Labour betray their leave voters..

[Lancasterclaret]

They wouldn't go on strike full stop, for either his reason or yours.

Public sector might, but private? No chance.

[aggi]

I was quite amused by Tom Watson's response:

Mr Watson said: “Well, it’s not particularly helpful, but she is a new MP and she was at a big fringe event – nothing to do with the party organisation – and I’m sure she got a little bit carried away.”

There's an MP who will clearly be getting a rollicking later on

[nil_desperandum]

And now theyre calling for a general strike to bring down our democratically elected government.

Since when has this been Labour Party policy? Have I missed something.
Due to their nature you get all sorts of barmy ideas presented at Party Conferences. Just wait till next week if you don't believe me, there'll be all sorts of individuals coming out with eccentric ideas. You can't sell something as a Party's policy, when it's just one person's speech or the views of a small minority.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah, if you think the Labour fringe events are a hoot, wait till the Conservatives one next week.

[RingoMcCartney]

Laura Smith.

Chosen by Labour from a women ONLY short list.

"I am what I am and that is representative of millions of women in Britain"

The Labour Party - 50% of the population do not exist.

[RingoMcCartney]

Since when has this been Labour Party policy? Have I missed something.
Due to their nature you get all sorts of barmy ideas presented at Party Conferences. Just wait till next week if you don't believe me, there'll be all sorts of individuals coming out with eccentric ideas. You can't sell something as a Party's policy, when it's just one person's speech or the views of a small minority.

I said "they're calling for a general strike to bring down our democratically elected government."

You even conveniently used my direct quotation!!!!

Just point me to where I said it , " has been Labour Party policy " to quote YOU directly.

Like I say, thanks for using my quote though.

You're the king of pedantry, nit picking and splitting hairs.

Have a taste of your own medicine.

[nil_desperandum]

I said "they're calling for a general strike to bring down our democratically elected government."

You even conveniently used my direct quotation!!!!

Just point me to where I said it , " has been Labour Party policy " to quote YOU directly.

Like I say, thanks for using my quote though.

You're the king of pedantry, nit picking and splitting hairs.

Have a taste of your own medicine.

The clue's in the word "they're" as opposed to one MP. Got it now? Fine.

[dsr]

They wouldn't go on strike outside of the public sector for the simple reason being that they would be risking their jobs and security.

They wouldn't give two ***** about the democratic elected government to be honest, they'd be thinking about their jobs.

Even if jobs were cast irn safe, it would still be (for most people) not matter of "I didn't like the election result so I'll go on strike to bring down the government", more a matter of "I didn't like the election result, but that's democracy".

[RingoMcCartney]

The clue's in the word "they're" as opposed to one MP. Got it now? Fine.

Here comes the oh so grindingly predictable nit picking!!!

She did not make the speach in a room on her own.

And she was applauded , on his feet, Richard Burgon Shadow Secretary of State for Justice and Shadow Lord Chancellor.


But for the 2nd time I'll throw the pedantry right back at you.

WHERE DID I SAY IT " HAS BEEN LABOUR PARTY POLICY"?


Now I hope you're not showing signs of Lancaster Claretitus and unable to admit you're wrong. But I'm not to fussed or interested in finding out. So you get yourself down the familiar rabbit hole of pedantry. It'll give you plenty of time to find where I said it was "Labour party policy" A clue is in the fact I didn't say it. Get it

Good luck

[summitclaret]

I was quite amused by Tom Watson's response:

Mr Watson said: “Well, it’s not particularly helpful, but she is a new MP and she was at a big fringe event – nothing to do with the party organisation – and I’m sure she got a little bit carried away.”

There's an MP who will clearly be getting a rollicking later on

Presume you mean Tom Watson. Smiley.

[AndrewJB]

"Comrades, we must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can.

“And if we can’t get a general election we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade union [movement] to bring an end to this government with a general strike.”

There's nothing like democracy.

And that's NOTHING LIKE DEMOCRACY

You find this scandalous, and undemocratic. The right do this all the time. Rich people line up to say they'll disinvest if Labour come to power. They even did that before Blair was elected. That's using their economic clout to try to bring down a democratically elected government. Or to make a direct parallel, Capital going on strike.

[aggi]

You find this scandalous, and undemocratic. The right do this all the time. Rich people line up to say they'll disinvest if Labour come to power. They even did that before Blair was elected. That's using their economic clout to try to bring down a democratically elected government. Or to make a direct parallel, Capital going on strike.

