Fully Electric Cars

[Hapag Lloyd]

Jack any car up on a position that isn't the jacking point will probably cause damage GIADJ ... I think the person making the statement that you can't jack up an EV doesn't know his jack from his jill

But please folks looking at some posts on here ... lets not descend into arguments on yet another thread ...

[Zlatan]

Whenever I look at changing my car I look at the total cost of ownership and I have got myself a spreadsheet that does the donkey work for me to compare the various cars based upon today's real life values etc and also empirical data from my own car as I record all my fuel fill ups in an app for analysis.

So, for example, my current car (2016 Honda Civic Diesel) cost me £14k to buy; approx. £3k (so far) in servicing and tyres; and I know exactly how much fuel has cost over the past 4-5 years (about £10k) all to do around 95k miles.

The break-even comparison for me if I were to change to an EV (I used a Ford Mustang MachE for comparison) from this current car in terms of mileage is approximately 460,000 miles before the EV works out cheaper per mile.

If I took a brand-new list price Diesel Civic (no longer available but was approx £24k last time I looked) and used the same running costs as mine (similar engine so should be similar) the break-even mileage is obviously lower, but it still gets to 360,000 miles before the EV is cheaper per mile.

Now I know that's buying the car out right, and most people will lease their nice new EV, but that isn't always an option for all. Also, when you consider the number of miles to break even on the cost per mile is that high, do we even know if the batteries will last that long before needing replacement? I know my Civic will get to at least £150k with few problems providing I maintain it, can the EV's do similar? (Genuine question?)

I am wanting to change away from an ICE car, but until it works for me in terms of cost per mile over the life of the car - I can't justify it or even consider it.

[Mala591]

A 2 year old EV will probably have lost around £20,000 in value (from the new price), try putting that in your spreadsheet and let us know the results. Thanks Zlatan

[clarethomer]

A 2 year old EV will probably have lost around £20,000 in value (from the new price), try putting that in your spreadsheet and let us know the results. Thanks Zlatan

I think you are just making stuff up with comments like that.

The residual values of most cars have been minimal because of supply chain issues.

As an example - one of my EVs has lost no money if I was to take it to WBAC.

My other EV has increased in value as it comes up to 2 years of ownership.

Im pretty sure any ICE car that was 2 year old and average mileage for age would have held its value much better than it once did.

[Rileybobs]

Whenever I look at changing my car I look at the total cost of ownership and I have got myself a spreadsheet that does the donkey work for me to compare the various cars based upon today's real life values etc and also empirical data from my own car as I record all my fuel fill ups in an app for analysis.

So, for example, my current car (2016 Honda Civic Diesel) cost me £14k to buy; approx. £3k (so far) in servicing and tyres; and I know exactly how much fuel has cost over the past 4-5 years (about £10k) all to do around 95k miles.

The break-even comparison for me if I were to change to an EV (I used a Ford Mustang MachE for comparison) from this current car in terms of mileage is approximately 460,000 miles before the EV works out cheaper per mile.

If I took a brand-new list price Diesel Civic (no longer available but was approx £24k last time I looked) and used the same running costs as mine (similar engine so should be similar) the break-even mileage is obviously lower, but it still gets to 360,000 miles before the EV is cheaper per mile.

Now I know that's buying the car out right, and most people will lease their nice new EV, but that isn't always an option for all. Also, when you consider the number of miles to break even on the cost per mile is that high, do we even know if the batteries will last that long before needing replacement? I know my Civic will get to at least £150k with few problems providing I maintain it, can the EV's do similar? (Genuine question?)

I am wanting to change away from an ICE car, but until it works for me in terms of cost per mile over the life of the car - I can't justify it or even consider it.

Out of interest Zlatan, what electricity rate are you using for your comparison? Is the Mustang really comparable to the Civic or could you have looked at a cheaper model?

Either way, I suspect that an EV probably won’t be for you, but I’m just checking to see how fair the comparisons are.

[Zlatan]

Out of interest Zlatan, what electricity rate are you using for your comparison? Is the Mustang really comparable to the Civic or could you have looked at a cheaper model?

Either way, I suspect that an EV probably won’t be for you, but I’m just checking to see how fair the comparisons are.

I used your 2.5p/ mile rate - to be generous, but from looking on t’interweb I fear I was too generous. I’ll certainly slap the figures in for something like a Leaf or a VW iD3 as well to compare, after lunch

Of course it’s an easy spreadsheet to do, feel free to make your own

Edit - chose the Mach E for the range and price as it’s cheaper than a Tesla with good range

[clarethomer]

So, for example, my current car (2016 Honda Civic Diesel) cost me £14k to buy; approx. £3k (so far) in servicing and tyres; and I know exactly how much fuel has cost over the past 4-5 years (about £10k) all to do around 95k miles.

