Muric

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Rileybobs
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Re: Muric

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:16 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:09 pm
As DA said, Muric got hammered on here for pretty much the same thing that just happened with Pope. Neither were keeper errors imo but when it was Muric, it was.

He was poor at Birmingham and I marked him as such, but I think it’s also blinkered to say he’s been like that in every game, he hasn’t. It’s fair to say it’s been a very mixed bag in terms of commanding his area.

I’ve been providing underlying data which supports the fact his shot stopping is rated as one of the top in the league, I admit data doesn’t tell you the full picture, but it’s a striking contrast to him ‘not being able to make a save’. Unsurprisingly, no one bothers with the data posts myself and others make.

And yes you suggested it was poor keeping to be in the position he was in. Therefore you were criticising his keeping which actually led to a fine save.
Did he get hammered for Bristol City’s goal? Maybe he did but I honestly can’t remember him getting the blame for that particular goal.

In terms of the stats, they certainly don’t tell you the full picture. Save percentage doesn’t take into account the difficulty of the saves, or whether they’re parried straight back to an attacker, or spilled rather than caught for example.

So I didn’t criticise his save then? Thanks for that. I said he shouldn’t have come off his line, which is a view I’ll stand by. It’s possible for a goalkeeper to make an error and then follow it up with something good - again you’re just being disingenuous.

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Re: Muric

Post by jen1066 » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:20 pm

I guess it says something, that we're going back as far as the keeper for someone to complain about. He's been involved in at least 2 goals this season and while he's suspect, he's part of who we are. You get a shot stopper like Nick Pope in and he'll hardly touch the ball.

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Re: Muric

Post by RVclaret » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:22 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:16 pm
Did he get hammered for Bristol City’s goal? Maybe he did but I honestly can’t remember him getting the blame for that particular goal.

In terms of the stats, they certainly don’t tell you the full picture. Save percentage doesn’t take into account the difficulty of the saves, or whether they’re parried straight back to an attacker, or spilled rather than caught for example.

So I didn’t criticise his save then? Thanks for that. I said he shouldn’t have come off his line, which is a view I’ll stand by. It’s possible for a goalkeeper to make an error and then follow it up with something good - again you’re just being disingenuous.
Yes many blamed him for not coming to claim it. Yet many also ‘forget’ about his excellent save on the stroke of HT in that game at 1-1.

I don’t use save percentage for the reasons you suggest. The models provided all look at xG in some form which measures the quality of chances far better. He’s one of the top performers in the league for ‘expected goals prevented’.

Well you are rather indirectly criticising the save by saying he shouldn’t have been there (when he actually made that save by being there) and I don’t think it’s being disingenuous at all.

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Re: Muric

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:28 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:10 pm
I genuinely can’t remember Muric being blamed for Bristol City’s goal, I thought the defence generally copped for that one.

Pope got criticised quite regularly if I’m not mistaken. His kicking was atrocious and I have been very critical of it. But one thing about Pope was that he very very rarely let in a soft goal, and very rarely missed a cross. Obviously the two keepers aren’t comparable in terms of quality, but it’s no surprise that one gets more criticism than the other.
On the match thread he is called a joke, that he looked lost, that he should surely have come for it, that its an example of how he is costing us points, that he's just not good enough, that we start minus a goal, he makes his defenders nervous, hes was very poor and that he failed to impose his presence all based on a goal that was no way his fault. He also came under fire by quite a few on the player rating thread. No way does Pope get that criticism if he was in the goals just as I doubt anyone on here would blame him for the Spurs goal today.

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Re: Muric

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:30 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:22 pm
Yes many blamed him for not coming to claim it. Yet many also ‘forget’ about his excellent save on the stroke of HT in that game at 1-1.

I don’t use save percentage for the reasons you suggest. The models provided all look at xG in some form which measures the quality of chances far better. He’s one of the top performers in the league for ‘expected goals prevented’.

Well you are rather indirectly criticising the save by saying he shouldn’t have been there (when he actually made that save by being there) and I don’t think it’s being disingenuous at all.
:lol: I didn’t criticise the save, I criticised him for coming off his line. If a player hit the post from an open goal and scored the rebound would you be criticising the goal by saying he should have scored the open goal? Stop being so obscure.

Fans can see with their own eyes when goalkeepers should save shots. Stats are great but I’m sure if I was inclined to do so I could find some that make Muric look like one of the worst keepers in the league. The reality is he’s probably somewhere in the middle.