And Paul Daniels still didn't leave https://www.independent.co.uk/news/dani ... 55109.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RingoMcCartney]

You find this scandalous, and undemocratic. The right do this all the time. Rich people line up to say they'll disinvest if Labour come to power. They even did that before Blair was elected. That's using their economic clout to try to bring down a democratically elected government. Or to make a direct parallel, Capital going on strike.

Aah. The old " 2 wrongs make a right" technique of defending the indefensible!

[Lancasterclaret]

No implicit mentioning of a second referendum, just "all options are on the table"

Lab brexit policy a bit clearer though, as long as we have a customs union (or similar) they would vote for a Conservative deal.

Which is actually not the worst deal in the world*

*though of course, still worse than we have now!

[AndrewJB]

Aah. The old " 2 wrongs make a right" technique of defending the indefensible!

I didn't say either was 'indefensible' People have the right to strike just as much as they have the right to withhold investment. Government has the right to legislate workers back to work, just as it has the right to legislate to freeze or seize assets.

Democracy isn't ever 'decided' but is always in flux. Stability is preferable, but we don't have that right now. When you have a government that has run out of ideas, that is fractured, and that is clinging to power regardless, then a little 'push' from the people is in itself a democratic act. Assuming it leads to a general election, then you could say it's very democratic.

[dsr]

Democracy isn't ever 'decided' but is always in flux. Stability is preferable, but we don't have that right now. When you have a government that has run out of ideas, that is fractured, and that is clinging to power regardless, then a little 'push' from the people is in itself a democratic act. Assuming it leads to a general election, then you could say it's very democratic.

The trades unions aren't "the people".

[CrosspoolClarets]

*though of course, still worse than we have now!

Agreed.


* though caveated with the possibly futile hope that “a” Custom Union, rather than “the” Customs Union, may not cover all goods, leaving the U.K. free to set their own tariffs and strike trade deals in some sectors (not cars obviously). I live in hope, but not expectation.

[Lancasterclaret]

And its a better deal than the one that you were on about the other day!

There is plenty of scope for a more gradual withdrawal from the EU, but we can't crash out without a deal.

We need something that isn't that, whatever it is!

[AndrewJB]

The trades unions aren't "the people".

You're reading into my post something I didn't say.

[Greenmile]

The trades unions aren't "the people".

They're made up of people though, aren't they?

[RingoMcCartney]

I didn't say either was 'indefensible' People have the right to strike just as much as they have the right to withhold investment. Government has the right to legislate workers back to work, just as it has the right to legislate to freeze or seize assets.

Democracy isn't ever 'decided' but is always in flux. Stability is preferable, but we don't have that right now. When you have a government that has run out of ideas, that is fractured, and that is clinging to power regardless, then a little 'push' from the people is in itself a democratic act. Assuming it leads to a general election, then you could say it's very democratic.

"When you have a government that has run out of ideas, that is fractured, and that is clinging to power regardless, then a little 'push' from the people is in itself a democratic act. "

There is an alternative to not collecting rubbish for weeks, to not burying the dead, to power supply outages and cuts, to the national transport network being ground to a halt and the whole nation brought to its knees by this " little push "

It's something that you don't appear to be over familiar with.

THE BALLOT BOX.............

[AndrewJB]

"When you have a government that has run out of ideas, that is fractured, and that is clinging to power regardless, then a little 'push' from the people is in itself a democratic act. "

There is an alternative to not collecting rubbish for weeks, to not burying the dead, to power supply outages and cuts, to the national transport network being ground to a halt and the whole nation brought to its knees by this " little push "

It's something that you don't appear to be over familiar with.

THE BALLOT BOX.............

You could have saved yourself the trouble and said: "I agree with you, Andrew. A general election is what we need"

[RingoMcCartney]

You could have saved yourself the trouble and said: "I agree with you, Andrew. A general election is what we need"

Why would I?

I don't agree with you Andrew.

[Jakubclaret]

You could have saved yourself the trouble and said: "I agree with you, Andrew. A general election is what we need"

The last thing this country needs right now is a GE we can't even agree on the best course of action regarding brexit, most of the remainers are confused & think a GE will be the saviour, whatever future government waits any people's vote/2nd referendum won't be a forgone conclusion, despite assurances in manifestos.

[AndrewJB]

Why would I?

I don't agree with you Andrew.

My post ended with the desire for a general election. Your's with "the ballot box" I guess democracy only suits you when you want it.

