Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[evensteadiereddie]

Why? Does it make them feel big and clever?

I can't speak for the others but putting some spiteful weirdo in his place doesn't make me feel big or clever, it's just the right thing to do.

If the lad made his point and moved on, cutting out the lazy, moth-eaten jibes towards all those that disagree with him, the problem would disappear.

[nil_desperandum]

There's a disconnect between serious topic and what's been posted on here...and don't just blame one person. Anyhow, well done for picking out and quoting my post from it all - I must've posted about three times this week.

Another confrontational post. I didn't "pick out" our post. You replied to my post, and following notification, I replied back to you. That's usually, (most often), how message boards work.
I hardly ever post on here nowadays, and a lot of posters have now either stopped posting, or abandoned the site altogether. This reminds me why. I took a complete break a few months ago. Time to do the same again I reckon. Might return when we get back out on the pitch.

[taio]

Another confrontational post. I didn't "pick out" our post. You replied to my post, and following notification, I replied back to you. That's usually, (most often), how message boards work.
I hardly ever post on here nowadays, and a lot of posters have now either stopped posting, or abandoned the site altogether. This reminds me why. I took a complete break a few months ago. Time to do the same again I reckon. Might return when we get back out on the pitch.

Apologies I thought it was you who replied to my very brief post which reflected the sentiments you now refer to. I agree with what you say which is why I post much less too.

[Devils_Advocate]

I see Johnson is in the news wanting to renegotiate his 'oven ready' deal.

That aside I came across this interesting piece on impacts that a No Deal outcome may have on food supplies

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1269 ... 20160.html

Im guessing this article will grind the gears of one poster in particular

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Sounds like Boris forgot to buy an oven.

[tiger76]

I see Johnson is in the news wanting to renegotiate his 'oven ready' deal.

That aside I came across this interesting piece on impacts that a No Deal outcome may have on food supplies

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1269 ... 20160.html

Im guessing this article will grind the gears of one poster in particular

At last some grown-up debate, and this nightmare scenario is why we have to get a deal, or at least ask for an extension, which would be readily granted by the EU, if we want tariff free access to the SM, which i'd imagine most people whichever way they voted in 2016 do, then we'll need to offer the EU something in return, whether that's on fishing, the jurisdiction of the ECJ, or another independent body to settle disputes, or even FOM.

It won't please the ERG types, but that's tough, we need to deal in the reality of where we are now, not the false promises made in 2016.

Compare and contrast the rhetoric a couple of years ago, and the hard nosed reality now.

Then

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng ... y-dropped

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2 ... eal-brexit

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit- ... n-8846041

Now

https://www.ft.com/content/37379a1e-4c2 ... 18ec715f5

Is there a mandate for brexit? yes there is. Is there a mandate for a no-deal brexit? no there is not, and as someone who voted for brexit in 2016, if we crash out without a deal, i'll immediately start campaigning for us to rejoin, there is a middle ground where both the EU and the UK can find agreement, well both claiming to have secured their goals, it just requires the will from both parties to get round the table and talk like grown-up's.

[Devils_Advocate]

I really cant see how we can come out of it with a decent deal. The Covid stuff aside Johnsons govt and especially there stance on Brexit is hugely popular and supported and there is a lack of truth and accountability around our politics in general.

I cant see anything but damage to this country and its people and I still cant see the Tory's being kicked out of power anytime soon.

I'd guess most of us on here will be fine but those at the bottom of society have got a pretty bleak and tough future in front of them

[jrgbfc]

I think we're heading for no deal tbh. It's clearly what plenty in the Tory party have wanted all along. It will be blamed on those "nasty Europeans" refusing to compromise, and large parts of the electorate will swallow it.

[dsr]

I think we're heading for no deal tbh. It's clearly what plenty in the Tory party have wanted all along. It will be blamed on those "nasty Europeans" refusing to compromise, and large parts of the electorate will swallow it.

With good reason. The EU's idea of a deal is that we carry on as if we were still in but we don't get a vote any more. Now that we're not in the EU, why would we want to accept EU rules and regulations, not just over trade with the EU but also trade with Australia, with Africa, with the USA (our biggest single export market), with the rest of the world? Why would any independent nation, wishing for an EU trade agreement, accept that they were now under EU law?

