Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:22 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:1) I've read it

2) He's hardline ERG

No Deal is a bad thing for the UK. period. Very bad. Really, really, really bad.

Having it as an option we'll never do is completely pointless.

I know that, the EU knows that and the UK Government know that. Its pointless pretending its an option.

He's not ERG, he preferred EEA, he's resigning because of the backing an extension to article 50.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:25 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Why do you portray everyone as hardline ERG ? why don't you read his resignation letter before commenting.

Maybe because he stood for UKip before deciding to stand as a Tory. He's through and through "Bluekip".
it's bizarre anyway because he's resigned from the govt, but now says he's going to vote with the govt. for May's deal, so if it passes he will have got what he voted for and his resignation will be utterly ludicrous.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:29 pm

Its about time we stopped nicking the brightest and best from other countries and grew our own doctors and tech people etc. Why those other countries allow it I will never know.

Stop encouraging your kids to be bloody lawyers and do degrees in things that can be hobbies. Free tuition fees for the right subjects would be a start written off only if people stay here.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:29 pm

dsr wrote:I don't see the relevance of free movement. Trade deals are not normally connected with freedom of movement.

The absence of a trade deal with the UK does not stop Indian doctors from moving to the UK - there doesn't have to be a trade deal for the UK to offer bigger wages to skilled workers if we want to.

The point of a trade deal is that we will already trade with various countries under (presumably) WTO rules; the point of free trade is that it is mutually beneficial to both countries. It's not a matter of one country doing another a favour.

Not absolute freedom of movement but access to the labour market can form part of a trade deal (and often do). Recent example is the Canada/EU deal

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:52 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:You rather argue against your own point there.
As you correctly say the absence of a trade deal does NOT "stop Indian doctors moving to the UK" .
The point is that is that if we want a negotiated trade deal with India they want reciprocal free movement to be a part of the deal.

I don't see why. The EU doesn't hold that view, and they're the most enthusiastic free-movementers around. The recently signed deal with Japan has 18 paragraphs, and the only reference to free movement that I can find is the subsection of paragraph 8 "Temporary movement of company personnel". By concession, Japanese people moving to the EU on temporary work placements will be allowed to bring their spouses and children. That's a long. long way from free movement.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/ ... fm?id=1955" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:16 pm

Anyone resigning now about an extension to Article 50 is de facto in favour of the "No Deal" Andy.

Which makes him cahoots with the ERG.

He's resigned so he can vote against Mays deal when it comes up.

Which makes him cahoots with the ERG.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Anyone resigning now about an extension to Article 50 is de facto in favour of the "No Deal" Andy.

Which makes him cahoots with the ERG.

He's resigned so he can vote against Mays deal when it comes up.

Which makes him cahoots with the ERG.

he's said he's voting for the deal.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:49 pm

Bet he doesn't mate.

Why resign then?

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:55 pm

"I will vote for your withdrawal agreement when it returns to the house"

I thought you'd read it ?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:02 pm

Yup, and I don't believe him.

I mean, he's spouting UKIP and ERG ******** in that letter. Thats the sort of stuff the ERG come out with.

Is there any reason to believe him?

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:04 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yup, and I don't believe him.

Do you?

No reason not to, at least he has the balls to resign, unlike the remainers.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:08 pm

Why would they resign?

They wanted a vote, and because there are more of them than the ERG, they got one.

I know you don't like the way this is going, but stuff like that is basic.

All I know is this would have been sorted out some time ago if it wasn't for the ERG and their unrealistic demands.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:10 pm

AndyClaret wrote:No reason not to, at least he has the balls to resign, unlike the remainers.

Except he contradicts his own position. Why resign from May's government if he supports her deal??

