2.7 Million Brexiteers Have Changed to Remain

[Damo]

’’I voted to take a financial hit for the benefit of my grand children.’

Considering your children are at school, I think you taking a financial hit directly makes your children poorer. I think if you thought your children would have been better of, as opposed to your non-existent grandchildren, as a result of the vote then surely you would have said so.

So I didn't say I voted for my children to be poorer?
You just jumped to a conclusion that it would despite me explaining that I could cut back on the odd luxury that only me and possibly my Mrs benefits from.
Thanks for clearing that up

[Lancasterclaret]

Then its all a colossal waste of time and we can all joke about it*

*in our caves as we fight as guerillas against the Chinese take over of the world

[Rileybobs]

Idiomatically, of course. Or are you the one who hears the sentence "he was a mile offside" and points out that as the pitch is only 120 yards long and a mile is 1,760 yards then he couldn't have been a mile offside because he would have been off the pitch?

Another terrible example dsr, you must try harder. Using the term ‘a mile offside’ is a wild exaggeration which can only be interpreted as such.

If Damo had meant that he thought his children would have been better off then why wouldn’t he have said it? It makes no sense whatsoever. In fact, it’s only since you mentioned that he may not have literally meant his grandchildren that he’s suggested he wasn’t using the term grandchildren literally.

[Rileybobs]

So I didn't say I voted for my children to be poorer?
You just jumped to a conclusion that it would despite me explaining that I could cut back on the odd luxury that only me and possibly my Mrs benefits from.
Thanks for clearing that up

It would be a lot easier if you had just:

a.) admitted that making your grandchildren better off wasn’t why you voted leave

or

b.) admitted it was a daft thing to say

[Damo]

You have explained yourself why I couldn't possibly have been talking literally about my grandchildren

[Lancasterclaret]

None of them have admitted that Brexit might not be what was promised before the referendum so good look with that one Rileybobs

[aggi]

(e.g. in my tiny suburb EU data protection laws mean there cannot be council CCTV in the centre because a person HAS to monitor the feed at all times, unaffordably, and shop crime is rife as a result).

I'm intrigued by this, I can't think of anything under GDPR (I assume that's what you're referring to, although they're not significantly different to the old UK data protection rules in this case) that would cause that. The opposite tends to be true, that real-time monitoring is discouraged because of the extra rules that need to be complied with.

[KateR]

a good thread clearly demonstrating lot of people hypothesizing about things they don't know will happen, but being caught up in a discussion that will have many different out comes for different people, the effect of leaving will be different on a London banker to a Cornwall to a fisherman in Fleetwood. So while the same will happen to the country as a whole individuals and working groups will be affected differently and essentially how the country was split in large tracts of voters. Same argument for Londoners and Scotland, however we can't chose various parts of the country or various occupations to pick whether to stay or leave, we are all in the same boat and the vote says we are leaving. The sooner many posters get beyond this and accept we're leaving and what can they perhaps do regarding themselves and future generations of their families the better as far as I am concerned. I can see no benefit arguing or putting forward individual thoughts, usually based around what they read and who they chose to believe.

In the end all decisions will come back to the economy and financials, in regard to this situation some will be of benefit and some will not, personally I believe it is better for the country as a whole to leave and that if the economy does improve there will be a trickle down effect to the majority of the people. I also admit the converse if true if the economy goes down, but it will never be a steady economy that stays the same always, we have always had ups and downs and mainly from outside influences beyond Europe's control even Look at the pound and the stock market going back over 5 year blocks including before we joined Europe to see the changes, none of them were Brexit initiated.

[KateR]

went to News NOW Burnley as I do several times a week to view any news regarding BFC, below is now at the top and many of the actual links are now blocked on this site, not a good advert for remainers I think but willing for he usual suspects to tell me how little I know and why this is good and how we should blindly follow and stay in Europe so they can dictate what laws the UK should follow.

The EU is threatening your access to online news.

By making news headlines from certain publications pay-per-view, Article 11 of the Copyright Directive will diminish choice and limit your freedom to share online, compromising the free flow of information NewsNow is part of and democracy relies on.