[RingoMcCartney]

To be fair, anyone who can't / wont accept that there's a significant difference between the words "can" and "will" ("could" / "would") shouldn't really be posting on serious topics on a board for adults.

Congratulations! Despite some stiff competition, you've won the Most Patronising Post of The Week award.

Let me explain in an "adult" way.

Straw man - an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because its easier to defeat than the opponents real arguement.

ThefamilyCat, Marty , aggi and the sore loser remoaner flock. Spent over a week proposing whether or not it was said that the closure of the Sunderland nissan plant "could" happen if the country voted to leave the EU. As opposed to it being said that the closure of the Sunderland nissan plant "would happen if the country voted to leave the EU.

The real arguement was in fact whether or not Project fear had used the simple threat of closure of the plant , if the county voted to leave the EU, as part of their pre referendum campaign to try and persuade people to vote Remain. And its clear that the future of the nissan plant was used by those who wanted the country to remain. Fortunately all the fear mongering and controversy around the plants future was wisely ignored by the majority of voters. Famously so by over 60 % of those Sunderland folk who were far too wise to listen to lies.

Anybody prepared to argue that the Nissan Sunderland plant wasn't and still is being weaponized by remoaners while brexiteers continue to ignore Project Fear Part 2 is either deluded, lying or trolling for over a week using a sad sack straw man arguement. Which this thread proves that given enough time those attempting to do it, like Martin p and FamilyCat end up avoiding answering questions that attempt to bring thecduscusdion back to the real argument and inevitably being hoist by their own petard.

[RingoMcCartney]

Or bullying? Ganging up on one poster.

Whatever it is, nobody is coming out of it with any credit. It's an embarrassment to the board.

Dont worry it's the reaction you get for reflecting what the silent majority are thinking . For being on the majority side of numerous expressions of democracy.

If the noisy minority detest one thing, it's being reminded that they're the tiny noisy minority.

It's not me that's "trolling". I simply reflect the majority view and for that there's a group of trolls who are happy to describe me as "a virus" and told to "eff off" , make immature jokes about 'boris Johnson shagging my wife" , theres one who enjoys nothing more than not using foul language, but diagnose me as autistic! I've had them post pictures of rats, drunken down n outs, pedal bins full of empty drink bottles.

But here's the thing. The more they do it. The more I know, the numerous time I've shut them up through words and a better argument , its irritated them.

Definitely no self pitying here. None whatsoever.
Just quiet satisfaction.

[evensteadiereddie]

See, no autistic tendencies whatsoever !

Give it a rest, your post is typical in that it highlights the issues you have and the strange tendencies you display. One minute a bragging buffoon, the next a whingeing victim.

Don't fret about what you perceive to be "winning" or "losing", fella, just make your point and be done with it. Judging from the recent responses on this thread, you appear to represent yourself and nobody else.

Show a bit of self-respect and be content with that.

Time to move on, methinks.

[RingoMcCartney]

I’m assuming the last page or two of this thread is what a mental breakdown looks like!

No, but this is what someone spending over a week long obsessing about a straw man arguement then meeting themselves coming back with a shooting themselves in the foot post looks like.

Post Sat May 30, 2020 8:28 am

I’d do your quick check if I were you! Plenty were saying it’d cost jobs, no one said the plant would close.

That was just the start of your strawman journey of obsessing on the word "could". Interesting how you say it's only "cost jobs". The idea of plant closure, according to you wasnt an option.

Post Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:20 am

You clearly haven’t read a word I’ve said. I’ve said all along that Nissan said the plant could close due to Brexit. What they didn’t say is what you’ve claimed they and the media said that the plant would close due to Brexit. The fact that you are still struggling to spot the difference between these statements frankly astounds me.

This is you, over a week later, admitting that the plant had been threatened with closure. I know you were careful to make sure you dropped the "could" word in. But that's you and your straw man again.

The undeniable fact is that the very future of the Sunderland plant was weaponized by Project Fear for months leading upto the referendum. Yet , as I said , brexiteers particularly those in Sunderland have been proven right to have ignored the lies and vindicated by Nissan announcing the plant will be its European HQ.