[JohnMcGreal]

There is an alternative to not collecting rubbish for weeks, to not burying the dead, to power supply outages and cuts, to the national transport network being ground to a halt and the whole nation brought to its knees by this " little push "

It's something that you don't appear to be over familiar with.

THE BALLOT BOX.............

LOL @ Ringo's sudden aversion to chaos and instability.

[RingoMcCartney]

My post ended with the desire for a general election. Your's with "the ballot box" I guess democracy only suits you when you want it.

I think you should use the ballot box when the opportunity has been brought about by the parliamentary democratic process.

You clearly want to use it when the country has been brought to its knees thanks to a general strike!

The only form of "democracy" you approve of is that brought about when the TRUE democratic process doesn't give you the answer you want!

DEMOCRACY - IT MEANS SOMETIMES YOU LOSE

[RingoMcCartney]

LOL @ Ringo's sudden aversion to John's IMAGINED chaos and instability.

there sorted for you macca!

Just out of interest John. Do you agree with Laura Smith Labour MP when she declares to, an easily roused, far left audience-

"Comrades, we must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can.

“And if we can’t get a general election we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade union [movement] to bring an end to this government with a general strike.”

Do you have a laissez faire attitude to the rat ridden rubbish not being collected for weeks, to not burying the dead, to power supply outages and cuts, to the national transport network being ground to a halt and the whole nation brought to its knees. That a general strike would bring.

Or are you a democrat.

Yes or no?

[JohnMcGreal]

there sorted for you macca!

Just out of interest John. Do you agree with Laura Smith Labour MP when she declares to, an easily roused, far left audience-

"Comrades, we must topple this cruel and callous Tory government as soon as we can.

“And if we can’t get a general election we should organise with our brothers and sisters in the trade union [movement] to bring an end to this government with a general strike.”

Do you have a laissez faire attitude to the rat ridden rubbish not being collected for weeks, to not burying the dead, to power supply outages and cuts, to the national transport network being ground to a halt and the whole nation brought to its knees. That a general strike would bring.

Or are you a democrat.

Yes or no?

I’m a democrat, and I’m not in favour of a general strike as a means to gaining power. Labour need to win people over with their policy ideas, and I think they are doing that. They’ve got some very good policies, far more progressive than what the Conservatives are offering. Their undoing is the unpopularity of Corbyn amongst ‘centrists’, and unless he can win a good number of them over, he won’t be leading Labour to an election victory any time soon, not with a majority at least.

So of course I’m against rubbish piling up, bodies not being buried and the lights going out, just like I’m against food and medicine shortages, planes not being able to fly and massive backlogs at our ports.

I’m consistent in my view that chaos and instability is undesirable. You’re inconsistent, as you’ll happily accept chaos and instability to deliver what you want (Brexit) but you won’t accept it to deliver something you don’t want (a Corbyn government).

You can’t rant and rave like a madman for 2.5+ years about how it’s fine for the UK to basically fall out of every legal framework and treaty, and to cut ourselves off from our biggest market and everything will be hunky dory, but then spit feathers about how a Labour government might bring chaos to the country. Can you not see how insane that is?

If we leave the EU without a deal, it will make the 1970’s look like a cakewalk.

[RingoMcCartney]

I’m a democrat, and I’m not in favour of a general strike as a means to gaining power. Labour need to win people over with their policy ideas, and I think they are doing that. They’ve got some very good policies, far more progressive than what the Conservatives are offering. Their undoing is the unpopularity of Corbyn amongst ‘centrists’, and unless he can win a good number of them over, he won’t be leading Labour to an election victory any time soon, not with a majority at least.

So of course I’m against rubbish piling up, bodies not being buried and the lights going out, just like I’m against food and medicine shortages, planes not being able to fly and massive backlogs at our ports.

I’m consistent in my view that chaos and instability is undesirable. You’re inconsistent, as you’ll happily accept chaos and instability to deliver what you want (Brexit) but you won’t accept it to deliver something you don’t want (a Corbyn government).

You can’t rant and rave like a madman for 2.5+ years about how it’s fine for the UK to basically fall out of every legal framework and treaty, and to cut ourselves off from our biggest market and everything will be hunky dory, but then spit feathers about how a Labour government might bring chaos to the country. Can you not see how insane that is?

If we leave the EU without a deal, it will make the 1970’s look like a cakewalk.

So we agree on the way an election should be brought about.

We disagree on what will happen post 29 March 2019.

