More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[RingoMcCartney]

It's in the bit that says

That's the total votes, NOT the percentage. And you just couldn't bring yourself to put the percentage could you!

Why could that be!?

I think we know don't we Turtle err sorrry uphisownhole.

Because it would show that a bigger percentage voted to Leave than the percentage that voted to Remain.

And that clearly upsets you deeply and psychologically

[UpTheBeehole]

So you asked me where your grammatical errors were. I said there were none. You simply didn't understand English as well as struggling with maths. Now you're pointing out my , phone induced, spelling mistakes that have no effect on what should be your ability to understand what I'm saying! You're getting yourself into a right old Imploding Turtles Head type mess aren't you!

You keep telling yourself that I'm Imploding Turtle.

The truth is it's worse than that, there are multiple people who see through and challenge your bullsh*t and lies.

[RingoMcCartney]

You keep telling yourself that I'm Imploding Turtle.

The truth is it's worse than that, there are multiple people who see through and challenge your bullsh*t and lies.

All afternoon you had the chance to do it! Just one little percentage figure!

And you just couldn't!!

Times are grim in the Bunker!

[UpTheBeehole]

You wanted a figure, I gave you the figure.

[UpTheBeehole]

Over to you for the other figure.

[RingoMcCartney]

so you're fine with "politicians who have the ability to make decisions that affect me, my family, my town and country who stand for parties that I can never ever vote for" but you're against "politicians who have the ability to make decisions that affect me, my family, my town and country who stand for parties that I can never ever vote for".

can't argue with that.

Let me put it another way.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Its unique in that its main political parties are religious based I can never vote for. They have MPs in Westminster. They can have an effect on me.

There is nothing I can do about it. That's democracy.

Uk membership of EU allows foreign politicians and political parties who i can never vote for, to have an effect on me. There was nothing I could do about it. The referendum gave me the opportunity to stop it. I chose to vote to do just that. That's democracy.

[UpTheBeehole]

You can vote for the UK's representatives in the EU parliament however, which brings me round to the question you still haven't answered.

When did you last vote in a European election? If you didn't vote, why not?

[quoonbeatz]

Let me put it another way.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Its unique in that its main political parties are religious based I can never vote for. They have MPs in Westminster. They can have an effect on me.

There is nothing I can do about it. That's democracy.

Uk membership of EU allows foreign politicians and political parties who i can never vote for, to have an effect on me. There was nothing I could do about it. The referendum gave me the opportunity to stop it. I chose to vote to do just that. That's democracy.

its nothing to do with religion that you can't vote for them, its that they are northern irish parties - same reason you can't vote for SNP/Plaid Cymru MPs; they don't stand in burnley.

thanks for confirming that you are happy to accept that politicians who represent parties that you can't vote for can have an effect on you but you are not happy to accept that politicians who represent parties that you can't vote can have an effect on you.

[RingoMcCartney]

[quote="UpTheBeehole"][/quote]



Let it go.

Your refusal to just put a straight forward percentage figure up cos it highlighted how wrong your position was. A position that you're clearly emotionally wedded to, otherwise you'd have just done what most rational mature people would've done and posted it. And yet you're still desparately trying to cling on!

But trying to convince yourself, and others, that Burnley people who didn't even enter a polling booth, the day of the rreferendum, actually voted for Remain, really was jaw droppingly stupid.

You really are something of an intellectual pygmy!

[UpTheBeehole]

Your original example was of people sat around you at the Turf.

I've shown that statistically a minority of Burnley residents voted for Brexit, and bearing in mind a lot of Clarets travel from out of town to attend games, this would dilute your argument further.

The fact is, if you were to pipe up with your pro-Brexit views on the Turf, the statistics show that you would actually be in a minority, which is exactly the opposite to your belief of the situation.

It's funny how the stats are always against your opinion isn't it?

It's almost as though you're wrong all the time or something.

[RingoMcCartney]

its nothing to do with religion that you can't vote for them, its that they are northern irish parties - same reason you can't vote for SNP/Plaid Cymru MPs; they don't stand in burnley.

thanks for confirming that you are happy to accept that politicians who represent parties that you can't vote for can have an effect on you but you are not happy to accept that politicians who represent parties that you can't vote can have an effect on you.