[martin_p]

If you think reporting facts is a 'strawman' then there's no point in discussing it any further.



I predict that the fact I'm tired of arguing with man that can't comprehend the english language will mean he thinks he scored some sort of victory. Apparently you have to write this sort of thing in really small letters.

[RingoMcCartney]

If you think reporting facts is a 'strawman' then there's no point in discussing it any further.



I predict that the fact I'm tired of arguing with man that can't comprehend the english language will mean he thinks he scored some sort of victory. Apparently you have to write this sort of thing in really small letters.

Post Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:12 pm

Why was the future of the Nissan plant, in the run up to, and in the immediate aftermath of the referendum such a contentious issue Marty?

You never answered that question. Why? Because you'd have had to concede to what I'd said. It had been used by Project fear who'd made political capital over regular suggestions or inferences by Nissan that the factory faced closure if the country voted leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndum-flyer

That's the Guardian seizing on Nissan's decision to take legal action against the Vote Leave campaign after the Japanese carmaker’s logo was used on leaflets calling for voters to back Brexit in Thursday’s referendum.

On one flyer the Nissan logo appeared next to those of four other major companies, including Unilever and Vauxhall, with the message: “Major employers … have all said they’ll stay in the UK whatever the result of the referendum.”

Nissan, which wants Britain to remain in the EU, announced on Monday it was issuing legal proceedings to stop Vote Leave from using its name and logo and to “prevent them making any further false statements and misrepresentations concerning Nissan”.

The clear implication of this Project Fear piece , was if Nissan wont allow Vote Leave to say they would stay, following a vote to leave. Then they are obviously prepared to shut the plant down following a vote to leave. This would certainly not have been lost on the workers of the plant and the 30000 or so in the supply chain and local businesses.

And you claimed there was no evidence of "they and the media said that the plant would close due to Brexit!"


( still clinging on to your strawman comfort blanket of my not knowing the difference between "could" and "would" didn't work last week . It's not going to work this!)

[aggi]

More possible issues with a no-deal Brexit, pharmaceutical companies and the like are reporting that the stocks they'd laid in to see them through such disruption have nearly been exhausted. If we do end up with no deal it will likely require direct government intervention (chartering and prioritising ferries and cargo planes) to ensure that the supply isn't disrupted.

[tiger76]

More possible issues with a no-deal Brexit, pharmaceutical companies and the like are reporting that the stocks they'd laid in to see them through such disruption have nearly been exhausted. If we do end up with no deal it will likely require direct government intervention (chartering and prioritising ferries and cargo planes) to ensure that the supply isn't disrupted.

Yes just seen this. I'm curious what the contingency plans consist of, this government hardly inspire confidence in the event of a no-deal brexit, which is becoming more likely as each week passes.

[dsr]

More possible issues with a no-deal Brexit, pharmaceutical companies and the like are reporting that the stocks they'd laid in to see them through such disruption have nearly been exhausted. If we do end up with no deal it will likely require direct government intervention (chartering and prioritising ferries and cargo planes) to ensure that the supply isn't disrupted.

If a further 7 months isn't enough time for them to restock, then it can only be because the supply isn't there. In which case, the government won't be able to buy the stuff either.

[aggi]

If a further 7 months isn't enough time for them to restock, then it can only be because the supply isn't there. In which case, the government won't be able to buy the stuff either.

Maybe. To be honest I'm not an expert on that area but I'm willing to accept that the cross section of pharmaceutical industry groups who prepared the memo have more knowledge than I do.

[jrgbfc]

More possible issues with a no-deal Brexit, pharmaceutical companies and the like are reporting that the stocks they'd laid in to see them through such disruption have nearly been exhausted. If we do end up with no deal it will likely require direct government intervention (chartering and prioritising ferries and cargo planes) to ensure that the supply isn't disrupted.

What's Chris Grayling up to these days? He's an expert in that field.

[tiger76]

Maybe. To be honest I'm not an expert on that area but I'm willing to accept that the cross section of pharmaceutical industry groups who prepared the memo have more knowledge than I do.

