Jeremy Corbyn & the IRA

[Spiral]

False equivalence, NO.

Bullsh:t, yes.

Corbyn supported the IRA during the troubles, He did nothing to support any other side. His support was unequivocal. History will judge him by his own words and actions - he is also a self-professed "friend" of Hamas.

Diane Abbot admitted it. John McDonnell is on record also.

Corbyn just lied about it.

Wait, so it isn't a false equivalence to equate Corbyn's alleged support of the IRA's stated aim of a united Ireland while condemning violence carried out in its name with the UK govt's support of repressive regimes that propagate militant Islamism while condemning violence carried out in its name? Erm, well...cheers, I suppose. I wasn't really expecting you of all people to agree with me!

No. You're claiming that young people cannot be more susceptible to propaganda and ideology because Theresa May could sign a deal with the DUP? Therefore the youth were correct because they predicted an event that ... erm ... nobody predicted?

You're claiming Corbyn voters voted for Corbyn to prevent a Conservative-DUP coalition?

Please attempt to explain yourself here but don't expect a reply. Your logic is atrocious.

Nothing of the sort. And you might want to tone down your arrogance. Braggadocios pomposity looks a bit daft when you've totally misread the argument. I'm claiming that the post-election argument against the yoof's, shall we say, "indifference" towards Corbyn's historic links to the IRA is undermined by May jumping in bed with a party affiliated with paramilitary groups participant in the Troubles. I'm claiming hypocrisy, if I must spell it out for you.

[Rowls]

Please don't expect regular replies from me these days, I simply don't have the time.

Still stands. But let's have some fun whilst I'm still awake.

Wait, so it isn't a false equivalence to equate Corbyn's alleged support of the IRA's stated aim of a united Ireland

False equivalence, NO.
Bullsh:t, yes.
Corbyn supported the IRA during the troubles, He did nothing to support any other side. His support was unequivocal.

Try not to tire your little brain cells out on that.

The party next door has just kicked out so I'm off to bed now. Don't expect another reply.

Goodnight, God bless.

[Spiral]

Well for a start you've cut my quoted post in half and taken it out of context to the extent that you're almost making a strawman argument (quelle surprise), and in doing so you're insulting the intelligence of anyone reading this whom you'd hope to convince of your point of view, but I'm going to put that aside for a moment and ask why you are even arguing with me? You've said it isn't a false equivalence to equate (in the interest of brevity) IRA support with Wahhabi support? For clarity, are you in agreement with that or not? Is IRA support different from Wahhabi support?

I've said this before and I'll say it again, you can't patronise your way to a perceived 'win' on here. Grow up, man. Get your misplaced masculinity issues dealt with by a professional. Don't think people don't see your 'goodnight' routine as a pitiful AWOL-justifying preemptive cop-out for when your arguments are inevitably busted.

[IanMcL]

What a pointless continuation of this thread, when we have a PM currently running amok and unable to string two sentences together which make any sense and are disconnected from real life and real people.

She is the dangerous one.

[aggi]

Rowls, whilst you're here I'm still waiting for that evidence for your assertion that Corbyn opposed the Good Friday Agreement. Your last "evidence" related to a different agreement 15 years prior to the good Friday Agreement.You ignored the last two times I asked this which is a bit strange.

I didn't vote for Corbyn but I am a fan of facts so I would like to see where this assertion of yours came from. Or you can just acknowledge that you made it up, whichever is true.

[Lancasterclaret]

I wouldn't bother

Rowls (like the rest of them) is suffering from the realisation that their vision of the future of the UK got told to "do one" at the ballot box.

[HatfieldClaret]

I wouldn't bother

Rowls (like the rest of them) is suffering from the realisation that their vision of the future of the UK got told to "do one" at the ballot box.

Difference is Lancaster, as much as I was disappointed with the election result and as much as I loathe Corbyn et al for their treasonous revolutionary politics and support for a terrorist organisation that murdered men women and children in the UK, we have accepted the result of the election and are not keeping on whining about it. It happened. It's called democracy.