Muric has let some very soft goals in this season and hasn’t saved too many that I would expect a goalkeeper at this level not to save. There are some good parts to his game, and our league position suggests he’s probably fine for where we currently are at, which is a team that tends to dominate possession and concedes few good chances. Of our first choice starting eleven he’d probably be the first player I think would need upgrading should we win promotion.

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Re: Muric

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:31 pm

taio wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:15 pm
On the player ratings thread for the game against Bristol City most posters gave Muric 7 and nobody less than 6 and there were some 8s.
As per the match thread he got a lot of blame and there were quite a few who marked him down for the goal. He got good ratings cos he made plenty of good saves and the fact he got anything less than a 7 for that performance is ridiculous

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Re: Muric

Post by taio » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:36 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:31 pm
As per the match thread he got a lot of blame and there were quite a few who marked him down for the goal. He got good ratings cos he made plenty of good saves and the fact he got anything less than a 7 for that performance is ridiculous
The majority scored him 7. There's some ridiculous things said in the heat of the moment on match day threads. It's not surprising that sometimes our players get unfair and more criticism than players of other clubs.

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Re: Muric

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:45 pm

taio wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:36 pm
The majority scored him 7. There's some ridiculous things said in the heat of the moment on match day threads. It's not surprising that sometimes our players get unfair and more criticism than players of other clubs.
And had that been Pope the majority would be scoring him 8 with some 7's and some 9's. Its a bit stupid comparing the two but I understand it can be a natural thing to do but to then hold them to different standards just creates extra and unnecessary negativity to one of our players which will at times transfer from the crowd onto the player which will only create more pressure and anxiety.

Not a lot I can do but I will call it out if I see it
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Re: Muric

Post by Targetman » Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:32 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:45 pm
And had that been Pope the majority would be scoring him 8 with some 7's and some 9's. Its a bit stupid comparing the two but I understand it can be a natural thing to do but to then hold them to different standards just creates extra and unnecessary negativity to one of our players which will at times transfer from the crowd onto the player which will only create more pressure and anxiety.

Not a lot I can do but I will call it out if I see it
Not only you who posts silly things on here then! :D
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Re: Muric

Post by AGENT_CLARET » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:49 am

boatshed bill wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:29 pm
He's doing very well, as is his club.
Muric played 15 conceded 14 in the championship

Cooper played 15 conceded 16 including 5 in one game in league one

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Re: Muric

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:23 am

AGENT_CLARET wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:49 am
Muric played 15 conceded 14 in the championship

Cooper played 15 conceded 16 including 5 in one game in league one
I don't see the point of this comparison.
Plymouth Argyle fans I know are very pleased with Cooper who is very highly rated at his current level.

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Re: Muric

Post by AGENT_CLARET » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:34 am

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:23 am
I don't see the point of this comparison.
Plymouth Argyle fans I know are very pleased with Cooper who is very highly rated at his current level.
Because he was being mentioned in the same sentence has Muric, if you need this explaining to you then this tells me everything and I'll not bother trying

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Re: Muric

Post by Big Vinny K » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:58 am

AGENT_CLARET wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:34 am
Because he was being mentioned in the same sentence has Muric, if you need this explaining to you then this tells me everything and I'll not bother trying
He’s not the only one who does not see the relevance of the comparison.
What is the actual point you are trying to make in posting how many goals each have conceded ?

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Re: Muric

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:59 am

AGENT_CLARET wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:34 am
Because he was being mentioned in the same sentence has Muric, if you need this explaining to you then this tells me everything and I'll not bother trying

Yep, my inferior intellect is a real stumbling block.

If you are trying to suggest that they are on a par then you are wrong.
If you think Cooper is a poor goalkeeper at L1 level you are also wrong.
If you think both Cooper and Plymouth Argyle are not doing well you are wrong yet again.

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Re: Muric

Post by AlargeClaret » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:28 am

If most of the smug experts on here had even a scintilla of an idea of how good a young keeper has to be to be signed as Man City no 3 ( ie possible future no 1) they’d crawl back into their holes. The sheer technical aspects ,speed , reflex and plyometric testing data and that’s even before you’re “ wrong foot” ability , that are carried out at elite keeper level
is staggering . There’s literally a f@g paper between around 200 current UK pro keepers .

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Re: Muric

Post by Nori1958 » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:55 am

AlargeClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:28 am
If most of the smug experts on here had even a scintilla of an idea of how good a young keeper has to be to be signed as Man City no 3 ( ie possible future no 1) they’d crawl back into their holes. The sheer technical aspects ,speed , reflex and plyometric testing data and that’s even before you’re “ wrong foot” ability , that are carried out at elite keeper level
is staggering . There’s literally a f@g paper between around 200 current UK pro keepers .
He may have been signed as number 3,with a view to number 1...but never made it as either

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Re: Muric

Post by AGENT_CLARET » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:22 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:59 am
Yep, my inferior intellect is a real stumbling block.