Probably but why listen to experts when you've got Dominic Cummings & Michael Gove to rely on.

[Devils_Advocate]

If no deal wasn't on the cards then we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains

Potentially causing ourselves maximum disruption whilst we are not in a position to properly prepare sounds something only an idiot would do or in other words the current Tory govt that DSR so gleefully supports

[tiger76]

What's Chris Grayling up to these days? He's an expert in that field.

Failing Grayling good grief even this government can't be that desperate can they.

[dsr]

If no deal wasn't on the cards then we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains

Potentially causing ourselves maximum disruption whilst we are not in a position to properly prepare sounds something only an idiot would do or in other words the current Tory govt that DSR so gleefully supports

You're arguing for an unexpected team there. The world and his wife, government supporters and opponents both, have agreed that it was a mistake not having a stockpile of PPE. And here's you saying that if only Brexit hadn't happened, we would have been in the happy (and correct) position of having no stockpile of pharmaceuticals either.

One think I thought we could all have agreed on re. coronavirus is that it has taught all of us the benefit of having a stockpile of essential medical equipment. Perhaps now we can say it's taught all of us bar one.

[dsr]

duplicate post

[Greenmile]

Probably but why listen to experts when you've got Dominic Cummings & Michael Gove to rely on.

...and dsr.

[tiger76]

...and dsr.

Don't forget Ringo

[KateR]

If no deal wasn't on the cards then we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains

Potentially causing ourselves maximum disruption whilst we are not in a position to properly prepare sounds something only an idiot would do or in other words the current Tory govt that DSR so gleefully supports

Only an idiot would suggest doing what we have been doing in terms of supply chain and stocks since this virus/pandemic shows the flaws in that very clearly for all business users and Supply Chain is going to change big time, only my opinion of course and not in support of the Gov. or what DSR says.

[Devils_Advocate]

You're arguing for an unexpected team there. The world and his wife, government supporters and opponents both, have agreed that it was a mistake not having a stockpile of PPE. And here's you saying that if only Brexit hadn't happened, we would have been in the happy (and correct) position of having no stockpile of pharmaceuticals either.

One think I thought we could all have agreed on re. coronavirus is that it has taught all of us the benefit of having a stockpile of essential medical equipment. Perhaps now we can say it's taught all of us bar one.

Nope you've misunderstood my point.

We got the stockpile of medicines in preparation for Brexit but due to Covid those stockpiles have been used up. (the fact we needed to stockpile medicines should have been warning enough that you'd been sold a pup but obviously not)

Also because of Covid we are not in a position to replenish those stockpiles

Now this risk could persuade the govt that No Deal is a terrible outcome (with the right deal we would not need stockpiles)

Or it could encourage them to at least to extend the translation period to help accommodate the challenges and issues this virus has caused (more time to try and build up stockpiles or more time to get a good deal)

Or it could just plow ahead and ignore the damage a No Deal could cause (the idiots option aka DSRs choice)

[dsr]

If no deal wasn't on the cards then we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains.

I must have misunderstood this line. This line suggests to me that you think that if it wasn't for Brexit we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains. Is that not what it means?

I say we do need to stockpile drugs, PPE, and all the other essentials to cope with a pandemic. You say we don't.

[Devils_Advocate]

I must have misunderstood this line. This line suggests to me that you think that if it wasn't for Brexit we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains. Is that not what it means?

I say we do need to stockpile drugs, PPE, and all the other essentials to cope with a pandemic. You say we don't.

I was saying if we were not potentially heading for a no deal Brexit then we wouldn't need stockpiles of medicines to cope with the problems to supplies that a No Deal Brexit would bring

With or without Brexit we would be facing challenges related to Covid 19 but why anyone would think it is a good idea to amplify those problems through a decision of our own making is what I find stupid

I think No Deal was suicidal before Coronavirus but why people like you are still happy to crack on in this current climate is a mystery

[dsr]

If no deal wasn't on the cards then we wouldn't need to stockpile and could just source supplies if and when we need them and when they become available through our existing global supply chains ...

Do you stand by that claim?

