Surrogacy for same sex couples

[CoolClaret]

Do you have a list of other things you like to tell they can and can’t do ?
Are they allowed to sit next to you on the school bus ?

Why can't you understand that I'm arguing on the premises that same sex parents cannot offer the same benefits as traditional male/female parents can.

You've not pushed any argument that they can other than 'show love' - which as I've stated is vastly underestimating the complexity to bringing kids up is- it's more than that, there are intangibles that we don't know and I'm not convinced that suddenly having a generation of kids brought up of same sex parents is going to be beneficial - and you haven't shown any evidence that it will.

Instead you've turned to childish name-calling and ridiculous statements like the ones quoted.

They can do what the hell they want to do as long as it doesn't unnecessarily impact on peoples lives, which I believe denying a child a mother or father actually does.

[TVC15]

And I have asked you several times what is it specifically that you do not think same sex parents cannot provide a child that different sex parents can.

There was probably a similar discussion 50 years ago on children born out of wedlock.

I am being facetious because I truly think that your views belong in the dark ages and I would sincerely love to see you have this debate with your gay friends - as however much you pretend they are ok with your views I cannot believe they would be anything else but highly insulted and disgusted.

[CoolClaret]

And I have asked you several times what is it specifically that you do not think same sex parents cannot provide a child that different sex parents can.

A separate mother and father that both have unique qualities and perspectives that are essential in bringing up a child optimally ffs.

[Sidney1st]

Why can't you understand that I'm arguing on the premises that same sex parents cannot offer the same benefits as traditional male/female parents can.

You've not pushed any argument that they can other than 'show love' - which as I've stated is vastly underestimating the complexity to bringing kids up is- it's more than that, there are intangibles that we don't know and I'm not convinced that suddenly having a generation of kids brought up of same sex parents is going to be beneficial - and you haven't shown any evidence that it will.

Instead you've turned to childish name-calling and ridiculous statements like the ones quoted.

They can do what the hell they want to do as long as it doesn't unnecessarily impact on peoples lives, which I believe denying a child a mother or father actually does.

So when a child is denied a parent in a single parent family, you're ok with that so long as it's a straight parent?

People can do what they hell they want so long as they don't impact on outdated views it would appear.

So you're not willing to give gay couples the chance to raise their own children because something different might happen?
Something different to the car crashes that the heterosexual family unit can be provides?
Interesting line of thought.

Next it will be "studies show..." but studies will clearly be using limited data because there's this bizarre fear of homosexuality that's blocking decent human beings from raising children, unless it's one they've adopted because that's alright according to this board...
Provide proof it would cause harm..

I have the same opinion on gay marriage as I do on gay couples having children through surrogacy.

They deserve the chance to show that the life they'd live outside the bedroom wouldn't be any different to what straight people get up to whether they last the duration or break up within a few years, because that's exactly what straight people do.

[Sidney1st]

A separate mother and father that both have unique qualities and perspectives that are essential in bringing up a child optimally ffs.

What about single parent families?

Or aren't you including them in this?

[Rowls]

Oh so you didn't read what I posted.

Or understand your biology classes.

Or both.

[Rowls]

Or maybe you just didn't understand what I wrote?

Or perhaps (and this is the last option I can think of) you've assumed I hold a certain opinion and thought I'd said that regardless of what I wrote?

[CoolClaret]

What about single parent families?

Or aren't you including them in this?

Single parent families are another sub-optimal way to raise a child as I have previously stated.

For example a huge problem for example in inner cities is young men in single parent families without fathers that end up getting into organised crime etc.

Note - of course there are always exceptions, of course there are individuals that will succeed despite shitty circumstances but they are unique - the average may not.

[Sidney1st]

No I've read everything you've written and i think you're wrong about a lot of it with your outdated opinion that's all.

There's nothing to suggest gay couples cannot raise children, nor to suggest they'd be worse than straight people.
You can talk about biology, nature, lack of studies etc, but quite simply you've got nothing to base your argument on.

Can a gay male couple explain puberty and periods to a daughter?
My straight male friend did it because he's a single parent and raised his 2 daughters on his own for nearly 10yrs.
He even learned how to plait hair etc.

Are you saying a gay man can't do exactly the same?
You'll struggle to convince anyone that your opinion is correct.

Same with lesbian women raising boys, what can't they do that a single female parent can?

Nothing, absolutely nothing is different.

[Sidney1st]

Backward Burnley!! My fella detests footy but I might just bring him with me in a few weeks if only to see the reaction from some of the neanderthals that live in this hovel

Yeah because Leicester is an absolutely modern forward thinking metropolis...

Idiot.