McDonnell and the unions didn't like the result, they did well but lost, so it'll be a summer of discontent with strikes in order to try and topple a recently democratically elected government. The threat of strike and the ballot box, reminds me of another slogan endorsed by the loony left.

So, what sport is on the telly today.

[Spijed]

so it'll be a summer of discontent with strikes in order to try and topple a recently democratically elected government.

Can you show me the result where we have a democratically elected government at the moment?

I'm struggling to find those said results.

I can certainly find a result that says the Conservatives DON'T have a majority but not one which says we have a democratically elected government.

[HatfieldClaret]

First past the post.

A democratically elected minority government.... ok ?

[JohnMcGreal]

Difference is Lancaster, as much as I was disappointed with the election result and as much as I loathe Corbyn et al for their treasonous revolutionary politics and support for a terrorist organisation that murdered men women and children in the UK, we have accepted the result of the election and are not keeping on whining about it.It happened. It's called democracy.

McDonnell and the unions didn't like the result, they did well but lost, so it'll be a summer of discontent with strikes in order to try and topple a recently democratically elected government. The threat of strike and the ballot box, reminds me of another slogan endorsed by the loony left.

So, what sport is on the telly today.

That's a fair bit of whining for someone who supposedly isn't whining about it.

[dermotdermot]

Corbyn remains a subversive. Merely mentioning '' requisitioning if necessary '' backs this up. A taste of things to come if, god help us, he was to be elected.

[Lancasterclaret]

Hatfield, you need to stop watching Fox News.

Your democratically elected govt is willing to jeopardise about the only thing all the main political parties used to agree on, namely peace in Northern Ireland for the sake of what, three months till the next election?

Enjoy it while it lasts, cos as long as the govt continue to be this incompetent, then the most left wing govt for decades is coming in and boy, the right wingers are really going to moan then*

* I don't support them in the slightest, but hey, the Conservative have done such a poor job and are happy to ignore everyone who isn't one then its time for some pretty major changes

[Damo]

IMG_20170617_090429.jpg (240.2 KiB) Viewed 4039 times

[HatfieldClaret]

"Enjoy it while it lasts,.... "

Not enjoying it at all at the moment. Is anyone.

What did I see on Fox news ? Is there anything incorrect about my post ?

I wasn't moaning about the election result, just moaning about Lancaster accusing all Conservatives of moaning about the result. No we're not, the result is what it is. No accusing Labour, Greens, Liberals of not knowing what they were voting for.

I think you may have a blurred view, not actually realising that most Tories are not a lot different from most other people from across the social spectrum. Quite normal people.....

[Lancasterclaret]

The vast majority are Hatfield, but some are quite happy to take risks with peoples safety for either ideological reasons (police numbers) or pure greed (that horrible tragedy at the Grenfell).

I don't want Corbyn running the country, but I've got to be honest, I want May and her brand of "ignoring conservatism" a lot less.

[Rick_Muller]

...not actually realising that most Tories are not a lot different from most other people from across the social spectrum. Quite normal people.....

I think you're right to an extent and I believe that the difference is Tories tend to be sympathetic whereas Labour voters can be more empathetic.

Here's a quote to support that:

To sum up the differences between the most commonly used meanings of these two terms: sympathy is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters, while empathy is putting yourself in the shoes of another.

So as a Tory you feel compassion for fellow man but you just don't know how it feels to be in hardship like someone with empathy. It is a fine line between the two, and I am not tarring all with the same brush, but this is what I believe to be one of the fundamental differences between the two sides.

I have garnered this opinion from many threads on here and what I experience in real life, stop and think about it for a minute.

Summing it up, Tories tend to be more selfish and Labour more selfless.

[pureclaret]

just a thought Tories tend to be more selfish with their money whilst Labour are more selfless with other peoples money.
So if that was to be a true statement which is the better party for the UK and is there a difference short term v long term ????