The break-even comparison for me if I were to change to an EV (I used a Ford Mustang MachE for comparison) from this current car in terms of mileage is approximately 460,000 miles before the EV works out cheaper per mile.

I am wanting to change away from an ICE car, but until it works for me in terms of cost per mile over the life of the car - I can't justify it or even consider it.

Just to do a rough like for like comparison.

2016 Honda Civic v 2016 Nissan Leaf that costs you £14k (30k on clock).

I will let you put the figures up of the civic but the leaf would cost you to do 95k

£0 - road tax (civic may be same also?)
£2035 electricity costs @7.5p per kWh and a 3.5 miles per kWh consumption.
£1000 maximum in servicing.
£1000 for your home charger.
£250 more for insurance over 5 years given leaf insurance group is 20 v 15 of civic.

Assume tyres will be similar cost.

Therefore the £10k you have spent on diesel is £5700 more than you would have spent on the leaf over that timeframe.

The residual cost of each car is subjective but £5k is 133k on a 2015 today compared to £9k on a leaf that has 133k on the clock.

To me that shows that when you compare as like for like, the maths do stand up.

[Zlatan]

Just to do a rough like for like comparison.

2016 Honda Civic v 2016 Nissan Leaf that costs you £14k (30k on clock).

I will let you put the figures up of the civic but the leaf would cost you to do 95k

£0 - road tax (civic may be same also?)
£2035 electricity costs @7.5p per kWh and a 3.5 miles per kWh consumption.
£1000 maximum in servicing.
£1000 for your home charger.
£250 more for insurance over 5 years given leaf insurance group is 20 v 15 of civic.

Assume tyres will be similar cost.

Therefore the £10k you have spent on diesel is £5700 more than you would have spent on the leaf over that timeframe.

The residual cost of each car is subjective but £5k is 133k on a 2015 today compared to £9k on a leaf that has 133k on the clock.

To me that shows that when you compare as like for like, the maths do stand up.

Indeed, but I already own the civic and a leaf won’t do 450 round trip in a day to watch Burnley every other weekend

And why do a rough comparison when I can do an exact one?

[Rileybobs]

I used your 2.5p/ mile rate - to be generous, but from looking on t’interweb I fear I was too generous. I’ll certainly slap the figures in for something like a Leaf or a VW iD3 as well to compare, after lunch

Of course it’s an easy spreadsheet to do, feel free to make your own

Edit - chose the Mach E for the range and price as it’s cheaper than a Tesla with good range

Seems like you've probably over-specced the comparable model to be fair. I think my 2.5p per mile seems there or thereabouts on the model of car and energy tariff I'm looking at.

Don't worry, I've got my own spreadsheet, but it's purely to compare my own situation which seems completely different to yours, and I should be £2k per year better off.

[clarethomer]

Indeed, but I already own the civic and a leaf won’t do 450 round trip in a day to watch Burnley every other weekend

And why do a rough comparison when I can do an exact one?

You're right, its probably not the car for you with those requirements, but that wasn't known to me.

If you did a comparison of a 2016 civic v 2022 diesel car, your cost analysis would probably be as equally bleak though.

The issue for you is that you can't get a like for like car that is used and does the 450 miles with minimal inconvenience yet without going to the premium model EVs.

When you can do a like for like comparison then that's probably where it would make sense.

I didn't have the luxury of spending hours of time compiling a spreadsheet but even though you have, I suspect your workings will be as accurate as mine in reality

[clarethomer]

I used your 2.5p/ mile rate - to be generous, but from looking on t’interweb I fear I was too generous. I’ll certainly slap the figures in for something like a Leaf or a VW iD3 as well to compare, after lunch

Of course it’s an easy spreadsheet to do, feel free to make your own

Edit - chose the Mach E for the range and price as it’s cheaper than a Tesla with good range

The Mach E according the EV database has a real world range of 4.08 miles per kWh (based on combined mild weather driving). Based on the a 7.5p per kWh tariff, that equates to 1.83p per mile cost.

However the ID3 has 4.31 miles per kWh in mild weather of combined use driving (1.74p per mile cost)

Clearly averages mean nothing and your routes/driving styles can all impact the figures quoted by EV database, however these figures are close to what I achieve from our cars so have no reason to believe they are unrealistic.