MEPs vote next Wednesday. You still have time to act.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yup, if we all believed a little bit more this would be magically better for everyone.

[RocketLawnChair]

Nearly all, No In fact all Brexit threads on this board end up with somebody trying to prove they are smarter/ cleverer than somebody else and actually end up having **** all to do with Brexit or with the original debating point on which the thread was started.

In the words of the late great 'Barry Chuckle' "too me, too you"

[Chip Harrison]

Nearly all, No In fact all Brexit threads on this board end up with somebody trying to prove they are smarter/ cleverer than somebody else and actually end up having **** all to do with Brexit or with the original debating point on which the thread was started.

In the words of the late great 'Barry Chuckle' "too me, too you"

I'm not trying to be smarter/cleverer than you, but it should be "to me, to you". (Sorry RLC, couldn't resist).

[RocketLawnChair]

I'm not trying to be smarter/cleverer than you, but it should be "to me, to you". (Sorry RLC, couldn't resist).

My grammar is shite my wallet is full no need to apologise.

[KateR]

Yup, if we all believed a little bit more this would be magically better for everyone.

the only thing I would ask you to believe is that we are leaving, beyond that the rest is up to you, I would be happy to hear your thoughts on what you are personally doing or preparing to do in anticipation of leaving.

continual semi smart replies and dogma around a second referendum are quite boring after I have read your posts (and many others) at the 5th time this subject comes up. I get it you don't believe we should leave but you and millions of others need to get past that dream and start facing reality instead of wishing, because it wont be long now. However if you keep wishing to spout the same thoughts you have right up to the minute before we leave then feel free, that's your prerogative

[RocketLawnChair]

I would be happy to hear your thoughts on what you are personally doing or preparing to do in anticipation of leaving.

Buying tins of beans and packets of paracetamol...

[Lancasterclaret]

Fine

You must have missed all those posts were I accepted the result.

Completely understandable, I get that reading stuff you don't want to read isn't your thing.

[KateR]

Fine

You must have missed all those posts were I accepted the result.

Completely understandable, I get that reading stuff you don't want to read isn't your thing.

I might not be as smart as you and IT but I do read both sides, and usually get better information a lot of times from remainers because they post more, mostly all the same stuff mind, then I try to understand and sift chaff from the wheat, am sure I miss a lot overall but have formed some ideas, main one being we are leaving and have taken some steps accordingly.

However stockpiling is not one of them as another poster suggests, which I find anyone/including the present government trying to do a rather silly idea

[Lancasterclaret]

But that doesn't change the fact that we are heading into something with no evidence other than a very British "we'll be alright" attitude.

I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out when people on here make stuff up and try to pretend its fact.

[RocketLawnChair]

I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out when people on here make stuff up and try to pretend its fact.

Best done independently is that LC.

[Lancasterclaret]

You haven't got a lot of choice on a messageboard.

And whether people like it or not, I don't back down to people trying to stop me posting about how **** Brexit is.

No point in stockpiling. if it gets to a "No deal" scenario, that will be the least of our worries.

[RingoMcCartney]

But that doesn't change the fact that we are heading into something with no evidence other than a very British "we'll be alright" attitude.

I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out when people on here make stuff up and try to pretend its fact.

If only you'd have been around when we told the country was just joining a "trading block, we'll be alright," to point out it would be nothing of the sort.

[Lancasterclaret]

Point taken, but lots of stuff said by the politicians who mattered at the time suggesting that it was just the beginning and saying that before the vote was taken.

If only we had that level of honesty now eh?

[jlup1980]

Anyone else bored of all this yet?!

Brexit may very well have been an amazing opportunity for this country but our government has put the final nail in the coffin where that kind of thinking is concerned. However, a second referendum isn't the answer. If Remain won we'd just end up with even more civil unrest and ultimately we'd end up getting more bent over by the EU as we try to negotiate our way back into Europe. They'd make an example of us and rightly so... and this is coming from a Remain voter.

Basically we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. It's a great big mess of unparalleled proportions which is only going to get messier before we leave... and then it'll probably get messier again. We just need to ride it out until 2028, then everything will be hunky dory again.

