in the UK will be better off after Brexit and in what way? The only reason the many Tories and businessmen wanted out of the EU is because they recognise that it is left leaning and holds back their monetary policies, aka make as much money as you can and keep it to yourself.

Any monies saved as a result of Brexit will not benefit the average person or the NHS/schools etc. it will be used to line the pockets of the rich and shareholders. History teaches us this.

Sure, you may feel better for a while but in reality what will you actually get? Do you expect to see your standard of living rise, more houses to be built, improvements in NHS services , better schools? If you do then you really have fallen for the big lie.

"Back to the point, do you really believe the promises that Brexiters made. Do you genuinely believe that the average person in the UK will be better off after Brexit and in what way"

Yes.

Remoaners claim that -

"Uncontrolled mass immigration has not had a downward effect on British workers pay packets."

Simultaneously they claim-

"If we cannot get the EU workers we need it'll force prices up. Cos we'll be forced to pay more"

The ex chairman of marks n spencers admitted that having a smaller pool of cheap labour to draw from, would inevitably force wages UP.

[nil_desperandum]

I'm not deliberately misunderstandings your point.

1 you admit that we are in fact, NET CONTRIBUTORS.

2 it's our money coming back.

3 if a government refuses to spend money on poorer regions like ours. Guess what!!!!!!!!!!??? We elect one that will. It's called democracy! As a Remoaner I know it's something you refuse to accept. But hey. Tough ****.

And what sort of democracy do we live in where the vast majority of constituencies are "safe seats" in the discredited FPTP system?.
People living in poorer regions / communities can vote for a change of govt / system in perpetuity, but so long as the govt find a way of clinging onto their safe seats, (+ a few more) and hanging onto power, then my vote counts for nothing.
The latest examples of this being the Tory / Liberal Coalition, the EU referendum (only called in order to protect the Tories from UKip), and now the the shabby deal with the extremist DUP.

[RingoMcCartney]

Err, I thought things over, studied the options and voted to leave. I am just telling you what happened near me with some voters.

Unlike you though, I don't think I won, I think the nation made a decision. No one won and no one lost.

Where's my apology big mouth?

I'll apologise if there was something to say sorry for.

As for "no one won"

Leave got over a million more votes than Remain.

If we get more goals than arsenal on Sunday. It means we won.


It's not difficult mate.

[Lancasterclaret]

This fascination that you have linking a one off football match that everyone forgets about for the one a week later and a countrywide changing once every 40 years referendum never ceases to amaze Ringo.

[Inchy]

Ringo,

Both sides lied through there teeth and used fear to try and motivate people to support them. Unfortunately that seems to have become the standard tactic in most British elections that I can remember (with the possible exception of the most recent where the Labour party actually pushed its own policies unlike the Tories who only seemed interested in slagging of JC and predicting Armageddon in the form totalitarian communist state if he was elected).

Back to the point, do you really believe the promises that Brexiters made. Do you genuinely believe that the average person in the UK will be better off after Brexit and in what way? The only reason the many Tories and businessmen wanted out of the EU is because they recognise that it is left leaning and holds back their monetary policies, aka make as much money as you can and keep it to yourself.

Any monies saved as a result of Brexit will not benefit the average person or the NHS/schools etc. it will be used to line the pockets of the rich and shareholders. History teaches us this.

Sure, you may feel better for a while but in reality what will you actually get? Do you expect to see your standard of living rise, more houses to be built, improvements in NHS services , better schools? If you do then you really have fallen for the big lie.

What does he actually get?

The chance to say you lost, I won

[RingoMcCartney]

And what sort of democracy do we live in where the vast majority of constituencies are "safe seats" in the discredited FPTP system?.
People living in poorer regions / communities can vote for a change of govt / system in perpetuity, but so long as the govt find a way of clinging onto their safe seats, (+ a few more) and hanging onto power, then my vote counts for nothing.
The latest examples of this being the Tory / Liberal Coalition, the EU referendum (only called in order to protect the Tories from UKip), and now the the shabby deal with the extremist DUP.

You clearly don't approve of democracy....

Like I said. If a government refuses to spend on the north. And stubbornly carries on with HS2. And enough folk disapprove. They'll be DEMOCRSTICALLY kicked out thru the ballot box.

Move on.

[RingoMcCartney]

This fascination that you have linking a one off football match that everyone forgets about for the one a week later and a countrywide changing once every 40 years referendum never ceases to amaze Ringo.