[Devils_Advocate]

Do you stand by that claim?

With the intent it was meant which I have explained to you, then yes I do.

If you are resorting to your usually disingenuous claptrap because your own views dont stand up to scrutiny then the question just like your argument becomes irrelevant

Up to you pal, you can discuss and disagree in good faith or you can look like the disingenuous fool you often do, the choice is yours!

Edit: Just to try and save us needing to go round in circles I presume you have read the article. If not it specifically talks about stockpiles being empty once the pandemic has ended and we are back in a more normal trading environment. It is at this point the impact of No Deal will potentially hit us.

[dsr]

No, I've not read it. If I google "the article" will it come up?

[Devils_Advocate]

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-5 ... ssion=true

[dsr]

It's quite specific that the impact of no deal has already hit us. If it hadn't been for the likelihood of no deal, we wouldn't have had the stockpiles we did have.

There seem to be two main issues on that rather involved article. One is the impact that coronavirus has on the drug supply, and the other is the impact that potential holdups at Dover will have on 31st December. I'm not sure they have concentrated on the more serious issue there.

[tiger76]

One of Britain’s most senior business leaders has issued a stark warning about firms’ preparedness for a no-deal scenario when the Brexit transition period finishes at the end of the year.

Carolyn Fairbairn, outgoing director-general of the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), warned failure to secure a trade deal would damage growth and worsen inequalities.

Britain will remain closely tied to the EU until 2021 as part of a transition deal struck between Brussels and prime minister Johnson’s government last year.

But negotiators are running out of time to break the deadlock in talks over a future trade deal, and the UK government has refused to extend the transition.

Fairbairn has written to the prime minister, warning it risks the same “catastrophic” cliff-edge as last year. Significant new trade barriers and a rupturing of economic and other longstanding ties are likely if no agreement is reached.

Fairbairn warned such an outcome would be a “major block” to recovery from the coronavirus crisis, which has battered UK and EU economies. "As one member put it to me — just because the house is on fire, it doesn't make it okay to set fire to the garden shed,” she told the BBC.

"Small businesses were not ready last time there was a no-deal Brexit threat — this time they will not have had a moment to prepare for it," she told the BBC.

“Many businesses are fighting to survive as the impact of COVID-19 unfolds. A good deal with would be a foundation stone of renewal,” she added on Twitter.

Minister Michael Gove claimed on Wednesday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier was “inclined to move” on certain issues including state aid and fisheries. But both sides have repeatedly warned they will not compromise on key questions, including the EU’s insistence Britain stay aligned with many of its rules to enjoy tariff-free trade.

Gove also made a surprising claim in the Commons that the CBI did not support an extension to the transition period. Fairbairn appeared to respond to the suggestion in a tweet later on Thursday, writing: “Government has ruled out an extension — business have no choice but to plan on that basis. But that means a deal is the only acceptable option.”

The CBI also announced on Thursday that Fairbairn will leave her post in November and be replaced by Tony Danker, head of Be The Business.

[tiger76]

UK 'abandons full EU Brexit border checks' - FT
The UK has abandoned plans for full border checks with the EU on 1 January amid pressures caused by the coronavirus pandemic, the Financial Times reports.

Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove has accepted that businesses cannot cope with problems stemming from the outbreak and at the same time deal with post-Brexit disruption at the border, the FT says.

Instead, the government will bring in a temporary light-touch system at ports, the paper reports.

[Spijed]

Meanwhile UK economy shrinks by 20%

[tiger76]

No Brexit extension that's fine, we'd better start working our arses off to get a deal passed then.

UK cabinet minister Michael Gove has said the government has "formally confirmed" it will not extend the Brexit transition period.

The UK has left the EU, but will remain in both the bloc's customs union and single market until 31 December.

Downing Street has faced calls from some quarters to push back the date due to the continuing coronavirus pandemic.

But tweeting after a meeting with EU officials, Gove said that the "moment for extension has now passed".

His comments follow calls from Scotland First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford, the First Minister of Wales, to extend the transition period.

In a letter to Prime Minister Boris Johnson, the pair said it "would be "extraordinarily reckless" to transition as scheduled.