[ClaretRock]

[quote="AndrewJB"]My brother served in NI, but wholly endorsed Corbyn, as he saw the fact Corbyn is simply against violence. Dare I ask how you feel now the party you voted for is now in negotiation with a party backed by violent organisations in NI?

yes you can ask and I don't have a problem with loyalists as they are pro United Kingdom and the UDA, UDF go after IRA associates not bombing schools and police stations. I don't condone the violence they use and those still killing should be dealt with. Corbyn voters should have no problem with the coalition anyway as the DUP are only talking to leaders of the UDA to persuade them not to use violence and condemned the recent murder of a man carried out by people linked with the UDA.

[AndrewJB]

A few points to contest.



Many people got Corbyn to stand. Many are on record admitting they deeply regret the direction they sent the Labour Party. He was not expected to win. He was a 40-1 outsider when he secured his last-minute nomination to "widen the debate".

What "kind" is Mrs May? Was her manifesto designed to appeal only to vicar's daughters? Perhaps so? It was atrociously bad but the suggestion she does not care for society as a whole is stinking BS. She cares deeply about all social issues. As do well over 99% over our politicians of all persuasions.



More interestingly, this assumption presumes nobody did... *duh*



False equivalence, NO.

Bullsh:t, yes.

Corbyn supported the IRA during the troubles, He did nothing to support any other side. His support was unequivocal. History will judge him by his own words and actions - he is also a self-professed "friend" of Hamas.

Diane Abbot admitted it. John McDonnell is on record also.

Corbyn just lied about it.



No. You're claiming that young people cannot be more susceptible to propaganda and ideology because Theresa May could sign a deal with the DUP? Therefore the youth were correct because they predicted an event that ... erm ... nobody predicted?

You're claiming Corbyn voters voted for Corbyn to prevent a Conservative-DUP coalition?

Please attempt to explain yourself here but don't expect a reply. Your logic is atrocious.



This is plain bullsh:t. Margaret Thatcher was the head of a nation who Mandela saw after his release. The Conservative position was far more intelligent than yourself in the way it opposed apartheid. And far more effective.

If it were all down to leftist placards, Mandela would have rotted in a cell. It was carefully applied international pressure that secured his release. The reason Mandela is drawn to the Labour Party has nothing to do with them doing anything practical to secure his release and everything to do with the deceased man's far-Left, Marxist economic politics, as evidenced in dirt-poor current-day South Africa.

******

There you have it my politically inclined followers - answers to some of your questions. Some of your responses were better than others. Some were plain silly or stupendously ignorant.

Please don't expect regular replies from me these days, I simply don't have the time.

Lots of love

Rowls

PS: God Save the Queen and allez le Brexit!

There's nothing like revisionism. Corbyn supported peace in NI and spoke with Sinn Fein members, but this makes him an IRA supporter. The many people who demonstrated against apartheid in South Africa were wasting their time, because the Tory government were secretly against it anyway. The intellectual gymnastics invoked here are beyond belief. Nothing positive from Tory supporters, but lies and smears. It's no wonder they failed in the election.

What else to expect from a party that cuts police and emergency workers, leading to misery for many due to floods, fires, and terrororism?

[AndrewJB]

"Pro United Kingdom"? But anti those fellow citizens of ours that are gay, Catholic,
atheist, etc. It's alright for May to depend on extremists to govern the country, but bad for. Corbyn to have held peace talks with the other side of the same thirty years ago. Okay.

[evensteadiereddie]

Bit by bit, the Tory bullshit machine is falling apart. A few desperate people trying to justify May and Co's actions - or lack of - but I reckon they realise the game's up.
The Grenfell Tower tragedy goes far beyond the issue of contractors using inferior cladding to save £2 a square metre, it is about the political climate at all levels of bureaucracy assuming that it's perfectly acceptable, bearing in mind the block's likely inhabitants, to do so.

[hampsteadclaret]

errrr....5-0.

[dsr]

Can you show me the result where we have a democratically elected government at the moment?

I'm struggling to find those said results.