Ok fair enough. Strictly speaking but let's not be naive. You know like I do. NI politics is dominated by religion. Stop being disingenuous.

You seem to be saying I'm being inconsistent. I'm not. Uk Democracy means there are parties I cannot vote for but can have an effect on me. There's nothing I can do about it. But that's democracy. And I accept it.

The referendum gave me the opportunity to stop foreign politicians and political parties having an effect on me. I took the opportunity to stop it. That's democracy. You should accept it.

My consistency is based on democracy and accepting the situations I can and cannot change, whether I like it or not.

You're position seems to be only accepting democracy when it gives you the results that you like.

[UpTheBeehole]

Who have you voted for in the European elections Ringo?

[UpTheBeehole]

Did you feel as though the 8 North West MEPs elected reflected your views and could represent you appropriately in the European parliament?

[UpTheBeehole]

How about 2009, did the 8 North West MEPs reflect your views then?

What about 2004, when there were 9 NW MEPs?

I'm guessing from your demographic (angry white brexit voter) that you are old enough to have voted in the 1999 European elections, where 10 (yes, ten!) MEPs were sent by the North West voters to the EU.

[quoonbeatz]

Ok fair enough. Strictly speaking but let's not be naive. You know like I do. NI politics is dominated by religion. Stop being disingenuous.

I'm not. we're talking UK politics here, not NI. the only reason you can't vote for them is that they only stand in NI.

You seem to be saying I'm being inconsistent. I'm not. Uk Democracy means there are parties I cannot vote for but can have an effect on me. There's nothing I can do about it. But that's democracy. And I accept it.

The referendum gave me the opportunity to stop foreign politicians and political parties having an effect on me. I took the opportunity to stop it. That's democracy. You should accept it.

i do accept it. just pointing out you're a massive hypocrite but that's nothing new

My consistency is based on democracy and accepting the situations I can and cannot change, whether I like it or not.

You're position seems to be only accepting democracy when it gives you the results that you like.

not my position at all. i always accept democracy. hence i accept referendum results, the results of general elections and the results of european elections - all of which i voted in.

thats democracy.

[RocketLawnChair]

Perhaps you two could exchange phone numbers and give us all a break !

[nil_desperandum]

Always amusing when some of the remain side assume the non voters want to remain.
.

I don't think that that assumption is being made. As a general rule, if you want change then you vote for it, so the argument is that all those who didn't vote either couldn't make up their mind, were apathetic, or were not allowed to vote for some reason, (and there were lot came into this category.)
This doesn't - of course - mean that they wanted to remain, but by the same token they weren't sufficiently persuaded by the leave argument. This is the basis on which people argue that only a minority voted leave.
This is the problem with a binary referendum where the winner takes all based on a simple majority. It creates arguments such as this.

[Paul Waine]

I don't think that that assumption is being made. As a general rule, if you want change then you vote for it, so the argument is that all those who didn't vote either couldn't make up their mind, were apathetic, or were not allowed to vote for some reason, (and there were lot came into this category.)
This doesn't - of course - mean that they wanted to remain, but by the same token they weren't sufficiently persuaded by the leave argument. This is the basis on which people argue that only a minority voted leave.
This is the problem with a binary referendum where the winner takes all based on a simple majority. It creates arguments such as this.

Hi nil_d, the argument you mention can only arise if someone wants to create a reason to object to the result of the referendum. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that. So far as I'm aware we don't have the same situation when we hold GEs, so why is it so hard to accept the legitimacy of the result in a binary referendum?

[nil_desperandum]

Hi nil_d, the argument you mention can only arise if someone wants to create a reason to object to the result of the referendum. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that. So far as I'm aware we don't have the same situation when we hold GEs, so why is it so hard to accept the legitimacy of the result in a binary referendum?

Hi Paul,
I didn't question the legitimacy of the result. I just made the point that non-voters shouldn't be branded as either remainers or leavers, (in response to another poster).

[Paul Waine]

Hi Paul,
I didn't question the legitimacy of the result. I just made the point that non-voters shouldn't be branded as either remainers or leavers, (in response to another poster).