Johnson is expected to hold crunch trade talks with EU leaders next week.

I fear this will only increase support for Scottish independence, already polls are giving the yes side a narrow lead.

[dsr]

No Brexit extension that's fine, we'd better start working our arses off to get a deal passed then.

UK cabinet minister Michael Gove has said the government has "formally confirmed" it will not extend the Brexit transition period.

The UK has left the EU, but will remain in both the bloc's customs union and single market until 31 December.

Downing Street has faced calls from some quarters to push back the date due to the continuing coronavirus pandemic.

But tweeting after a meeting with EU officials, Gove said that the "moment for extension has now passed".

His comments follow calls from Scotland First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford, the First Minister of Wales, to extend the transition period.

In a letter to Prime Minister Boris Johnson, the pair said it "would be "extraordinarily reckless" to transition as scheduled.

Johnson is expected to hold crunch trade talks with EU leaders next week.

I fear this will only increase support for Scottish independence, already polls are giving the yes side a narrow lead.

They did last time as well, didn't they?

When they have another ballot, it won't be during the time of lockdown and Brexit. It'll be a few years down the line. And when they do vote, a lot of it will be based on general gut feeling rather than logic.

Which is a shame. Because while they may be upset about losing free trade with the EU, approx 10% of their export market, they wouldn't logically show that disappointment by voting to end free trade with another 80% of their export market. But as I say, it isn't always logic that decides it.

What will be interesting is that if they do ever vote for independence, they'll be in a similar position as we are with the EU. We're the smaller party leaving the bloc, which in many people's eyes means that it's only fair that we should give up fishing rights, legal independence, and follow all relevant EU laws. I wonder if Scotland will also agree to give up fishing rights, legal independence and agree to follow English laws after independence?

[CombatClaret]

So we're back to No Deal that leave said wouldn't even be an issue because we hold all the cards


Vanishingly low level of public awareness no-deal Brexit could happen in 2016
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 27551.html

“Despite attempts by prominent Brexit campaigners like Dominic Raab and Boris Johnson to re-write history, no-deal was barely even mentioned by Leave campaigners during the referendum. Even the most extreme proponents of Brexit, like Nigel Farage, promised we’d get a deal from the EU.”

According to Google Trends records, the earliest flicker of interest from the search engine's users in no-deal came in the weeks before Theresa May struck her ill-fated withdrawal agreement with the European Commission in November 2017.
But records suggest that searches did not begin in any number until July 2018, when Boris Johnson and David Davis walked out of her cabinet in protest at her deal.

[dsr]

It's true. Few people realised just how determined the EU would be to avoid giving any sort of acceptable deal. At no stage did the EU make it clear that deals like Canada or Japan were offered would be out of the question.

[KateR]

NO, you and everyone else has no idea whether there will be a deal, Good, Bad or Ugly with the 4th option of no-deal. You're just making an assumption, one that may well end up being correct, but you don't know. What you do know is that some people wrongly assumed that coming to a deal would be straightforward, easy, obviously it has not been, but it always takes two sides to make a deal or even to make a no deal.

I am in the let's wait and see camp, have said for years, some good some bad will come out of it, whether deal or no deal but we are getting close to actually knowing exactly what the outcome will be.

[martin_p]

It's true. Few people realised just how determined the EU would be to avoid giving any sort of acceptable deal. At no stage did the EU make it clear that deals like Canada or Japan were offered would be out of the question.

Lots of people said there was nothing in it for the EU to offer us anything like a good deal, but you didn’t listen.

[dsr]

Lots of people said there was nothing in it for the EU to offer us anything like a good deal, but you didn’t listen.

There is lots in it to offer us a good deal. They offered a good deal to Canada and to Japan; why not to us? The problem is that the EU wants to sign a deal where they get all the benefit and we get as little as possible. The point of good deals is that they are deals that both sides like.

We offer the EU unfettered access to the UK market and they offer unfettered access to the EU market - that's a good deal for both sides, if you like free trade. But if they offer unfettered access to the EU market but demand in return unfettered access to the UK market PLUS the fishing rights PLUS the right to set our laws PLUS billions of pounds of cash PLUS their courts having jurisdiction over ours; then obviously it's a belting deal for them, but a bad deal for us. Except that to you, presumably, that's a good deal for us? It's just a matter of what we each think makes a good deal.