[CoolClaret]

OK so where does it end?

Let's completely do away with the past 10000+ years or so of family structure just because we are now 'in 2018'

Are you comfortable with a transgender person and a gender fluid person bringing up a child?
Do you think it'll have no adverse effect on the child? Shouldn't matter right, as long as they are shown 'love'

[Walton]

Gave my missus, a child psychotherapist, a run down of your beliefs Cool, and she thinks you're talking pure bo**ocks.

[CoolClaret]

Gave my missus, a child psychotherapist, a run down of your beliefs Cool, and she thinks you're talking pure bo**ocks.

Not an argument.

[yTib]

fifteen or so years from now this argument will seem quaint.

the bottom line is two parents are usually better than one.

but i'm sure there are lots of kids would love a couple of good gay parents to a couple of bad straight ones.

[ClaretAndJew]

I had no male role model growing up, I didn't even meet my dad until I was in my 20's, I'm doing better than people I know who had a traditional family upbringing.

[CoolClaret]

I had no male role model growing up, I didn't even meet my dad until I was in my 20's, I'm doing better than people I know who had a traditional family upbringing.

The counter argument would be to say, 'could you be doing 'even better' though'?

It's not a dig, just an honest question.
Congrats btw, you have succeeded despite sub-optimal conditions, which means that you are a unique individual.

[ClaretAndJew]

Depends how you quantify better, I suppose.

[Lancasterclaret]

If you are calling a Jew "sub optimal" there is a thread on this site just for you.

[yTib]

i think the term 'sub optimal' transcends any jewish context.

it is surely the kind of term the nazis used.

sweet jesus.

[ClaretAndJew]

To be fair, Lancaster, he's calling my upbringing sub-optimal which is hilarious in and of itself. I don't take offence to it though, maybe I should? I dunno.

You'd be hard pressed to actually find any appropriate proof of either/or in relation to the topics being discussed. You'd need a similar sample size over the same number of years to give an accurate reading of results, I doubt that it has been done, and even that wouldn't be 100% concrete evidence of either/or.

[Lancasterclaret]

I was being as serious as you normally are, though anyone who uses the term "sub-optimal" in anything than a 6-0 home defeat is probably a very dangerous individual.

[yTib]

when all said and done some folk would rather a child be adopted by a man and wife hillbilies than an intellectual, well balanced same sex couple.

this cannot be right.

[TVC15]

A separate mother and father that both have unique qualities and perspectives that are essential in bringing up a child optimally ffs.

You really are talking utter sh-ite.
Rather than quote out of the 1965 edition of Good Parenting why don’t you say what these unique qualities and perspectives are that are “essential” to bring up a child “optimally”.

I’ve been a parent for 23 years and I really do not have a clue what the f-uck you are talking about. You use words like sub optimal and optimally like it’s some kind of science experiment.

Talk English and tell us all what these qualities are that are unique - it should be relatively straight forward for you as they are unique....that’s a big word you know.

Or are you just going to carry on talking like a f’in nutter ?

Btw - are you a parent ?

[TVC15]

The counter argument would be to say, 'could you be doing 'even better' though'?

It's not a dig, just an honest question.
Congrats btw, you have succeeded despite sub-optimal conditions, which means that you are a unique individual.

You really are ticking all those boxes.
Can we have your views on blacks and women next please.

[Sidney1st]

OK so where does it end?

Let's completely do away with the past 10000+ years or so of family structure just because we are now 'in 2018'

Are you comfortable with a transgender person and a gender fluid person bringing up a child?
Do you think it'll have no adverse effect on the child? Shouldn't matter right, as long as they are shown 'love'

I think the child would have a better understanding of people than you.

[CoolClaret]

when all said and done some folk would rather a child be adopted by a man and wife hillbilies than an intellectual, well balanced same sex couple.

this cannot be right.

I've never said that at all.

With regards to optimal / sub - optimal....
Everything is a system, things can be done better or worse, I'm sure there are success stories of kids that have been brought up being abused etc that have still succeeded in life despite their shitty upbringing.

Now I'd consider that to be a sub-optimal upbringing.

I'm referring to the optimal way of being brought up as being brought up with a loving mother and father in a stable household- like in the studies that Rowls linked.

Or after a quick Google search as listed in tree following link
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... m-dad-fam/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not quite sure how that makes me a Nazi (pretty ludicrous) and can't see why Lancaster there would think I was being anti - semetic? Way to totally misread my post.

I'm trying to be objective, I've already stated that I see no issue with homosexuals adopting kids in need of a loving home, but fail to see why it'd be ethically sound for them to have surrogacy, as its knowingly depriving a child of either a mother or father in the family.