When the concept of winners and losers is apparently so unfathomable to some. It's best to go on safe common ground to explsin.

Using the football analogy.

Remoaners are like the bloke in the pub after a defeat, still banging on about the ref not giving that "blatant penalty" that could have made all the difference.

Every one else just thinks "get over it pal".

[nil_desperandum]

If we get more goals than arsenal on Sunday. It means we won.


It's not difficult mate.

Good point clearly made Ringo.
If we score more than Arsenal on Sunday we will indeed win - on the day.
But this doesn't mean to say that we will finish above them and qualify for the Champions League.
Winning a one-off vote doesn't just put all our society's problems behind us, and guarantee a better future for all, and that's why sensible people don't talk in terms of "win" or "lose".
At present it doesn't look like there will be many winners, but we can only judge that in about 25 years.
Problem is that in the interim period a lot of people are in for a very tough time, and if there is to be a brexit dividend for Burnley, then I doubt that a lot of those who voted for it will still be around to see it.

[RingoMcCartney]

Good point clearly made Ringo.
If we score more than Arsenal on Sunday we will indeed win - on the day.
But this doesn't mean to say that we will finish above them and qualify for the Champions League.
Winning a one-off vote doesn't just put all our society's problems behind us, and guarantee a better future for all, and that's why sensible people don't talk in terms of "win" or "lose".
At present it doesn't look like there will be many winners, but we can only judge that in about 25 years.
Problem is that in the interim period a lot of people are in for a very tough time, and if there is to be a brexit dividend for Burnley, then I doubt that a lot of those who voted for it will still be around to see it.

" I doubt that a lot of those who voted for it will still be around to see it."

Don't worry I'm sure you'll be still around happy to remind your diminishing gaggle of Remoaners just how bad things are. And how so much rosier things could've have been!

Years and years of shouting "bring out yet dead"

The long winter evenings are simply gonna fly by

[quoonbeatz]

the irony of roger continually telling people to move on and get over it.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Just a quick one Ringo. Did you believe everything the people behind the Leave Campaign told you?

[Chip Harrison]

I'll apologise if there was something to say sorry for.

As for "no one won"

Leave got over a million more votes than Remain.

If we get more goals than arsenal on Sunday. It means we won.


It's not difficult mate.

I'm not your mate, and stop saying remain voters think those that voted leave are thick, as your spelling and grammar aid that cause.

[RingoMcCartney]

Just a quick one Ringo. Did you believe everything the people behind the Leave Campaign told you?

No.

Did you fall for the Remain sides Opration B.S.?!

Come on you can tell me.....

[RingoMcCartney]

I'm not your mate, and stop saying remain voters think those that voted leave are thick, as your spelling and grammar aid that cause.

Ok pal I'll stop it now.

[Inchy]

When I voted for Labour at the last election I didn't feel like I had personally lost. Its a bit like when I voted for Gareth Gates to win Pop Stars. I didn't lose, Gates did. I didn't lose, Labour/Corbyn did, I didn't lose, remain did.


If Burnley lose against Arsenal I don't lose, Burnley FC do.


The real winners and losers of any democratic vote will be those most negatively effected. I have not been negatively affected by brexit yet. But in the months and years to come we will see the real winners and losers


I hope that's the case anyway because there is a trend here. Gates, Labour, remain!

[aggi]

diminishing gaggle of Remoaners

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i ... ou-vote-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dsr]

We could have a lengthy debate about this, but actually , as often as not,it does work like that. A simple majority of those voting for change in a referendum isn't usually enough. Very often it has to be (e.g.) 60% or 65% of those who actually vote, or some other mathematical formula. I could find you numerous examples of this.
However, the argument isn't who "won" the referendum - to use a rather unfortunate term, (since there are no winners), but whether the majority of the country are in favour of Brexit, and more specifically a "hard" brexit.
As was pointed out, only 37.5 of those eligible to vote supported leave. The rest either voted against, or genuinely couldn't make up their minds based on the information / misinformation available to them.
Then there were the 3 million who vote in other elections, who were not allowed to vote in the referendum, and a large number of ex-pats, (who perhaps will be most affected), who similarly were excluded.
When you then factor in that over 1.5 million young people have joined the electoral register since the referendum, and many more are now eligible, it's pretty clear that the majority of the country do not favour the type of "hard" brexit that the extreme right, (such as Dyson and Redwood) and some of the poorer communities are demanding.