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:11 pm

Thats the bit I don't get, which is why I don't believe him.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:11 pm

dsr wrote:I don't see why. The EU doesn't hold that view, and they're the most enthusiastic free-movementers around. The recently signed deal with Japan has 18 paragraphs, and the only reference to free movement that I can find is the subsection of paragraph 8 "Temporary movement of company personnel". By concession, Japanese people moving to the EU on temporary work placements will be allowed to bring their spouses and children. That's a long. long way from free movement.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/ ... fm?id=1955" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Difference is, the EU is a much bigger market, so more valuable to the Japanese (in this instance) than the UK would be - I'm sure this has been explained to you before. They are also much less desparate for a deal than we will be.

All this means that the Japanese (in this instance) are less able to obtain concessions (ie visas) in return for the trade deal.

It's really pretty simple - so simple in fact that I'm sure you know all this already.

Here's a link that took me 20 seconds to find

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... iUfsK.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:11 pm

Are you lot still at it haven’t you heard an Informed Referendum is on its way, so we will sort it out in the end not this useless excuse for a Government.

bfcmartin · Post by **bfcmartin** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:16 pm

Lancaster at least Andy showed you the evidence

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:18 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Maybe because he stood for UKip before deciding to stand as a Tory. He's through and through "Bluekip".
it's bizarre anyway because he's resigned from the govt, but now says he's going to vote with the govt. for May's deal, so if it passes he will have got what he voted for and his resignation will be utterly ludicrous.

It's called edging your bets, i actually agree with lancaster for a change there's no guarantee of him backing the deal despite saying he is & there is no guarantee of mays deal passing, won't do his reputation any harm if anything the exact opposite.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:20 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:It's called edging your bets, i actually agree with lancaster for a change there's no guarantee of him backing the deal despite saying he is & there is no guarantee of mays deal passing, won't do his reputation any harm if anything the exact opposite.

*hedging your bets

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:23 pm

Greenmile wrote:*hedging your bets

Does it matter? We aren't blessed with excellent speling & not reliant on spellcheckers, but true to form a drama will be created.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:25 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Does it matter? We aren't all blessed with excellent speling & not reliant on spellcheckers, but true to form a drama will be created.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yup, and I don't believe him.

I mean, he's spouting UKIP and ERG ******** in that letter. Thats the sort of stuff the ERG come out with.

Is there any reason to believe him?

You think that is UKIP. Blimey.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:43 pm

He stood for UKIP in 1999.

So yeah

EDIT - Obviously Farages UKIP*, not the EDL cheerleaders they are now

*they were bad enough like, but at least their racism wasn't as blatant

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:50 pm

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10939 ... t-betrayal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This will be just the beginning if brexit doesn't get delivered as the people voted.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:20 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10939 ... t-betrayal

This will be just the beginning if brexit doesn't get delivered as the people voted.

I wonder if it will be as powerful as this one

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/sta ... 0713074688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:21 pm

I'll say on here what I said on twitter

Middle aged fat blokes in yellow vests will be laughed at.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:30 pm

aggi wrote:I wonder if it will be as powerful as this one

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/sta ... 0713074688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This 1 will be coordinated & highly publicised, tice & farage organising it, not many politicians i can think of would walk from Sunderland to Westminster, i think nigel deserves credit for it if he walks it.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:51 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10939 ... t-betrayal

This will be just the beginning if brexit doesn't get delivered as the people voted.

'The Wetherspoons Putsch'

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:05 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10939 ... t-betrayal

This will be just the beginning if brexit doesn't get delivered as the people voted.

Will he carry on marching?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:22 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Does it matter? We aren't blessed with excellent speling & not reliant on spellcheckers, but true to form a drama will be created.

It really doesn't matter, no. I wasn't having a go and I'm sorry if it came across like that - I can understand how it might. No drama from me (today).