[Lancasterclaret]

My kids will be 21 and 19 in 2028

Forgive me for thinking that wouldn't be the best start to their working lives if we have ten years of chaos.

[KateR]

But that doesn't change the fact that we are heading into something with no evidence other than a very British "we'll be alright" attitude.

I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out when people on here make stuff up and try to pretend its fact.

both sentences go hand in hand for me, totally agree we are moving in to something we have no evidence of, exactly the same as when we joined all those years ago. Therefore both sides try to highlight benefits and failures because they don't know until it's agreed what deal we are leaving under and through out things as though they are facts.

Must be 100's of claims, some by people who are supposed to know and advise the country, some which have done 100% U turns on what they originally said, again I try to see the major points and how it effects the country and myself plus my family. I then try to adjust to it and make changes but only the future will reveal what is real and what is myth.

I think there are more potential dangerous things ahead to resolve that could harm the UK and consequently my family than Brexit, but that's for another thread, for now I do what I can.

Am pleased to see we are coming to more of an accord as I agree with many of your recent posts/thoughts, well two anyhow

[Lancasterclaret]

Just google "Operation Yellowhammer" if you think this isn't going to be an issue.

[Lancasterclaret]

If there is a deal, then we will be a lot worse off, but that will probably be about it.

Course, thats just from an economic point of view. That doesn't take into account the dangers to the break up of the UK for example.

if there isn't a deal, then we will have economic issues, plus all the ones that are going to be problematic plus the economy ones.

[KateR]

I read a report as you suggested, am very please to see this government looking at all angles of what the deal might be, I'd be a lot more concerned to read they were not planning for a no deal.

One question for you, do you think that the 27 other nations are all happy to see us leaving, or maybe just a few, or conversely will they all or a few be dreading us leaving and the effect on there economies. Plus would a no deal be a good scenario for the 27 and only harm Britain?

[Lancasterclaret]

Of course it damages them as well, but not as much individually as they are in an economic union.

Everyone wants a deal (I think) but the UK electorate were promised a deal that is impossible for the EU to accept because of the UK red lines and the UK effectively promised the UK electorate that we could "cherry pick" what we wanted from the EU.

That was rubbish in 2014, 2016 and even more so now.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Someone else has mentioned civil unrest again further up.

Why would there be civil unrest if there was another vote?

[RingoMcCartney]

Point taken, but lots of stuff said by the politicians who mattered at the time suggesting that it was just the beginning and saying that before the vote was taken.

If only we had that level of honesty now eh?

Remoaners 2018 - "If only people hadn't lied we'd never had left"

Brexiteers 2019 - "Thank God people didn't fall for the lies or we never would have left"

Eurosceptics 1975 - " If only people hadn't fallen for the lies, we never would have joined"

[quoonbeatz]

I'm intrigued by this, I can't think of anything under GDPR (I assume that's what you're referring to, although they're not significantly different to the old UK data protection rules in this case) that would cause that. The opposite tends to be true, that real-time monitoring is discouraged because of the extra rules that need to be complied with.

i doubt its true. they might have to have someone monitoring the system for hacking etc but not monitoring the feed.

[Jakubclaret]

My kids will be 21 and 19 in 2028

Forgive me for thinking that wouldn't be the best start to their working lives if we have ten years of chaos.

Think it's hilarious, how some sections of society are prepared in advance to consider the so called disadvantages of Brexit with regards to their children's future prosperity, as adults we also have a responsibility to ensure our children have a decent upbringing regardless of the so called negatives of Brexit which you perceive, in 10 years times will we have a epidemic of underachievers from society with Brexit solely to blame, it's a cheap excuse for our parental inadequacies if we do!

[Lancasterclaret]

I can't speak for your parental inadequacies to be honest.

Pretty basic to most of us that ten years of chaos isn't good.

[RingoMcCartney]

I can't speak for your parental inadequacies to be honest.

Pretty basic to most of us that ten years of chaos isn't good.

Agreed.

But it's not guaranteed to happen.......

[Dark Cloud]

I haven't.

[Chip Harrison]

Gulp!

Sky News today.
Labour MP Ben Bradshaw, a supporter of the People's Vote campaign, said: "With the Operation Yellowhammer revelation, we now know the government is preparing for Brexit in the same way they'd approach catastrophes like flooding, a disease outbreak or a terrorist attack.