If you argue that 60% ought to be the benchmark to make the decision, then you're certainly arguing (unwittingly) to come out. Remember that (just like the original EEC vote) the referendum was called after the fact of joining. So this was the first referendum we had ever had on joining the political union - and only 48% voted in favour. A long, long way below the 60% or 65% you cite.

Another thing I would dispute - non-voters aren't restricted solely (or even mainly) to the people who can't make up their minds. The majority of them, I reckon, are "don't cares" rather than "don't knows". And I certainly don't want votes like this to be decided by people that don't want to vote - you might as well toss a coin.

Why would ex-pats get a vote, and why would they be the most affected? If you live in the UK, you're leaving the EU. If you live in the EU, you're not leaving. Leaving the EU has more of an effect that not leaving. Unless you reckon the EU really will do an 'ethnic cleanse' and send them all 'home'?

Remember, as well as younger people joining the electorate, that every other survivor has got older. They may have changed their minds.

[Bordeauxclaret]

No.

Did you fall for the Remain sides Opration B.S.?!

Come on you can tell me.....

That’s good to know. With the way you bang on about the way remain voters believed everything they were told i was wondering if it was based on your own experience.

I can tell you Ringo, no of course not. Much like I didn’t believe a lot of what the Labour Party told me this year.

[Imploding Turtle]

I wonder if it's escaped Ringo's attention that already because of Brexit we've dropped to 6th in terms of largest economy because of the referendumb result.

[RingoMcCartney]

That’s good to know. With the way you bang on about the way remain voters believed everything they were told i was wondering if it was based on your own experience.

I can tell you Ringo, no of course not. Much like I didn’t believe a lot of what the Labour Party told me this year.

Happy days!!

[RingoMcCartney]

When I voted for Labour at the last election I didn't feel like I had personally lost. Its a bit like when I voted for Gareth Gates to win Pop Stars. I didn't lose, Gates did. I didn't lose, Labour/Corbyn did, I didn't lose, remain did.


If Burnley lose against Arsenal I don't lose, Burnley FC do.


The real winners and losers of any democratic vote will be those most negatively effected. I have not been negatively affected by brexit yet. But in the months and years to come we will see the real winners and losers


I hope that's the case anyway because there is a trend here. Gates, Labour, remain!

The British people have had 40 odd years to decide whether EU membership has been beneficial. The majority decided not. That's why we're leaving.

Also, in the original 1975 referndum. The vast majority of under 25s voted to JOIN the EEC. They've had the benefit of hindsight and 65 year olds can see the direction of travel for the last 40 odd years. They voted out second time around.

[Imploding Turtle]

The British people have had 40 odd years to decide whether EU membership has been beneficial. The majority decided not. That's why we're leaving.

Also, in the original 1975 referndum. The vast majority of under 25s voted to JOIN the EEC. They've had the benefit of hindsight and can see the direction of travel for the last 40 odd years. They voted out second time around.

I believe you've made that under 25 fact up. Provide a source please.

[RingoMcCartney]

I believe you've made that under 25 fact up. Provide a source please.

I don't engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....

[Imploding Turtle]

I don't engage with idiots as I find they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....

So, you don't have a source. You just fabricated a fact to support your argument, is that right?

And it's time to update the count. https://i.imgur.com/pv8uI9k.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

So, you don't have a source. You just fabricated a fact to support your argument, is that right?

See post 227....

[RingoMcCartney]

So, you don't have a source. You just fabricated a fact to support your argument, is that right?

And it's time to update the count. https://i.imgur.com/pv8uI9k.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just need you to scurry round in the turtle bunker and find a graph that shows I'm wrong. And you will have fallen into the trap perfectly.

In you're own time graph chimp!

[Imploding Turtle]

Just need you to scurry round in the turtle bunker and find a graph that shows I'm wrong. And you will have fallen into the trap perfectly.

In you're own time graph chimp!

You made the claim. It's up to you to prove you haven't just completely made it up.

[nil_desperandum]

If you argue that 60% ought to be the benchmark to make the decision, then you're certainly arguing (unwittingly) to come out. Remember that (just like the original EEC vote) the referendum was called after the fact of joining. So this was the first referendum we had ever had on joining the political union - and only 48% voted in favour. A long, long way below the 60% or 65% you cite.