Fair enough John.

[tiger76]

Corbyn and Starmer in Brussels for talks with Barnier,his proposals seem more amenable to the EU,staying in the Customs Union especially.

If Theresa May really wanted to face down her back benchers this would be a viable road to go down,the alternative is parliament voting down the Chequers deal,and either extending the talks or another General Election.

It's a risky strategy for the PM and could damage the Conservatives but if she really wants a deal,and to remain in power this is feasible,the onus is then on the ERG to suggest practical alternatives or mount a leadership challenge.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45660640

[RingoMcCartney]

Corbyn and Starmer in Brussels for talks with Barnier,his proposals seem more amenable to the EU,staying in the Customs Union especially.
]

Corbyn and the odious Starmer in conspiratorial talks with the opposing side!!!!!

70 per cent of Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted to leave the European Union, and up to five million Labour voters also supported Leave.

But the Labour manifesto in 2017 was a hard Brexit manifesto. It promised to leave the European Union by “accepting the result”, and that “freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union”. By definition for freedom of movement to end, we will have to leave the single market.

This is betrayal of its Leave voters on stilts!!!

Nothing more. Nothing less. They'll be given notice of this at the ballot box......

[claretandy]

Corbyn and Starmer in Brussels for talks with Barnier,his proposals seem more amenable to the EU,staying in the Customs Union especially.

If Theresa May really wanted to face down her back benchers this would be a viable road to go down,the alternative is parliament voting down the Chequers deal,and either extending the talks or another General Election.

It's a risky strategy for the PM and could damage the Conservatives but if she really wants a deal,and to remain in power this is feasible,the onus is then on the ERG to suggest practical alternatives or mount a leadership challenge.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45660640

already been rejected by the EU as "cakeism"

http://uk.businessinsider.com/senior-eu ... icy-2018-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

up to five million Labour voters also supported Leave.

So nearly 8,000,000 didn't support leave. DEMOCRACY!

[aggi]

Corbyn and Starmer in Brussels for talks with Barnier,his proposals seem more amenable to the EU,staying in the Customs Union especially.

If Theresa May really wanted to face down her back benchers this would be a viable road to go down,the alternative is parliament voting down the Chequers deal,and either extending the talks or another General Election.

It's a risky strategy for the PM and could damage the Conservatives but if she really wants a deal,and to remain in power this is feasible,the onus is then on the ERG to suggest practical alternatives or mount a leadership challenge.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45660640

Staying in the customs union isn't compatible with the Tory red lines, the freedom to make our own trade deals. Although last I saw Labour were being (deliberately I suspect) a bit obtuse on whether they were talking about THE customs union or A customs union.

They're still playing to the crowd at the moment with the bonus that their plans will never have to be actually implemented (probably) so they have more latitude in what they propose.

[RingoMcCartney]

So nearly 8,000,000 didn't support leave. DEMOCRACY!

70 per cent of Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted to leave the European Union, and up to five million Labour voters also supported Leave.

And the spectacle of Her Majestys LOYAL opposition having duplicitous, underhand meetings with the other sides negotiators, totally undermining the British governments bargaining position is there for all voters to see.


The 8,000,000 were on the losing side.

5,000,000 were on the the winning side.

BETRAYAL!


Only 30% of labour MPs represent constituencies that voted Remain.

BETRAYAL!

UTTER METROPOLITAN BUBBLE DWELLING BETRAYAL!

[burnleymik]

70 per cent of Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted to leave the European Union, and up to five million Labour voters also supported Leave.

And the spectacle of Her Majestys LOYAL opposition having duplicitous, underhand meetings with the other sides negotiators, totally undermining the British governments bargaining position is there for all voters to see.


The 8,000,000 were on the losing side.

5,000,000 were on the the winning side.

BETRAYAL!


Only 30% of labour MPs represent constituencies that voted Remain.

BETRAYAL!

UTTER METROPOLITAN BUBBLE DWELLING BETRAYAL!

I wouldn't worry Ringo.

Once Barnier meets the Corbyn and Abbott dreamteam he will probably start backing Brexit himself!

[RingoMcCartney]

I wouldn't worry Ringo.

Once Barnier meets the Corbyn and Abbott dreamteam he will probably start backing Brexit himself!

Nice one.

Especially when he sees Abbott having to take her socks off to count above 10......