OK. No probs. I agree that we can't say anything about the opinions of the people who didn't exercise their opportunity to vote - and can, therefore, only judge the result based on those that did vote. I've no problem with this - and wouldn't have a problem with it if the number of "leave" and "remain" votes were reversed.

[Damo]

or were not allowed to vote for some reason, (and there were lot came into this category.)

Who are the people who were not allowed to vote?
Genuine question

[Lancasterclaret]

Genuine answer

3 million European citizens that have been living here for years, sometimes decades.

[Paul Waine]

Who are the people who were not allowed to vote?
Genuine question

1) Persons under 18 years age;
2) Persons who hadn't registered to vote;
3) Non-UK citizens resident in the UK;
4) UK citizens who have chosen to live abroad;
5) Persons sentenced to more than 12 months in prison;
6) Persons who are on the electoral register in more than one constituency - they must opt for one or the other...

Am I missing any one?

[Paul Waine]

Genuine answer

3 million European citizens that have been living here for years, sometimes decades.

Don't these EU (non-UK) citizens have the opportunity to apply for UK citizenship - and if they did this don't they then qualify to vote?

What does EU law say about votes for EU citizens living in other EU states?

BTW, none of my EU citizen friends living/working in the UK felt that they should be allowed to vote in the UK referendum. Equally, most would have felt it strange if the UK expats living in their country could vote on their national issues.

[nil_desperandum]

Genuine answer

3 million European citizens that have been living here for years, sometimes decades.

Yes, but don't forget those from outside the EU as well, which includes, doctors, surgeons, nurses, care workers, and many other professional people.

[nil_desperandum]

Don't these EU (non-UK) citizens have the opportunity to apply for UK citizenship - and if they did this don't they then qualify to vote?

.

A citizens of the EU there was absolutely very little incentive for them to go through the laborious and expensive process of applying for British citizenship

[Paul Waine]

A citizens of the EU there was absolutely very little incentive for them to go through the laborious and expensive process of applying for British citizenship

I'm fine with whatever decision they wanted to make - but, if they needed to register as UK citizen to qualify to vote in a UK national election then I'm OK if they've chosen to commit to the UK and register, or chosen not to register and so not be eligible to vote. I don't think any of us have the right to complain about their decision - or the right to complain that they missed the opportunity to vote....

[RingoMcCartney]

i do accept it. just pointing out you're a massive hypocrite but that's nothing new

Just explain to me why you believe im being "a massive hypocrite".

My accepting that in a democracy, there are some things I can change and there are some things I can't. Shows an unusual form of twisted logic on your part, but that's nothing new either is it!

[aggi]

Oh fella, there's a bit of pedantry there! Nominate. Appointed. Ashton was not elected. Which ever way you describe it. No ballot paper with her name on it.

As for the UK. I'm a democract. If any of the various part of the union want to Leave I'd respect that decision. Thus far, none have.

As I've said lookimg down the tracks and the proposals for squeezing out certain parties, who are eurosceptic, financially should set the, democratic, alarm bells ringing for anybody. Regardless of which way you voted in the referendum.

Personally I'm of the view that there's a significant difference between appointed and nominated. I don't really see how you propose to vote for an EU commission (particularly given that they're meant to represent the EU, not the individual nations). Would you want a ballot paper with ~ 150 names on it (5 candidates for each position seems reasonable) on top of electing an EU parliament?

So far as I'm aware the main part of funding for the EU parties depends on how many seats you have. If a Eurosceptic party had the most seats (i.e. people voted for them) they'd have the most funding. I'm no expert though so I'd be interested in any links expanding on it.

[RingoMcCartney]

Personally I'm of the view that there's a significant difference between appointed and nominated. I don't really see how you propose to vote for an EU commission (particularly given that they're meant to represent the EU, not the individual nations). Would you want a ballot paper with ~ 150 names on it (5 candidates for each position seems reasonable) on top of electing an EU parliament?

So far as I'm aware the main part of funding for the EU parties depends on how many seats you have. If a Eurosceptic party had the most seats (i.e. people voted for them) they'd have the most funding. I'm no expert though so I'd be interested in any links expanding on it.