Another thing I would dispute - non-voters aren't restricted solely (or even mainly) to the people who can't make up their minds. The majority of them, I reckon, are "don't cares" rather than "don't knows". And I certainly don't want votes like this to be decided by people that don't want to vote - you might as well toss a coin.

Why would ex-pats get a vote, and why would they be the most affected? If you live in the UK, you're leaving the EU. If you live in the EU, you're not leaving. Leaving the EU has more of an effect that not leaving. Unless you reckon the EU really will do an 'ethnic cleanse' and send them all 'home'?

Remember, as well as younger people joining the electorate, that every other survivor has got older. They may have changed their minds.

Briefly:
I don't really understand your first point.If you are referring to the 2016 referendum then the referendum was clearly NOT about joining. We had been in for 40 years, and the question was whether we should leave. (This just scraped a majority of those who actually voted).
if you are referring to the earlier referendum in 1975, then remain took 67% of the vote.

How can you say that the majority of non-voters were "don't cares" as opposed to "don't knows"?. Do you have stats to prove this. If there had been a box on the ballot that said "don't know", then there would have been a lot of people who would have used it, because they simply did not feel adequately prepared to make an informed decision, and felt it was far too important just to flip a coin at he ballot box.

If you don't understand how this affects ex-pats, then maybe you should either do some research or stop posting.
If a million of them return to the UK as they get older in order to access free health care then you'll understand. However, the problem is that for many of them they are no longer entitled to come back to the UK for treatment, and could find themselves with no free access to treatment anywhere depending on what sort of deal we can make.
(That's just one of many issues that could potentially impact ex-pats).
Of course the EU wouldn't "ethnically cleanse" them, but they would no longer be EU citizens unless some deal is reached, so would not enjoy the rights they currently have.

[Lancasterclaret]

He's yanking your chain here IT

He's got his beliefs and ideas about stuff like this, and you are not going to shake him on it.

[Bacchus]

This fascination that you have linking a one off football match that everyone forgets about for the one a week later and a countrywide changing once every 40 years referendum never ceases to amaze Ringo.

That's the level he has to go to because he doesn't like or understand facts, figures or experts. If you simplify a process with massive geopolitical, economic, legal and social consequences by equating it to a football match you get to run around shouting "I won, you lost." In fairness, my 5 year old uses a similar logic and it keeps him happy too, so it's probably best just to leave him to it.

[Imploding Turtle]

He's yanking your chain here IT

He's got his beliefs and ideas about stuff like this, and you are not going to shake him on it.

I know. But i can expose him as a liar if he can't demonstrate that he didn't fabricate a fact to support his argument.

It's why you'll see me ask people to provide evidence a lot of the time. Sometimes because i've genuinely interested, but most of the time it's because i'm confident they've made something up and so they can't provide a source.

[RingoMcCartney]

You made the claim. It's up to you to prove you haven't just completely made it up.

Come on I'm nearly there!

Surely with all those computers and research facilities at your disposal you can do a search for "age spread of voters in 1975 referendum"

Come on! I'm almost doing you're 24/7 work for you!

[Imploding Turtle]

Come on I'm nearly there!

Surely with all those computers and research facilities at your disposal you can do a search for "age spread of voters in 1975 referendum"

Come on! I'm almost doing you're 24/7 work for you!

I did. That's why i'm confident in my belief that you made it up.

[RingoMcCartney]

That's the level he has to go to because he doesn't like or understand facts, figures or experts. If you simplify a process with massive geopolitical, economic, legal and social consequences by equating it to a football match you get to run around shouting "I won, you lost." In fairness, my 5 year old uses a similar logic and it keeps him happy too, so it's probably best just to leave him to it.

If there wasn't a winning side in the referendum.

Why is the UK leaving the European Union?

[RingoMcCartney]

I did. That's why i'm confident in my belief that you made it up.

So surely you'd love to provide us with your findings in your favourite form. Namely a graph!!!

[Imploding Turtle]

So surely you'd love to provide us with your findings in your favourite form. Namely a graph!!!

Or you could just admit that you lied to support your opinion.

[RingoMcCartney]

Or you could just admit that you lied to support your opinion.

You're not going to do it are you! A golden opportunity to prove old Ringo wrong! It's an open goal!

Come on graph chimp! This must be torture on the turtle bunker!

You've got the graph. Just press "send!"