[Zlatan]

I used your 2.5p/ mile rate - to be generous, but from looking on t’interweb I fear I was too generous. I’ll certainly slap the figures in for something like a Leaf or a VW iD3 as well to compare, after lunch

Of course it’s an easy spreadsheet to do, feel free to make your own

Edit - chose the Mach E for the range and price as it’s cheaper than a Tesla with good range

threw a Nissan Leaf (1 year old less than 2k miles on the clock at £24k purchase price - which was a comparable aged car as my Civic when I got it) in for another comparison and the Leaf was cheaper after 100k miles. Had it been available for that 5 years ago I may have considered it then, but probably would have still chosen the Civic due to my personal needs (long round trips in a day)

The bottom line here is that currently EV just cant cater to everyone's individual needs, I wish it did for me but it just doesn't (quite yet). It will do at some point, but by then (maybe another 3-4 years -my Civic should last that long hopefully) there may well be other alternatives available too - or at least I hope so, something that doesn't have range issues etc.

I did like the look of the Ariel Hipercar - that's breaking barriers albeit as a top end development vehicle. For those who dont know, its uses a tiny jet engine as a very fuel efficient range extender for its small on board battery. Very costly now, but the concept is great. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/feat ... l-hipercar

[IanMcL]

'I did like the look of the Ariel Hipercar - that's breaking barriers albeit as a top end development vehicle. For those who dont know, its uses a tiny jet engine as a very fuel efficient range extender for its small on board battery. Very costly now, but the concept is great.'

How does a jet engine make it electric?

[Bosscat]

'I did like the look of the Ariel Hipercar - that's breaking barriers albeit as a top end development vehicle. For those who dont know, its uses a tiny jet engine as a very fuel efficient range extender for its small on board battery. Very costly now, but the concept is great.'

How does a jet engine make it electric?

Interesting reading ... they think it might undesteer a bit under full power

20221014_125247.jpg (388.39 KiB) Viewed 2882 times

[G0foste]

Just got back from a business trip to Warwick from Leeds in the Leaf. Got down no problem at all, had to have a very quick stop at Tamworth service station as was touch and whether would madeit, the charger here was working and available.

The charger at the Hotel were the meeting was held,
was faulty. Set off back and stop at the first service station which was Leicester. Both charger were broke and wrapped in tape. Only had 9 miles left so panic set in. Didn't have enough charge to make it to the next junction.

Went to speak to the staff, who told me there were an access road (authorised only) where I could get to the service station on the other side. The also informed me the chargers have not been working for at least weeks. The charger were owned by the Highway agency. Absolutely D
disgraceful , can you imagine the petrol pumps not being operational for two weeks and not being fixed??

Used the access road, however these charger were also broke n and taped up. At least the junction was only 1.8mile away on the south bound. Had to go to Fosse Park to charge up a tiny bit (only 7kw charge), got enough charge to go to the Tesco 20mins away with a 50kw charger.

Should have been home by 18:00 got home at 20:15. Only spent £15 on Petrol for 330 mile round trip howevwr
took 2hr 15 longer. Long trips are always fun and games, the pro and cons of electric cars
(especially those cars with a small range).

[CrosspoolClarets]

Just worked out my new Octopus Go rate after my fix ends next month. Just leccy.

Is £770 per year currently.
Would be £2600 on a standard variable tariff.
£2100 on Octopus Go. Will take it.

To top it all off my charger Anderson A2’s company has just gone bust so the smart charger that I schedule from 12:30-4:30 will soon become a dumb charger because it needs their servers. Well, it didn’t really top it off, that was my taxes going up by 6% today. Ho hum.

So the moral of the story is that the fantastic economics of electric cars aren’t quite as fantastic now, however, if I break down the above rise in costs, £1000 of the rise is for peak rate, i.e. not the car, £330 of the rise is the car. So maybe not as bad as it first appears in terms of car economics and probably not a decision changer with these energy prices as long as people have a smart tariff.

[Nori1958]

It wouldn't matter to me whether electric cars are cheaper to run or not, but until the infrastructure and technology improves massively I wouldn't touch one
At present I can travel as far as I want knowing there will always be a petrol station within striking distance, I don't want to have to plan every journey around where there is a charging point, and even then not knowing if said charging point would even be available without a long wait.

[Mala591]

A small electric car as a second car for ‘running around town’ makes perfect sense if you don’t want to poison the air for your children/grandchildren.

[kindonesque]

BMW movie EV Mini production to China. Tragic for Oxford area and the country.