"This is not what anyone voted for in 2016."

He added: "We know from this leak that it will be already-stretched budgets in vital areas like health, education and defence that will be forced to bear the cost of this government's total failure to deal with the mess of Brexit.

"It's time for the people of this country to take back control of this process."

Last month, the government released the first tranche of no-deal Brexit "technical notices", which raised fears for shoppers, farmers, businesses, NHS patients and UK expats over the impact of Britain leaving the EU without an agreement.

[South West Claret.]

I haven't read all the posts on here but I expect someone has already suggested an "Informed Referendum" which I totally agree with... that's when the Government have actually reached and agreement that is.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its not, but its a bigger possibility because of what we are not doing at the moment, which is making sure it doesn't.

Until the uber-Brexiteers drop their demands about what a Brexit must look like, then we will blunder along into the dangers of more and more chaos.

There has to be a compromise somewhere as nothing on the table at the moment has the required support for this not to continue for the foreseeable future.

And even the the idiots in the ERG are aware that vast swathes of the electorate won't forget it if it does go down the pan.

[Jakubclaret]

I can't speak for your parental inadequacies to be honest.

Pretty basic to most of us that ten years of chaos isn't good.

All I'm simply saying is your children's destiny is in your hands or anybody's childrens parents to a large degree regardless of any regime.

[RocketLawnChair]

Until the uber-Brexiteers drop their demands about what a Brexit must look like, then we will blunder along into the dangers of more and more chaos.

There has to be a compromise somewhere as nothing on the table at the moment has the required support for this not to continue for the foreseeable future.

I agree with this and the suggestion the uber-brexiteers MUST drop their demands, BUT this could only work if the uber-remainers ACCEPTED the result of the referendum. Then we may have a compromise. As somebody who sees benefits on both sides of the debate working together is the way forward.

[RingoMcCartney]

Gulp!

Sky News today.
Labour MP Ben Bradshaw, a supporter of the People's Vote campaign, said: "With the Operation Yellowhammer revelation, we now know the government is preparing for Brexit in the same way they'd approach catastrophes like flooding, a disease outbreak or a terrorist attack.

"This is not what anyone voted for in 2016."

He added: "We know from this leak that it will be already-stretched budgets in vital areas like health, education and defence that will be forced to bear the cost of this government's total failure to deal with the mess of Brexit.

"It's time for the people of this country to take back control of this process."

Last month, the government released the first tranche of no-deal Brexit "technical notices", which raised fears for shoppers, farmers, businesses, NHS patients and UK expats over the impact of Britain leaving the EU without an agreement.

Best to prepare in advance then.

BRING EM OUT EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT DEAD YET!

BRING EM OUT EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT DEAD YET!!

BRING EM OUT EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT DEAD YET!!


Some people!

[biggles]

why do remainers think they know what leavers voted for? i voted to leave simply so we would not continue to be controlled by, and that's what it is, the EU.

remainers also seem to ignore the fact that if we remain in the EU it won't be the EU that exists today. it will be a federal state with all that entails. it's evidient that the EU [which essentially means Germany and France] make decisions which benefit continental europe to the detriment of the uk. i really don't want to give them the opportunity to keep screwing us over ad infinitum.

also, is this 'i voted to leave but regret it now' a new psychological, subliminal even, tactic by remainers to gently persuade us leavers to change our minds too? i feel that nothing is beyond them.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I'm intrigued by this, I can't think of anything under GDPR (I assume that's what you're referring to, although they're not significantly different to the old UK data protection rules in this case) that would cause that. The opposite tends to be true, that real-time monitoring is discouraged because of the extra rules that need to be complied with.

I've checked into this, my information comes from a local newsletter pushed through my door that I read last night, so there is a chance that when they say that the council won't install CCTV because of the costs involved of compulsorily monitoring it, they actually mean monitoring the use of it, the requests, the storage, the paperwork - ensuring individuals identity is protected. Apologies for any ambiguity but I'm still not certain of the exact reasons.