Answering the first part- no matter how the ballot paper was presented. As long as EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU not Britain. It runs contrary to what I see a democratic accountability. Back to Tony Benns 5 questions.


IN WHOSE INTERESTS DO YOU EXERCISE IT?

The EU, not Britain.


TO WHOM ARE YOU ACCOUNTABLE?

The EU not Britain.

2nd part. Your right about current funding. However proposals have been made to tax payer fund only parties that have pan European representation. And you have to assume that such parties, by their very nature, be broadly accepting of a pan European, supra national experiment that has enshrined at its heart, " ever closer union". Martin Shultz has made similar superstate noises recently.

Think about this chilling quote on a plaque on the entrance to the multi million pound EU visitors centre


"National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times… and of the steady march of humanity back to tragic disaster and barbarism… The only final remedy for this supreme and catastrophic evil of our time is a federal union of the peoples…’

Quoted in the European Parliament Visitor Centre. From: P. Kerr, ‘
Philip Kerr, was a British diplomat and arch-appeaser in the build up to the Second World War. Like modern Europhile zealots, he never dropped his doctrinaire outlook. Even on the eve of the Battle of Britain in 1940, he was urging Winston Churchill’s Government to reach a peace deal with Hitler’s regime.

[Damo]

Ah. I thought you meant people were actually stopped from voting. Didn't realise you meant people who were ineligible for perfectly good reasons

[RingoMcCartney]

Hi Paul,
I didn't question the legitimacy of the result. I just made the point that non-voters shouldn't be branded as either remainers or leavers, (in response to another poster).

Post 2447 I asked you this question

Let me make it as straight forward as possible. Given the way that Burnley voted. Would the majority of Burnleyites agree with my view or yours?

(You can leave the seating arrangements and the origins of the town's of people around you, and details of any conversations you may or may not have had, out of your answer)

Still choosing to swerve? And you've got previous on this. I've not forgotten. I once said that we pretty much agreed on an issue but rather than have to bring yourself to admit we did, you chose to focus on an innocent mistake and try and pretend I'd mis quoted you. Despite me correcting myself in several posts later

"No deal is better than a good deal" despite me repestedly posting what id really meant "no deal is better than a bad deal" on numerous occasions. Remember Nil_desparandum? I most certainly do!

Come on don't be shy for a second time! You can do it tiger!

[Sidney1st]

Ah. I thought you meant people were actually stopped from voting. Didn't realise you meant people who were ineligible for perfectly good reasons

Sounds boring when the proper reasons are listed, much more dramatic to say people were blocked/stopped from voting.

[nil_desperandum]

Ah. I thought you meant people were actually stopped from voting. Didn't realise you meant people who were ineligible for perfectly good reasons

How do you define "perfectly good reasons"?
If (e.g.) you came over here after World War 2, and worked in the NHS for 45 years before retirement, let's say - as a heart surgeon, you are surely as much entitled to your say as anyone else in this country? Anyone who found themselves in this position when Cameron announced the referendum, (along with details as to who could and couldn't participate), would not have had time to go through the due process of becoming a British citizen in time to vote, but in any case, why should they?
There contribution to our nation has been immense.

Remember also that ex-pats weren't allowed to vote. There is a stronger argument for excluding them, except they are possibly the ones with most to lose because potentially they could lose healthcare rights both at home and abroad. If we were to go for the "hard brexit" option then it would be interesting to see how the government would deal with that.

[Damo]

Sounds boring when the proper reasons are listed, much more dramatic to say people were blocked/stopped from voting.

I just got my wires crossed because I remember some of the excuses why people didn't vote at the time.
It was raining in London etc

[Sidney1st]

If someone has lived in this country for that long and NOT become a citizen then that's their own issue, no one else's.

Same with anyone who lives here for a decent amount of time and doesn't apply for dual citizenship etc.

Bloke I work with from Poland is now considering it because Brexit is going to happen.
He's been here 10yrs or so, married another Polish woman here and their child was born here, yet he'd never previously considered it...

[nil_desperandum]

Post 2447 I asked you this question

Let me make it as straight forward as possible. Given the way that Burnley voted. Would the majority of Burnleyites agree with my view or yours?