[Claretitus]

China is going to be THE place for EV production though. Tesla is currently building the worlds’ largest car plant there, for their Golf sized car. MG are also coming on in leaps and bounds with EV’s, and various companies are investing in China, with battery producing plants. It’s going to be the main player.

[dsr]

China is going to be THE place for EV production though. Tesla is currently building the worlds’ largest car plant there, for their Golf sized car. MG are also coming on in leaps and bounds with EV’s, and various companies are investing in China, with battery producing plants. It’s going to be the main player.

Not only cheap labour, but factory fuel costs are probably cheaper because they're sitting on a pile of coal which they don't hesitate to burn. Ironically, for an electric car maker.

[Casper]

https://www.iaindale.com/articles/shoul ... experience

[Belgianclaret]

Mine has a 450 mile range (350 effective) - it's magic

[Wokingclaret]

https://www.iaindale.com/articles/shoul ... experience

Gawd

Hmmm, seems I'm doing everyone a favour by not getting one, at the silly prices they are. How is the national grid going to cope when millions eventually get one. It will go BOOM.

[Lancasterclaret]

Gawd

Hmmm, seems I'm doing everyone a favour by not getting one, at the silly prices they are. How is the national grid going to cope when millions eventually get one. It will go BOOM.

Not even this lot will neglect the infrastructure to that extent

[Wokingclaret]

They have already, National Grid have been threatening black outs

https://news.sky.com/story/prepare-for- ... s-12723349

[Lancasterclaret]

They have already, National Grid have been threatening black outs

https://news.sky.com/story/prepare-for- ... s-12723349

Yeah, but I thinking more of the future when the majority have electric cars

Course, they'd have to get a move on!

[Lowbankclaret]

https://www.iaindale.com/articles/shoul ... experience

Exactly my conclusion. Having spoken to several electric car owners who have visited the car sales place I help at.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://www.iaindale.com/articles/shoul ... experience

As per the article, I tend to notice people treating ev charging points at supermarkets like a normal parking space, so they'll do their shop, go have a sit down in the cafe/Costa and spend over an hour there without taking into consideration other road users.

Annoyingly, they're probably not doing more than 20-30 miles per day so they really don't need to use supermarket charging points.

[IanMcL]

As per the article, I tend to notice people treating ev charging points at supermarkets like a normal parking space, so they'll do their shop, go have a sit down in the cafe/Costa and spend over an hour there without taking into consideration other road users.

Annoyingly, they're probably not doing more than 20-30 miles per day so they really don't need to use supermarket charging points.

As long as they are charging, not an issue. If ICEing a spot then let their tyres down...or get the supermarket to get them announced over the tannoy.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

As long as they are charging, not an issue. If ICEing a spot then let their tyres down...or get the supermarket to get them announced over the tannoy.

It is an issue if they've got home chargers and are spending over an hour in a supermarket carrying on like it's a normal parking space.

The average person does 25 miles ish a day, they don't really need to keep on constantly charging their cars everyone they leave the house.

[IanMcL]

It is an issue if they've got home chargers and are spending over an hour in a supermarket carrying on like it's a normal parking space.

The average person does 25 miles ish a day, they don't really need to keep on constantly charging their cars everyone they leave the house.

It isn't an issue. They are there to attract customers and provide a service. Just one of those things. Often filled but never mind. It is not supposed to be a long haul charging bay for hours on end. They are only 7kw chargers.

[bfcjg]

This new technology could be a real game changer re clean electricity generation and subsequent storage for all modes of electrical dependent appliances.
Be interesting if it is scaled down for domestic.
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/rooft ... 08603.html

[Darthlaw]

VED coming from April 2025

Factor that into your calculations, folks.

[AmbleClaret]

VED coming from April 2025

Factor that into your calculations, folks.

Fancy that,another U turn.

[Darthlaw]

Was plain to see that they'd have to fill the black hole created from lost VED revenue, caused by the encouraged migration from ICE to EV's.

Question is, as they are making it 'fairer' to owners of CO2 emitting vehicles, what will VED be based on in 2025?

[Stayingup]

The rare earth metals to make these 240 Volt batteries, Lithium, Cobalt come mainly from Africa and China. I saw an article saying that in Africa its children mining these paid very little and mining them is bad for the environment. Chinese treatment of certain So when people are driving round in their electric vehicles feeling virtuous perhaps they might think about this.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Was always going to happen, so it's not a great shock

It will be low, whilst they ramp up the prices for owners of older vehicles even further

[Mala591]

I’m doing some research on British designed/manufactured/assembled electric cars but there seems to be very little choice. The Nissan Leaf, e-Mini (which might be moving to China), Jaguar, Landrover.