[Tall Paul]

Doing a good job of not engaging with IT here, RIngo.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I'm not your mate, and stop saying remain voters think those that voted leave are thick, as your spelling and grammar aid that cause.

Voting Leave isn’t the reason people think Ringo is thick to be fair.

[SammyBoy]

Whether it's leave, remain, Labour or Tory lets just take a moment to consider that somebody, somewhere is possibly married to Ringo, or if that's too much of a stretch he at least probably has a next door neighbour, or some sort of pet. Therefore, I invite everybody on UTC to take a break from their busy day and join me in a quiet collective moment of contemplation and appreciation that I only know him as his online moniker.

[hampsteadclaret]

RM...you must have one thick skin and little ability for self reflection.

Back up your earlier stupid unwarranted unsourced claim about 'voter ages' or button up - you are making a fool of yourself.

[RingoMcCartney]

Or you could just admit that you lied to support your opinion.

Well well.

The UTC graph chimp turns down a chance to prove me wrong AND produce a graph!

You see turtles head. Look at post 21 in this thread. I point out that you were conspicuous by your absence. And wasn't it the case that you never let the opportunity of producing a self loathing anti brexit graph pass. But remained some what reticent when it came to providing graphs when it was excellent news.

I noticed you'd given a "like" to a post and knew you'd come out turtle slumber after no doubt being up all night supplying graphs all over the web. So I dropped in the "false" claim to smoke you out of the turtle bunker. (Do you genuinely think I hadn't already checked the age split of voters in the 1975 referendum!!!!!!)

And it worked a treat!

After remaining, relatively silent, and graph-free on a good news thread you were in!!

Shouldve waited a little longer and I'm sure the pie charts would have been flowing !!

[RingoMcCartney]

RM...you must have one thick skin and little ability for self reflection.

Back up your earlier stupid unwarranted unsourced claim about 'voter ages' or button up - you are making a fool of yourself.

That was a very brief exile!

[dsr]

Briefly:
I don't really understand your first point.If you are referring to the 2016 referendum then the referendum was clearly NOT about joining. We had been in for 40 years, and the question was whether we should leave. (This just scraped a majority of those who actually voted).
if you are referring to the earlier referendum in 1975, then remain took 67% of the vote.

How can you say that the majority of non-voters were "don't cares" as opposed to "don't knows"?. Do you have stats to prove this. If there had been a box on the ballot that said "don't know", then there would have been a lot of people who would have used it, because they simply did not feel adequately prepared to make an informed decision, and felt it was far too important just to flip a coin at he ballot box.

If you don't understand how this affects ex-pats, then maybe you should either do some research or stop posting.
If a million of them return to the UK as they get older in order to access free health care then you'll understand. However, the problem is that for many of them they are no longer entitled to come back to the UK for treatment, and could find themselves with no free access to treatment anywhere depending on what sort of deal we can make.
(That's just one of many issues that could potentially impact ex-pats).
Of course the EU wouldn't "ethnically cleanse" them, but they would no longer be EU citizens unless some deal is reached, so would not enjoy the rights they currently have.

The EEC was a very different organisation from the EU. The EU is a successor, not just the same thing tweaked a bit. Specifically, the EU is a political union. We could and should have had a referendum about joining the EU, but we didn't get it until now.

I don't have stats to prove that the non-voters are "don't cares"; I suspect you don't either. But election after election, including referendums, 25% and more of the electorate don't vote. The chances of all or most of these people being political thinkers who can't make up their mind is remote - far more likely, in my view, is that they are political non-thinkers who can't be bothered.

[RingoMcCartney]

Whether it's leave, remain, Labour or Tory lets just take a moment to consider that somebody, somewhere is possibly married to Ringo, or if that's too much of a stretch he at least probably has a next door neighbour, or some sort of pet. Therefore, I invite everybody on UTC to take a break from their busy day and join me in a quiet collective moment of contemplation and appreciation that I only know him as his online moniker.

Fair one!

[aggi]

Ringo's technique of arguing is make an unfounded claim.

If people ask him where he got it from he'll say prove that I'm wrong.

Obviously proving a negative can be awkward but fairly often evidence will be provided that he's wrong. He'll then dismiss the evidence on the basis that it doesn't fit his very specific criteria (or just ignore it). Sometimes he'll use CAPITALS to reinforce his point because they're better than facts.

Evidence-based debate isn't really his forte. He's been proven factually wrong a couple of times on this page alone and he just carries on regardless