Again, I'm not arguing that a homosexual couple cannot provide a better home than a deadbeat heterosexual couple can. I'm arguing that a loving homosexual couple cannot provide a better upbringing than a loving heterosexual couple can.

A unique individual - someone that doesn't follow trends or not an average person.

https://thefatherlessgeneration.wordpre ... tatistics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I mean you might want to check the sources on the above link, bub I thought it was pretty common knowledge that children growing up in single parent families 'on average' do not do as well as those from stable family backgrounds.

Again, I have no issue with same sex couples adopting children, I just don't agree with same sex surrogacy.

I didn't think it'd cause this much outrage.

[yTib]

Again, I'm not arguing that a homosexual couple cannot provide a better home than a deadbeat heterosexual couple can. I'm arguing that a loving homosexual couple cannot provide a better upbringing than a loving heterosexual couple can.

why?

[Blackrod]

Why can't you understand that I'm arguing on the premises that same sex parents cannot offer the same benefits as traditional male/female parents can.

You've not pushed any argument that they can other than 'show love' - which as I've stated is vastly underestimating the complexity to bringing kids up is- it's more than that, there are intangibles that we don't know and I'm not convinced that suddenly having a generation of kids brought up of same sex parents is going to be beneficial - and you haven't shown any evidence that it will.

Instead you've turned to childish name-calling and ridiculous statements like the ones quoted.

They can do what the hell they want to do as long as it doesn't unnecessarily impact on peoples lives, which I believe denying a child a mother or father actually does.

Sounds sensible and reasonable to me.

[Blackrod]

No I've read everything you've written and i think you're wrong about a lot of it with your outdated opinion that's all.

There's nothing to suggest gay couples cannot raise children, nor to suggest they'd be worse than straight people.
You can talk about biology, nature, lack of studies etc, but quite simply you've got nothing to base your argument on.

Can a gay male couple explain puberty and periods to a daughter?
My straight male friend did it because he's a single parent and raised his 2 daughters on his own for nearly 10yrs.
He even learned how to plait hair etc.

Are you saying a gay man can't do exactly the same?
You'll struggle to convince anyone that your opinion is correct.

Same with lesbian women raising boys, what can't they do that a single female parent can?

Nothing, absolutely nothing is different.

I just cannot agree with that last sentence but you if course are entitled to your view.

[yTib]

sounds reasonable. ha.

when i was in prison in the nineties about 3 out of 10 of my peers couldn't read or write.

none of them were from same sex parental families. they were nearly all from single mother families.

this whole debate is an old fashioned, ignorant load of old crap.

[CoolClaret]

why?

If you'd look at the links Rowls posted or the link I posted, the vast majority of data shows that kids are better off in a stable loving male and female family....

For the record, I'm also not a supporter of heterosexual surrogacy.

This view has grown the more that I have been thinking about it the longer this thread has continued.

[yTib]

rowls.

ho ho.

[Sidney1st]

If you'd look at the links Rowls posted or the link I posted, the vast majority of data shows that kids are better off in a stable loving male and female family....

For the record, I'm also not a supporter of heterosexual surrogacy.

This view has grown the more that I have been thinking about it the longer this thread has continued.

The vast majority of date is in favour of heterosexual parental units because homosexual people have been prejudiced against both by society for a long time.

Changes in living memory means things have improved and equal parenting opportunities is the next step.
Give it 20yrs of homosexual parenting with data gathered and there is a possibility you'll get similar results.

Kids are better off with good parents, sexuality shouldn't even be an issue, nor should religion for people taking on very young children.

[martin_p]

If you'd look at the links Rowls posted or the link I posted, the vast majority of data shows that kids are better off in a stable loving male and female family....

I’ve looked at the links and your conclusions are wrong. Rowls’ links are about kids doing better with married couples over those cohabiting, nothing to do with same sex couples (and they can be married too).

The first of your links is to a study that has been discredited as flawed. The sample included gay parents who were actually part of a heterosexual couple when bringing up a child, discovered they were gay and the family split. So not actually data about being brought up by same sex couples.

Your second link is just about fatherless families, I.e. single mother families, again not about same sex couples.

[martin_p]

The vast majority of date is in favour of heterosexual parental units because homosexual people have been prejudiced against both by society for a long time.

Changes in living memory means things have improved and equal parenting opportunities is the next step.
Give it 20yrs of homosexual parenting with data gathered and there is a possibility you'll get similar results.

Kids are better off with good parents, sexuality shouldn't even be an issue, nor should religion for people taking on very young children.