It's just one of those phrases that people often get wrong - Adam and Joe call them "eggcorns" - which I feel the need to correct. I think it's because I would prefer to be corrected in that situation, but that's just me probably.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:10 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:'The Wetherspoons Putsch'

I'm afraid that that comment will be wasted on many.
Anyway one thing for sure: May can't stave off "The Night of the Long Knives" for much longer in her party, but at present I'm not 100% sure which side will kill off which.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:33 pm

Chuka will kill the commy off. All hail usa and the jews.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:46 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:I'm afraid that that comment will be wasted on many.
Anyway one thing for sure: May can't stave off "The Night of the Long Knives" for much longer in her party, but at present I'm not 100% sure which side will kill off which.

Tad extreme! The conversatives are no where near Nazis, your post is incredibly disrespectful to Tory Jews.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:13 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Tad extreme! The conveatives are no where near Nazis, your post is incredibly disrespectful to Tory Jews.

My post has absolutely no relevance to Jews of any political persuasion, and I wasn't comparing Tories to Nazis either.
In case your grasp of 20th century history is weak, the "Night of the long knives" was when a faction on the right of German politics purged and killed off another faction.
It is analogous I think with what has seemed inevitable in the Tory Party not just since brexit, but for years, and it is what May has been desperately been trying to avoid.
(But apologies to anyone who found my post offensive).

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:19 pm

The term “night of the long knives” I have heard many times as a generic term to describe a time when there are a lot of sackings or forced resignations.
No Nazi connotations at all when I have heard the term.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:My post has absolutely no relevance to Jews of any political persuasion, and I wasn't comparing Tories to Nazis either.
In case your grasp of 20th century history is weak, the "Night of the long knives" was when a faction on the right of German politics purged and killed off another faction.
It is analogous I think with what has seemed inevitable in the Tory Party not just since brexit, but for years, and it is what May has been desperately been trying to avoid.
(But apologies to anyone who found my post offensive).

Maybe it’s more sensible to leave the nazis & any mainstream political party away from the comparisons unless unbeknown to anybody somebody is drafting up a final solution, it’s quite a sensitive subject for some people, btw apology accepted.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:40 pm

For balance, Lets use the Communist Purges of opponents in Catalonia in 1938 during the Spanish Civil War then.

Night of the Long Knives is perfectly fine though

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:41 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:Maybe it’s more sensible to leave the nazis & any mainstream political party away from the comparisons unless unbeknown to anybody somebody is drafting up a final solution, it’s quite a sensitive subject for some people, btw apology accepted.

Hi Jakub,
I think Tvc15 answered for me really, but just to be clear: I was using the term allegorically. The event had nothing to do with Jews, and had nothing to do with the "final solution", other than it was the violent "political" act that effectively consolidated Hitler's position and paved the way for the Enabling Act after Hindenburg's death.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:41 pm

We’re deflecting again I see.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:48 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Hi Jakub,
I think Tvc15 answered for me really, but just to be clear: I was using the term allegorically. The event had nothing to do with Jews, and had nothing to do with the "final solution", other than it was the violent "political" act that effectively consolidated Hitler's position and paved the way for the Enabling Act after Hindenburg's death.

Yes, you’ve explained it & I know all about it, that particular event was a prelude to seizing power & we all know what happened after that, it’s been a long day, night

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:50 pm

"Organisers say they aim to have a “core group of marchers” on each leg of the route. There is a £50 charge for those taking part."

That will be a nice 'work expenses' pot for Farage and the other LML ringleaders.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:55 pm

CombatClaret wrote:"Organisers say they aim to have a “core group of marchers” on each leg of the route. There is a £50 charge for those taking part."

It’s worth it for Nigel’s company, knowing him or should I say knowing of him, could be quite a pub crawl down to Westminster, I should imagine the £50 will go on Marshall’s & stewards, hi viz jackets ect.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:13 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:This 1 will be coordinated & highly publicised, tice & farage organising it, not many politicians i can think of would walk from Sunderland to Westminster, i think nigel deserves credit for it if he walks it.