[JohnMcGreal]

They offered a good deal to Canada and to Japan; why not to us?

They didn't 'offer' them good deals. They negotiated fairly lightweight trade deals (in comparison to what we're after) over a period of 5-7 years.

But there are several reasons why Canada and Japan are useless comparisons. The first major reason is down to simple geography. Neither Canada or Japan are on the doorstep of the EU, nor are their economies deeply embedded in the EU system. Unlike the UK.

Secondly, both Canada and Japan wanted to get closer to the EU in terms of co-operation and trade, and spent many years finding ways to get there. Unlike the UK.

Thirdly, neither Canada or Japan imposed stupid time restrictions on themselves, and they also didn't rip up their existing international trade relationships in order to trade with the EU. Neither country was in a desperate situation. Unlike the UK.

[bfcjg]

I voted for Brexit as well as quite a few people I know, we voted to stop political interference including the justice system in UK matters we didn't vote for a no deal Brexit. It is economic madness to pursue this at the moment the economy is facing its worst period ever compounded by the no deal option all economists are saying so, its Johnson and Cummings rank stupidity that is dragging us to the precipice. Delay for at least a year, see how the world is, see if the EU becomes less bureaucratic then decide or even go for a second vote, if they went less bureaucratic and became a trading block only I would happily vote to stay a member.

[tiger76]

I voted for Brexit as well as quite a few people I know, we voted to stop political interference including the justice system in UK matters we didn't vote for a no deal Brexit. It is economic madness to pursue this at the moment the economy is facing its worst period ever compounded by the no deal option all economists are saying so, its Johnson and Cummings rank stupidity that is dragging us to the precipice. Delay for at least a year, see how the world is, see if the EU becomes less bureaucratic then decide or even go for a second vote, if they went less bureaucratic and became a trading block only I would happily vote to stay a member.

Exactly when we voted in 2016 no-deal was barely mentioned, if it was even mentioned at all.

I do recall Michael Gove promising the easiest trade deal in history, well that's proved to be a load of bunkum hasn't it.

I'd happily accept a looser free-trading relationship with the EU , which is beneficial to both parties, like yourself it's all the overbearing politics i disagree with.

Unlike some leave voters the FOM doesn't bother me, so that's not an issue for me, immigration will continue whether we are part of the EU or not, it's happened for thousands of years prior to our EU membership, and I've no doubt it'll happen well into the future.

Why the government are so set on actively pursuing a no-deal brexit is beyond me, we should delay for 12 months minimum, and see what the post-covid economy looks like, before embarking on such a reckless strategy.

If they continue down this path, then don't be surprised if the devolved nations in the UK see increased support for more devolution. or even full independence.If you believe that's a price worth paying then fine, but that'll be the upshot of a no-deal brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53019046

The argument from the UK government is any extension will only bring further uncertainty for business, i disagree if we crash out without a deal, then sooner or later we'll have to come to an agreement about future arrangements anyway, unless you genuinely believe that tariffs are a good thing both exports and imports to and from the EU, I've not come across anybody that thinks that, and i know a fair few brexiteers.

Regarding a 2nd vote, i was vehemently opposed to that, however the goalposts have now been moved by the government, and what was promised even before the 2019 election, is being reneged on, there's even talk that they're attempting to change the WA, they do not have a mandate for that, and should they proceed with this, then they'll be going against one of their main manifesto commitments given only 7 months ago.

BJ promised to "get brexit done" this isn't getting brexit done, this is kicking the can down the road, because either we come to a sensible agreement now, or this issue will have to be revisited in a few years anyway, when we're in an even worse position to negotiate. I know which outcome i'd rather see.

[aggi]

It's true. Few people realised just how determined the EU would be to avoid giving any sort of acceptable deal. At no stage did the EU make it clear that deals like Canada or Japan were offered would be out of the question.

Well, quite a lot of people pointed out how difficult it would be to get a decent deal but I believe that was known as #projectfear and talking the country down.