There isn’t any data (other than the flawed study linked earlier) supporting the notion that heterosexual couples do better than gay couples bringing up children. In fact the studies that have been done support the fact that there’s no difference.

[Spiral]

I wonder if anyone posting on here was actually ever capable of comprehending the sexuality of their parents in those crucial formative years?

The idea of gender-specific role models is beyond nonsense. It seems to extend to "this is what it means to be a man/woman" which is such an increasingly anachronistic idea that it isn't beyond reason to presume that any child holding such views would likely be considered an outcast amongst their social group. I wonder how many people aghast at the notion of same-sex parents have actually spoken to today's young people? You're held in the same contempt most adults today have for those opposed to interracial marriage.

[Bfcboyo]

Backward Burnley!! My fella detests footy but I might just bring him with me in a few weeks if only to see the reaction from some of the neanderthals that live in this hovel

Don't bother. We will pitch fork and lynch none football fans that attend matches, live on the pitch as half time entertainment. Then eat them at full time whilst doing the sun god dance.

[Bordeauxclaret]

A separate mother and father that both have unique qualities and perspectives that are essential in bringing up a child optimally ffs.

What are these unique qualities that a same sex couple are presumably not able to have?

[Sidney1st]

What are these unique qualities that a same sex couple are presumably not able to have?

One has a willy and one has a muff obviously

[Bfcboyo]

I wonder if anyone posting on here was actually ever capable of comprehending the sexuality of their parents in those crucial formative years?

The idea of gender-specific role models is beyond nonsense. It seems to extend to "this is what it means to be a man/woman" which is such an increasingly anachronistic idea that it isn't beyond reason to presume that any child holding such views would likely be considered an outcast amongst their social group. I wonder how many people aghast at the notion of same-sex parents have actually spoken to today's young people? You're held in the same contempt most adults today have for those opposed to interracial marriage.

I'm hedging my bets on hundreds of thousands of years of the most dramatic success story in evolution stemming directly from those gender specific and family roles people are so quick to deem neanderthal.

Where might we be in an entirely homosexual world?
There appears to be a push in the west to promote and adopt the great gay outcoming of society and its acceptability. For me children should not see the homosexual world as it may influence them into a life choice they would have not otherwise made . Some people are born homosexual others choose to be, more of the latter in the west as it has a big media and trend push behind it.

[Bfcboyo]

Reckon you'd like him as he has the same queer obsession for handbag dogs as you have. Just don't be falling in love with him cos 12 fingered yokels with no teeth just isn't his thing. He prefers a blond haired male Adonis like myself

Modest as well. Good luck.

[Blackrod]

'The idea of gender specific role models is beyond nonsense'

This really is nonsense.

[Imploding Turtle]

What can a Mother provide her child that a Father cannot? And vice versa?

[Bfcboyo]

What can a Mother provide her child that a Father cannot? And vice versa?

Lets start with a womb to grow said embryo in.

[Imploding Turtle]

Lets start with a womb to grow said embryo in.

So same sex parents through surrogacy that are women are perfectly fine then?

[Bfcboyo]

So same sex parents through surrogacy that are women are perfectly fine then?

Did I say that? Or are you not listening to the amswer to your own question. Refer to my neanderthal post above on evolution to get a summary of my own personal opinion. Whilst you push your trendy no gender no sexuality society.

[ClaretAndJew]

We don't need evolution any more. We can do it ourselves in labs. We've transcended the need for it.

[TVC15]

Ok rather than trying to be clever tell us all what a mother can provide and a father cannot (and vice versa) after the child has been born.

Cos we are quite a lot of posts into this thread and still nobody has answered that with specifics other than meaningless words such as “unique”.

Enlighten us all with this as i’m dying to know. Instead you come out with boll-ocks like “no gender no sexuality society” which I do not believe anybody has said on this thread.

[Imploding Turtle]

Did I say that? Or are you not listening to the amswer to your own question. Refer to my neanderthal post above on evolution to get a summary of my own personal opinion. Whilst you push your trendy no gender no sexuality society.

It's funny how in criticising me for reading more into your answer than you claim is there that you go off on some fantasy about soemthing that had nothing to do with anything that i even remotely said.

How about you actually answer the question i was asking? But to make it more clear for you i'll reword it.

In raising a child what can a Mother provide the child that a Father cannot? If same-sex parenting is somehow worst than opposite sex parenting then provide examples of parenting skills that only one gender can possess.

[Bfcboyo]

We don't need evolution any more. We can do it ourselves in labs. We've transcended the need for it.

We have peaked in our evolution it is downhill from here. Bring on a technology blackout and we can all look back and laugh at this strange millisecond of the planets history where we played with nature and entertained every oddity feasible as being normal.