I can certainly find a result that says the Conservatives DON'T have a majority but not one which says we have a democratically elected government.

Are you saying that Britain is not and never has been a democracy? Or just that you don't accept this result is democratic wheras other results under the same system have been?

[AndrewJB]

Are you saying that Britain is not and never has been a democracy? Or just that you don't accept this result is democratic wheras other results under the same system have been?

Britain's democracy is imperfect when you can get a majority government out of a minority of the total votes.

[Lancasterclaret]

Do they have a majority for Brexit?

Having run an election on it, and losing 30 seats?

Or is democracy being tiresome again by not actually agreeing with you?

[dsr]

Britain's democracy is imperfect when you can get a majority government out of a minority of the total votes.

Just because a democracy is imperfect wouldn't mean it's not a democracy.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Do they have a majority for Brexit?

Having run an election on it, and losing 30 seats?

Or is democracy being tiresome again by not actually agreeing with you?

I don't think that they run an election on anything, and that was the problem.

Mrs May didn't vote for Brexit, but she has to try and move it on for the will of more than half of the population.

What is tiresome is that the recent election was won (in some folks eyes) by Corbyn.

[dsr]

Do they have a majority for Brexit?

Having run an election on it, and losing 30 seats?

Or is democracy being tiresome again by not actually agreeing with you?

There's an undoubted majority for Brexit, since 84% of the voters voted either Conservative or Labour.

[Lancasterclaret]

But not for a UKIP brexit, as what, 1% voted for them?

[dsr]

But not for a UKIP brexit, as what, 1% voted for them?

All three of Labour, Conservative, UKIP want the best possible deal. Ideally full access to the single market but also full access to other world markets, with full control of UK borders and all other EU rules being optional in the UK. They'd be fools not to want that. They'd also be fools to think it's possible we could get that. None of the parties are such big fools as that.

The basic difference is in what value the various parties would put on the access to the EU single market. We know to Labour that it'#s virtually priceless, that they'll pay any price, but also that we will gain control of our borders - we don't know how that will work out because so far as we know the EU won't allow both of those things to happen, but there you go. Conservatives and UKIP, as far as I remember, campaigned on similar platforms, that no deal is better than a bad deal.

Can you specify how the UKIP Brexit differed from the Conservative Brexit?

[Bin Ont Turf]

But not for a UKIP brexit, as what, 1% voted for them?

There's no such thing as UKIP Brexit. The EU referendum vote was a simple Yes or No.

UKIP are a spent party now that we've voted to leave.

It was a 'general' election, general being the operative word and not just Brexit.

[Lancasterclaret]

I would do, but no deal is better than a bad deal appears to have gone out of the window, as the reality of the situation has struck home with anyone who isn't a UKIP voter.

The election was fought by the Conservatives on their version of Brexit.

They got told that its not what the will of the people desired.

Whatever Brexit we get now will be different from the manifestos promises from Lab or Cons, simply because the UKIP vote has been proven to have gone.

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

his logic is that you must agree with every policy that they have.

I'd have pointed it out, but he'd have ignored it

BOT - Brexit is happening, but its what type that matters now. UKIP Brexit (which would have done the most damage) is off the table.

[dpinsussex]

What a pointless continuation of this thread, when we have a PM currently running amok and unable to string two sentences together which make any sense and are disconnected from real life and real people.

She is the dangerous one.

You might not like the result but thats democracy. Get on with it. One party won. The rest didn't
I didnt want brexit but have to deal with it.
Time to stop all thìs bickering and work together to make this country great. We as a country have elected an individual to steer us through unknown territory. It is time we ALL got behind her for the good of the country

[dsr]

I don't get the logic. So are you saying that (at the very least) the overwhelming majority of both Labour and Conservative voters want to leave the EU? If so, how have you drawn that conclusion?

No, what I'm saying is that in response to Lancaster's binary question "Do [the Tories] have a majority for Brexit?" the answer is clearly yes. There is no viable alternative view of the election result. Brexit is confirmed.