If you are trying to suggest that they are on a par then you are wrong.
If you think Cooper is a poor goalkeeper at L1 level you are also wrong.
If you think both Cooper and Plymouth Argyle are not doing well you are wrong yet again.
:lol: :lol: okay

Obviously what I put went over your head PLEASE READ IT AGAIN

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Re: Muric

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:44 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:28 am
If most of the smug experts on here had even a scintilla of an idea of how good a young keeper has to be to be signed as Man City no 3 ( ie possible future no 1) they’d crawl back into their holes. The sheer technical aspects ,speed , reflex and plyometric testing data and that’s even before you’re “ wrong foot” ability , that are carried out at elite keeper level
is staggering . There’s literally a f@g paper between around 200 current UK pro keepers .
To be fair, as a self-proclaimed smug expert I would point out that we have had elite young players who didn't make the grade before.

Nick Pope was being loaned out by Charlton to semi-pro teams at the same age. So much for elite metrics....!

(Sits back in armchair with self-satisfied smile at a point well-made and indisputable....!).

Jeeves - pipe and slippers please - I'm ready for my afternoon nap..

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Re: Muric

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:46 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:59 am
Yep, my inferior intellect is a real stumbling block.
Point well made Bill...!

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Re: Muric

Post by KRBFC » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:52 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:44 pm
To be fair, as a self-proclaimed smug expert I would point out that we have had elite young players who didn't make the grade before.

Nick Pope was being loaned out by Charlton to semi-pro teams at the same age. So much for elite metrics....!

(Sits back in armchair with self-satisfied smile at a point well-made and indisputable....!).

Jeeves - pipe and slippers please - I'm ready for my afternoon nap..
easy this expert malarkey aint it

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Re: Muric

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:53 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:52 pm
easy this expert malarkey aint it
Indeed, I'm waiting for the call from Sky as we speak. It's only a matter of time when they read my work on here...
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It Is What It Is
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Re: Muric

Post by It Is What It Is » Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:58 pm

Our defence is no way near as organised as last season.
New team now, new challenges and organising a good solid defence will take time.
Muric has been totally exposed quite a few times to our poor defending hence the conceded goals.
Need to get the discipline in the back 4 again.

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Re: Muric

Post by KRBFC » Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:01 pm

It Is What It Is wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:58 pm
Our defence is no way near as organised as last season.
New team now, new challenges and organising a good solid defence will take time.
Muric has been totally exposed quite a few times to our poor defending hence the conceded goals.
Need to get the discipline in the back 4 again.
well we aren't playing with 11 men behind the ball sat on the edge of our area anymore, of course we're going to be less solid at the back.

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Re: Muric

Post by It Is What It Is » Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:44 pm

I said the back 4 ....not the whole team.

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Re: Muric

Post by AlargeClaret » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:33 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:44 pm
To be fair, as a self-proclaimed smug expert I would point out that we have had elite young players who didn't make the grade before.

Nick Pope was being loaned out by Charlton to semi-pro teams at the same age. So much for elite metrics....!

(Sits back in armchair with self-satisfied smile at a point well-made and indisputable....!).

Jeeves - pipe and slippers please - I'm ready for my afternoon nap..
Pretty much same with all keepers once they finish as scholars ,if signed they will be approx No 4/5/6 no matter how good they are . Unless they get a very lucky break they’ll be loaned out to the local non league / low division. Pope /Pickford great examples and Butland who was another child prodigy ( as was Pickford ) about to be Eng no 1 going from hero zero at Stoke . Though I’ll agree many young elite keepers don’t make it .
Takes a Wethers original and falls asleep ( with bag on lap ) wearing a smug grin…

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Re: Muric

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:36 pm

AGENT_CLARET wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:22 pm
:lol: :lol: okay

Obviously what I put went over your head PLEASE READ IT AGAIN
No, nothing has "gone over my head", not even your patronising tone.
What you have given is the reason for your post, not the point that your comparison seems to be trying to make; a point that doesn't need making.

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Re: Muric

Post by AGENT_CLARET » Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:15 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:36 pm
No, nothing has "gone over my head", not even your patronising tone.
What you have given is the reason for your post, not the point that your comparison seems to be trying to make; a point that doesn't need making.
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Re: Muric

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:26 pm

AGENT_CLARET wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:15 pm
Screenshot_20221024-191411_Chrome.jpg
Nice
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