Is that it? Should the government not be ‘subsidising’ UK electric vehicle development and manufacture? Should we just sit back and let China supply most of our EV’s.

A fully robotic manufacturing process should help us compete but as ‘most’ British motorists don’t seem to give a damn where their cars are made, what’s the point in bothering?

[Bosscat]

Was always going to happen, so it's not a great shock

It will be low, whilst they ramp up the prices for owners of older vehicles even further

I see what you did there

Anyone who thought they wouldn't start charging VED for Leccy Cars lives in cloud cuckoo land.

[Bosscat]

The rare earth metals to make these 240 Volt batteries, Lithium, Cobalt come mainly from Africa and China. I saw an article saying that in Africa its children mining these paid very little and mining them is bad for the environment. Chinese treatment of certain So when people are driving round in their electric vehicles feeling virtuous perhaps they might think about this.

Haven't they been discussing Lithium Mining in Cornwall

https://cornishlithium.com/#:~:text=Cor ... 20Cornwall.

[Darthlaw]

Pre 2017 EV's will be £20 per year, anything registered after will be the rate which is currently £165 per year.

New EV's over £40k, registered after April 2025 (so thats most EV's) will also pay the 'Expensive Car Supplement' which is currently and additional £355 per year for the first 5 years.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Haven't they been discussing Lithium Mining in Cornwall

https://cornishlithium.com/#:~:text=Cor ... 20Cornwall.

Do they have enough local kids to send down the pits?

[Bosscat]

Do they have enough local kids to send down the pits?

[Stayingup]

Do they have enough local kids to send down the pits?

We have enough new entrants in the country to fill those positions.

Seriously mining these rare earth metals is dirty. Just as dirty is disposing of them. Estimated life time 5 years. I've been in consultation with an expert!!! This expert also told me that in the the EV manufcturers using 240v batteries would have to supply suitable jacks in the event of having to change a wheel.

[Stayingup]

I’m doing some research on British designed/manufactured/assembled electric cars but there seems to be very little choice. The Nissan Leaf, e-Mini (which might be moving to China), Jaguar, Landrover.

Is that it? Should the government not be ‘subsidising’ UK electric vehicle development and manufacture? Should we just sit back and let China supply most of our EV’s.

A fully robotic manufacturing process should help us compete but as ‘most’ British motorists don’t seem to give a damn where their cars are made, what’s the point in bothering?

Yes you have a good point. But subsisies from the government? We the consumer have been paying green energy subsidies for years now. But electricity is about 3 times the price of gas and has higher standing charges. The point being we, the consumer will bear the brunt of the costs whilst some cronies will make a lot of money.
What the hell has OFGEN been doing?

[aggi]

Pre 2017 EV's will be £20 per year, anything registered after will be the rate which is currently £165 per year.

New EV's over £40k, registered after April 2025 (so thats most EV's) will also pay the 'Expensive Car Supplement' which is currently and additional £355 per year for the first 5 years.

Probably about time. EVs are better than ICs but ultimately they are the same problem but just a little less polluting.

[chekhov]

Estimated life time 5 years.

Are you referring to the lifetime of the battery? If so you’re a little way out. My vehicle is nearly 8 years old and the battery is still over 90% of its original capacity. With modern battery management systems most will outlast the life of the vehicle (this is what I’ve read anyway).

[No Ney Never]

Road tax should be based on mileage. Mileage is recorded on each MOT.

A matrix of vehicle weight to determine amount of tax per mile x number of miles clocked in 12 months = VED payable.
i.e under 2 tonnes charged at 0.5p/mile, 2-4 tonnes 1p/mile, etc.

For a vehicle of under 2 tonnes that clocked 10,000 miles in 1year would sum as 0.5p x 10,000 = £50

Surely the more of the road you use, the more you pay is fair?

[dsr]

Road tax should be based on mileage. Mileage is recorded on each MOT.

A matrix of vehicle weight to determine amount of tax per mile x number of miles clocked in 12 months = VED payable.
i.e under 2 tonnes charged at 0.5p/mile, 2-4 tonnes 1p/mile, etc.

For a vehicle of under 2 tonnes that clocked 10,000 miles in 1year would sum as 0.5p x 10,000 = £50

Surely the more of the road you use, the more you pay is fair?

No MOTs in the first 3 years.

It doesn't apply to electric cars, of course, but with petrol/diesel vehicles the tax on the fuel you use fulfils the same purpose of increasing tax with increased mileage. Your way is more of a replacement of fuel duty rather than RFL on that basis.