Incidentally, please ignore all Lancaster's attempts to speak for me. Arrogance is belief that you can speak for someone else; stupidity is the belief that you know what they are thinking. It's possible to do both at the same time.

[Lancasterclaret]

Brexit is confirmed.

is it?

It almost certainly was before the last election. Now?

You'd have to be someone who really, really, really has nothing else to hang on to after UKIP total annihilation to be as sure as you sound.

And in response to your previous post?

Ohhhh, get you!

[Damo]

No deal was never better than a bad deal. It was posturing by May to go into negotiations from the strongest standpoint. Labour's strategy of telling the EU they will accept whatever was given was frightening really

[Spiral]

No deal was never better than a bad deal. It was posturing by May to go into negotiations from the strongest standpoint. Labour's strategy of telling the EU they will accept whatever was given was frightening really

Yanis Varoufakis is considered one of the global authorities on game theory and even his expertise and application of game theory in attempts to salvage the Greek economy fell short against the negotiating power of the EU. You are, frankly, living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that May's 'no deal' rhetoric was a signal to the EU of our negotiating intent. It was merely a politically expedient rally-cry for idiots in this country. The EU would have undoubtedly watched that whole miserable episode play out in the way a Human might regretfully watch a dog hump a football before quickly deciding that enough is enough.

[Damo]

Yanis Varoufakis is considered one of the global authorities on game theory and even his expertise and application of game theory in attempts to salvage the Greek economy fell short against the negotiating power of the EU. You are, frankly, living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that May's 'no deal' rhetoric was a signal to the EU of our negotiating intent. It was merely a politically expedient rally-cry for idiots in this country. The EU would have undoubtedly watched that whole miserable episode play out in the way a Human might regretfully watch a dog hump a football before quickly deciding that enough is enough.

Your comparing our position to the one Greece held?

[Spiral]

No. (But kind of...)

Strictly speaking I was using game theory-authority Yanis Varoufakis' failed application of game theory regards negotiations with the EU to highlight that a nonsense slogan might not, contrary to popular belief, be quite the strategic weapon that some people with clear contempt for the electorate would have the population believe.

If I must dumb it down, the ELI5 version would be that the EU member states aren't mugs. May knows that but obviously put her money on the public not knowing that. It's insulting to listen to it, to be honest.

[Spijed]

Where does the student vote fall within the 84%?

It's clearly obvious that the vast majority of them voted Labour and the vast majority of students want to stay in the EU so quoting this figure of 84% is incorrect. The student vote will ALWAYS gravitate towards Labour regardless of their official policy on Brexit.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

[Damo]

No. (But kind of...)

Strictly speaking I was using game theory-authority Yanis Varoufakis' failed application of game theory regards negotiations with the EU to highlight that a nonsense slogan might not, contrary to popular belief, be quite the strategic weapon that some people with clear contempt for the electorate would have the population believe.

If I must dumb it down, the ELI5 version would be that the EU member states aren't mugs. May knows that but obviously put her money on the public not knowing that. It's insulting to listen to it, to be honest.

But still, Varoufakis did not really have a bargaining position. Greece's situation was much more precarious than the uk's in the event of an agreement not being reached. Therefore his threat was not very credible.
I don't doubt we will end up with a bad deal as such. I still think it will be better than any that the Labour party would of greatfully accepted

[Taffy on the wing]

Rowls is nothing more than a pompous ass! A living breathing cliche!
Who no doubt gets all his ideas and quotes from the times or some other putrid Murdoch publication.
i'll guess he's fairly well off....whether he's earned it or inherited it i don't know or care. But he's an i'm all right Jack and screw the rest of you ass.... ........Boris Johnson comes to mind.
Jeremy Corbin is alright! has been consistent in his political stances throughout his career....he's anti-war, for peace and for the less fortunate and no amount of your parroted right wing garbage will change that.

[claretandy]

Its just been confirmed by that arch brexiteer Phillip Hammond that we will leave the single market and the customs union, so much for back sliding.