But that's nothing like the question you originally asked me!
In answer to this question however, I would guess that answer is that they wouldn't necessarily agree with either of us. The majority would most likely be more down the middle. (i.e they would be "soft leavers").
I am not however disputing the Burnley voting figures that suggest a significant leave majority in Burnley, and I don't think you'll find that I've done this on this thread. I just don't think that they are as fanatical as you. (Not that I am suggesting that your passion for Brexit is insincere).

[Damo]

How do you define "perfectly good reasons"?
If (e.g.) you came over here after World War 2, and worked in the NHS for 45 years before retirement, let's say - as a heart surgeon, you are surely as much entitled to your say as anyone else in this country? Anyone who found themselves in this position when Cameron announced the referendum, (along with details as to who could and couldn't participate), would not have had time to go through the due process of becoming a British citizen in time to vote, but in any case, why should they?
There contribution to our nation has been immense.

Remember also that ex-pats weren't allowed to vote. There is a stronger argument for excluding them, except they are possibly the ones with most to lose because potentially they could lose healthcare rights both at home and abroad. If we were to go for the "hard brexit" option then it would be interesting to see how the government would deal with that.

Being able to vote in the referendum shouldn't be a reason for people to decide they want to become a British citizen in my opinion.
People like the example you have given being denied citizenship is a totally different matter of course.
I think it was right to exclude ex-pats too

[evensteadiereddie]

P. KERR 29 March 1939,
" it now seems clear that Hitler is in effect a fanatical gangster who will stop at nothing to beat down all possibility of resistance anywhere to his will".
Kerr was quite correct in assessing that Hitler and his country's view that their perception of unjust persecution since WW1 would lead to the mass destruction of another global conflict and attempted, rightly , to avoid that. When it became apparent what Hitler was about to unleash, under the banner of "national sovereignty", he was as committed as anyone to the war effort and as US ambassador to his death, was instrumental in getting the Yanks on board.
Sounds like a bloke of wisdom and integrity to me.

[TractorFace]

DUyclReXcAE2UKf.jpg (91.17 KiB) Viewed 1420 times

[Paul Waine]

1) Persons under 18 years age;
2) Persons who hadn't registered to vote;
3) Non-UK citizens resident in the UK;
4) UK citizens who have chosen to live abroad;
5) Persons sentenced to more than 12 months in prison;
6) Persons who are on the electoral register in more than one constituency - they must opt for one or the other...

Am I missing any one?

Sorry, I got (4) wrong. If you are a UK citizen and choose to live abroad you can still register to vote in the UK for up to 15 years after you leave the UK - and, you don't need to live in another EU country to qualify:

British citizens living abroad
You can register as an overseas voter for up to 15 years after leaving the UK, as long as:
you’re a British citizen
you were registered to vote in the UK within the previous 15 years (or, in some cases, if you were too young to have registered when you left the UK)
Just register to vote in the normal way. You’ll need to renew your registration every year.

https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Paul Waine]

Remember also that ex-pats weren't allowed to vote. There is a stronger argument for excluding them, except they are possibly the ones with most to lose because potentially they could lose healthcare rights both at home and abroad. If we were to go for the "hard brexit" option then it would be interesting to see how the government would deal with that.

Hi nil_d, seems I was wrong to state that UK ex-pats weren't allowed to vote - see my correction above.

Re ex-pat health care - according to NHS Choices - UK citizens who aren't living in the UK do not qualify for NHS healthcare:

"If you are moving abroad on a permanent basis, you will no longer automatically be entitled to medical treatment under normal NHS rules. This is because the NHS is a residence-based healthcare system. You'll have to notify your GP so that you and your family can be removed from the NHS register."

And, EHIC may not cover health care in other EU countries: "Most people will no longer be entitled to use their UK-issued European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) to access healthcare in Europe, however there are a few exceptions."

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcare ... ction.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Greenmile]

Sorry, I got (4) wrong. If you are a UK citizen and choose to live abroad you can still register to vote in the UK for up to 15 years after you leave the UK - and, you don't need to live in another EU country to qualify:

British citizens living abroad
You can register as an overseas voter for up to 15 years after leaving the UK, as long as:
you’re a British citizen
you were registered to vote in the UK within the previous 15 years (or, in some cases, if you were too young to have registered when you left the UK)
Just register to vote in the normal way. You’ll need to renew your registration every year.

https://www.gov.uk/voting-when-abroad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Paul

I don’t think ex pats got a vote in the referendum, although they can vote in General Elections, as you’ve noted above.