Regardless, it is GDPR that has caused the council to raise the threshold for new CCTV installations, meaning our shops will continue to get robbed (but we are a small and insignificant suburb).

I suppose my point to nil_desp is still the same, that I am also judging Brexit on local issues such as this as well as issues that don't affect me as closely like the Irish border and our standing in the world. I feel the myriad of regulations on things diminish the quality of my life. It's a personal choice how we feel about these things, we should respect the things that each of us find important.

[nil_desperandum]

why do remainers think they know what leavers voted for? i voted to leave simply so we would not continue to be controlled by, and that's what it is, the EU.
:

You actually make the "remainers" point quite well.
Remainers don't claim that they know what leavers voted for, because the leavers can't agree themselves.
What "remainers" do claim is that there wasn't a single reason why "leavers" voted the way they did, and therefore there is no agreement / consensus on what "leavers" actually want, (other of course than leaving at any cost).
You state clearly why you voted to leave, and that's fair enough, but if you asked a sample of about 10 "leavers" why they voted to leave, you would get a wide range of answers, ranging from immigration, to the economy, to fisheries, to farming, to sovereignty, to shaking up the establishment or (in Boris's case) for purely selfish political opportunism and personal advancement.
That's the problem that has dogged the govt. all along. They have no clear vision, and the referendum didn't really tell them what the leavers want.
e.g. to remain in the Customs Union or not, or how to solve the Irish border issue.

[Greenmile]

All I'm simply saying is your children's destiny is in your hands or anybody's childrens parents to a large degree regardless of any regime.

So if, for example, a young child growing up in North Korea doesn’t make as much of his life as your kids (or mine), that’s the parents’ fault, is it?

[biggles]

You actually make the "remainers" point quite well.
Remainers don't claim that they know what leavers voted for, because the leavers can't agree themselves.
What "remainers" do claim is that there wasn't a single reason why "leavers" voted the way they did, and therefore there is no agreement / consensus on what "leavers" actually want, (other of course than leaving at any cost).
You state clearly why you voted to leave, and that's fair enough, but if you asked a sample of about 10 "leavers" why they voted to leave, you would get a wide range of answers, ranging from immigration, to the economy, to fisheries, to farming, to sovereignty, to shaking up the establishment or (in Boris's case) for purely selfish political opportunism and personal advancement.
That's the problem that has dogged the govt. all along. They have no clear vision, and the referendum didn't really tell them what the leavers want.
e.g. to remain in the Customs Union or not, or how to solve the Irish border issue.

but surely, if you asked a dozen remainers why they voted to remain you would get a bag-full of differing answers, as there are innumerable issues in the question. everyone has their own agenda and i would imagine that many remainers voted so for their own personal reasons and to their, perceived, advantage eg they might want to retire to Benidorm or they tremble at the though of having to queue for an extra 10 minutes at Alicante airport. from what i've heard and read from both sides it seems that leavers are more concerned about the future of the UK than remainers [and also have more faith in the UK's ability to not only survive but to prosper without the EU dictating what we can and cannot do at every turn]. whereas remainers seem to be more interested in their own personal agenda.

[RMutt]

It doesn’t matter that remainers have different reasons for wanting to stay because they are all still voting for the same thing, maintaining the status quo. Leavers on the other hand needed to agree on what they wanted after brexit. The fact that they all wanted and still want different things is the root of the problem.

[Lancasterclaret]

Pretty sure all remainers want to, you know, remain

[burnleymik]

but if you asked a sample of about 10 "leavers" why they voted to leave, you would get a wide range of answers, ranging from immigration, to the economy, to fisheries, to farming, to sovereignty, to shaking up the establishment

Isn't that exactly the point? It's like when you vote in the GE, you do it on whatever your personal reasons are, not everyone votes for the same reasons and because we all have differing reasons some remainers think that we don't know what we voted for.

I challenge any remainer to tell me, accurately, what the EU will look like in 5 years. It's a political behemoth and at this point, virtually unstoppable.

It's own defence forces. More power over countries who don't fall into line with their principles. More centralisation. Expansion. Even, and this is quite terrifying, the talk of Centralising Taxation, with the "harmonisation of European taxation".

As the EU grows, it will want/need more money and more power.