[RingoMcCartney]

Has anyone got any euros?' Embarrassing moment as Corbyn arrives for Brexit meeting with Barnier in Brussels and aides struggle to find cash to pay for his taxi.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -deal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Same old socialists.

Always running out of someone else's money!

[evensteadiereddie]

"Same old socialists" but another five pages of bashing the apparently useless, washed-up no- hopers. Odd.

[Bacchus]

Corbyn and the odious Starmer in conspiratorial talks with the opposing side!!!!!

70 per cent of Labour MPs represent constituencies that voted to leave the European Union, and up to five million Labour voters also supported Leave.

But the Labour manifesto in 2017 was a hard Brexit manifesto. It promised to leave the European Union by “accepting the result”, and that “freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union”. By definition for freedom of movement to end, we will have to leave the single market.

This is betrayal of its Leave voters on stilts!!!

Nothing more. Nothing less. They'll be given notice of this at the ballot box......

Seriously, what are you on? I'd suggest reducing the dosage a little.

Conspiratorial talks? Other side? Betrayal? You're getting more deranged by the day.

These are elected MPs, senior members of the official opposition representing close to half of the Parliament that will need to vote through whatever deal is arrived at (democracy, remember?) talking to our nearest neighbours and closest allies with the aim of arriving at that deal.

I really hope A50 is revoked, mainly because Brexit is completely insane but also because I'm curious as to whether you'd spontaneously combust.

[RingoMcCartney]

Seriously, what are you on? I'd suggest reducing the dosage a little.

Conspiratorial talks? Other side? Betrayal? You're getting more deranged by the day.

These are elected MPs, senior members of the official opposition representing close to half of the Parliament that will need to vote through whatever deal is arrived at (democracy, remember?) talking to our nearest neighbours and closest allies with the aim of arriving at that deal.

I really hope A50 is revoked, mainly because Brexit is completely insane but also because I'm curious as to whether you'd spontaneously combust.

You may not see Corbyn and the odious Starmer having talks as undermining, subversive and treasonous. I do and listening to the radio this morning, many others do.

You're correct they are indeed MPs. As MPs they were part of a democratically elected parliament who's MPs voted by a ratio of 5 to 1 to "let the People decide" in a "once in a generation" referendum.

They simply didn't get the result they expected. Now, despite only 30% of labour constituencies having voted for remain, they're undermining the democratic process AND the mandate on which they were elected. Meeting Barnier and as good as saying "Don't worry, we'll ignore the will of the British People and frustrate and thwart democracy and give you what you want"

You appear to be approving of all this and wish that " article 50 is revoked"!

Conclusion.

You're s far left extremist and one espousing the blatent suffocation of democracy.

[RingoMcCartney]

"Same old socialists" but another five pages of bashing the apparently useless, washed-up no- hopers. Odd.

I never called them that.

But if the cap fits........

[AndrewJB]

You may not see Corbyn and the odious Starmer having talks as undermining, subversive and treasonous. I do and listening to the radio this morning, many others do.

You're correct they are indeed MPs. As MPs they were part of a democratically elected parliament who's MPs voted by a ratio of 5 to 1 to "let the People decide" in a "once in a generation" referendum.

They simply didn't get the result they expected. Now, despite only 30% of labour constituencies having voted for remain, they're undermining the democratic process AND the mandate on which they were elected. Meeting Barnier and as good as saying "Don't worry, we'll ignore the will of the British People and frustrate and thwart democracy and give you what you want"

You appear to be approving of all this and wish that " article 50 is revoked"!

Conclusion.

You're s far left extremist and one espousing the blatent suffocation of democracy.

I’m with Bacchus.

[RingoMcCartney]

I’m with Bacchus.

What you do in your spare time, is entirely up to you.

[Lancasterclaret]

Nice dead cat bounce for Labour in the opinion polls

TMay's Tories move to 6% lead with YouGov
CON 42%
LAB 36%
LD 11%

[claretonthecoast1882]

Nice dead cat bounce for Labour in the opinion polls

TMay's Tories move to 6% lead with YouGov
CON 42%
LAB 36%
LD 11%

Yet still the loons are armed with their pom poms giving it Corbyn Corbyn ra ra ra

[Lancasterclaret]

Yup, they will still be singing that as Boris Johnson or JRM comes into power and dismantles the welfare state in the middle of the biggest recession for decades.

[Spijed]

I never called them that.

But if the cap fits........

Btw, why did you get banned?

[RingoMcCartney]

Btw, why did you get banned?

I didn't. The fact I'm posting this proves it.....