Edit - looks like I’m wrong and only ex pats who had been out of the UK for more than 15 years couldn’t vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36370522" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martin_p]

Post 2447 I asked you this question

Let me make it as straight forward as possible. Given the way that Burnley voted. Would the majority of Burnleyites agree with my view or yours?

(You can leave the seating arrangements and the origins of the town's of people around you, and details of any conversations you may or may not have had, out of your answer)

The stats are clear, but don’t necessarily give you the answer you want. There was no clear majority for either leave or remain in Burnley amongst those eligible to vote. So assuming you are including those that didn’t vote in your definition of ‘Burnleyite’ then the answer is that it is impossible to tell!

[Sidney1st]

Hi Paul

I don’t think ex pats got a vote in the referendum, although they can vote in General Elections, as you’ve noted above.

Seeing as they've left the country I don't see why they get a vote in a GE.
Fully agree that they didn't get a vote in the referendum and as for the comment further up about their health care etc, they made their bed moving abroad, let them deal with it.

[Greenmile]

Seeing as they've left the country I don't see why they get a vote in a GE.
Fully agree that they didn't get a vote in the referendum and as for the comment further up about their health care etc, they made their bed moving abroad, let them deal with it.

Should they be allowed to vote in the country they’ve moved to, in your opinion (obviously this would mean giving non-UK citizens who’ve lived here for over 15 years the vote), or should they be disenfranchised entirely?

Your comment re health care seems awfully callous to me - they couldn’t be expected to foresee losing the rights they used to have (as EU citizens) when they moved.

[Sidney1st]

Should they be allowed to vote in the country they’ve moved to, in your opinion (obviously this would mean giving non-UK citizens who’ve lived here for over 15 years the vote), or should they be disenfranchised entirely?

Your comment re health care seems awfully callous to me - they couldn’t be expected to foresee losing the rights they used to have (as EU citizens) when they moved.

They should be allowed to vote if they obtain the required citizenship of said country of residence.
If you're going to move country and spend a decent number of years there, why wouldn't you make efforts to become a citizen and fully integrated with the country?

As for health care, they've made the move, I'm sure they examined all health care options prior to the move and ensured they get all that they need.

If they became a citizen of said country they'd be looked after wouldn't they in accordance with that countries health system?
Ah wait they want to move back to the UK for full time care when required.

[Damo]

Should they be allowed to vote in the country they’ve moved to, in your opinion (obviously this would mean giving non-UK citizens who’ve lived here for over 15 years the vote), or should they be disenfranchised entirely?

Your comment re health care seems awfully callous to me - they couldn’t be expected to foresee losing the rights they used to have (as EU citizens) when they moved.

Are you standing up for the rights of ex-pats in the name of democracy, or because they would of probably voted remain?

[Greenmile]

Are you standing up for the rights of ex-pats in the name of democracy, or because they would of probably voted remain?

I’ve no idea how they would have voted, and honestly have no hidden agenda here. I just think expats / immigrants should be allowed to vote in either the country where they claim citizenship, or where they live (but not both). I haven’t really thought about which one - it just seems instinctively unfair to me if they can’t vote in either.

I’ve never considered moving abroad, but I think I’d keep my British citizenship if I had to choose (not all countries allow dual citizenship as I understand it).

[Damo]

I’ve no idea how they would have voted, and honestly have no hidden agenda here. I just think expats / immigrants should be allowed to vote in either the country where they claim citizenship, or where they live (but not both). I haven’t really thought about which one - it just seems instinctively unfair to me if they can’t vote in either.

I’ve never considered moving abroad, but I think I’d keep my British citizenship if I had to choose (not all countries allow dual citizenship as I understand it).

I do agree with you mostly. I just think ex-pats would be mad to vote any other way than remain given what they have to lose because of Brexit. I can't think of one positive of an ex-pat voting leave