I would happily bet that Farage won't walk all the way from Sunderland to Westminster.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:04 pm

Greenmile wrote:Difference is, the EU is a much bigger market, so more valuable to the Japanese (in this instance) than the UK would be - I'm sure this has been explained to you before. They are also much less desparate for a deal than we will be.

All this means that the Japanese (in this instance) are less able to obtain concessions (ie visas) in return for the trade deal.

It's really pretty simple - so simple in fact that I'm sure you know all this already.

Here's a link that took me 20 seconds to find

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... iUfsK.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your link doesn't back up nil-d's post at all. He (or she) said:

"which country (worth dealing with) is going to offer us a deal in which we expect free movement of skilled labour (who they have educated and trained) from there into the UK but refuses entry to others who are less skilled?"

but your link is hypothesising that the Indian deal will be based on easier access for professionals and students. Not for everyone.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:06 pm

More Brexit success that doesn't get media cover ??
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/0 ... lant-more/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cryssys · Post by **Cryssys** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:18 am

TVC15 wrote:The term “night of the long knives” I have heard many times as a generic term to describe a time when there are a lot of sackings or forced resignations.
No Nazi connotations at all when I have heard the term.

Reminded me of this:

In British politics, the "Night of the Long Knives" was a major Cabinet reshuffle that took place on 13 July 1962. Prime Minister Harold Macmillan dismissed seven members of his Cabinet, one-third of the total. The speed and scale of the reshuffle caused it to be associated by its critics with the 1934 Night of the Long Knives in Nazi Germany.

The reshuffle took place against a backdrop of declining Conservative popularity in Britain. Conservative candidates fared poorly in several by-elections, losing ground to Liberal candidates. Concerned that traditional Conservative voters were expressing their disapproval with the government's economic policies by switching to the Liberals, Harold Macmillan planned to replace his Chancellor of the Exchequer, Selwyn Lloyd, with Reginald Maudling...

Taken from Wikepedia

Nothing much changes.

jackmiggins · Post by **jackmiggins** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:20 am

This whole debacle has reached Pythonesque status. Views are being blurred by evermore emotional reasoning. It’s crystal clear that the option of leaving was never countenanced by the hierarchy & the last two years have been spent, drip by drip, reversing out of the briney, whilst ‘cunningly hoodwinking’ the populus.
I voted to leave & still would. I am more informed....more informed that the EU is even more of a bullying clique than I had imagined. Why we would want to spoon with characters that are simply psychotic is beyond belief. Their treatment of the Hellenes should have informed everyone of that fact. However, we’ll ignore the evidence that’s staring us in the face & remain. Remain in what though? How will our Euro brethren regard us when we rush back with our tails wagging?? I was never enamoured by Frankfurters at the best of times!
When you cut away all the twaddle, the EU is a ‘you scratch my back- I’ll scratch yours’ club. Step back though...there’s an awful lot of rather itchy bedfellows!!
Let’s lose our sovereignty, let’s panic about struggling to trade with.....how many states do we trade with?
Step back - think - can an inwardly looking group be so beneficial to all? I always thought that if someone makes a profit, someone makes a LOSS.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:12 am

dsr wrote:Your link doesn't back up nil-d's post at all. He (or she) said:

"which country (worth dealing with) is going to offer us a deal in which we expect free movement of skilled labour (who they have educated and trained) from there into the UK but refuses entry to others who are less skilled?"

but your link is hypothesising that the Indian deal will be based on easier access for professionals and students. Not for everyone.

I wasn’t trying to back up nil d’s post, but to refute yours.

You knew that, though, didn’t you?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:51 am

aggi wrote:I would happily bet that Farage won't walk all the way from Sunderland to Westminster.

I don't think he will walk every single step of way, we don't know what route he will be using yet, he's the only politician i can think of who is getting up off his backside & actually doing something, i understand nigels role will leading the march & also in a motivational sense as well, with the length of the journey & also meeting up in other towns via the journey, some sort of accommodation will also be required.

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:56 am

That’s very astute of you Jakub.