Soft Brexit defeated

[nil_desperandum]

So lets say we decide to have an another vote, how could we convince the country to vote to stay in on worse terms. Honest question.

If the politicians told us the truth, we might be paying an extra £50 million a week which might equate to say £50 a month more tax for workers and £15 off everyones benefits to stay in.

But you don't know that it would be worse terms. It's just one opinion on one possible scenario, and a logical and obvious part of any negotiating process.
It's far more likely (IMO) that we will get the opportunity at some point in the future to remain in on slightly better terms. Despite what some politicians say, the EU don't really want us to leave, but they can't possibly let us have a preferential deal outside the EU.
It's quite possible, therefore, that as talks become increasingly complex and threaten to drag on for a decade, that a deal will be offered whereby we remain in the Single Market and the Customs union, but rules linking this with "Freedom of Movement" will be relaxed, along with other concessions (which I assume would be applied throughout the union). There are a number of EU countries who would like to see changes to this, [Free Movement] and within a few years, they may well be a consensus that countries are given greater control over this - though has has been pointed out on this thread, we already have more control over this than the tabloid press publicise,

[Lowbankclaret]

But you don't know that it would be worse terms. It's just one opinion on one possible scenario, and a logical and obvious part of any negotiating process.
It's far more likely (IMO) that we will get the opportunity at some point in the future to remain in on slightly better terms. Despite what some politicians say, the EU don't really want us to leave, but they can't possibly let us have a preferential deal outside the EU.
It's quite possible, therefore, that as talks become increasingly complex and threaten to drag on for a decade, that a deal will be offered whereby we remain in the Single Market and the Customs union, but rules linking this with "Freedom of Movement" will be relaxed, along with other concessions (which I assume would be applied throughout the union). There are a number of EU countries who would like to see changes to this, [Free Movement] and within a few years, they may well be a consensus that countries are given greater control over this - though has has been pointed out on this thread, we already have more control over this than the tabloid press publicise,

You ar e correct, I dont know and. was mearly speculating.

You are right as well, they might give us better terms, however I doubt it as that opens up the idea to other countries.

I believe they will play hard ball but perhaps a massive hole in there accounts might change things in 2020.

[Lancasterclaret]

You are right as well, they might give us better terms, however I doubt it as that opens up the idea to other countries

Why say "doubt it"?

There is zero chance of that.

[nil_desperandum]

You ar e correct, I dont know and. was mearly speculating.

You are right as well, they might give us better terms, however I doubt it as that opens up the idea to other countries.
.

I think you slightly misinterpret my point.
We can't have a better deal than the others, but I believe that there could be changes within the EU - possibly instigated by Macron - that would give the UK more of what it wants and benefit the rest of the EU as well.
Remaining part of a "partially reformed" EU that allows us to enjoy the benefits of the Single Market and Customs Union could definitely form the basis for a 2nd referendum in about 5 years time, (assuming we are still negotiating our way through a transitional period).

[Spijed]

It's all collapsing

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 20286.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[claretandy]

Verhofstadt has stated if we want to stay then the rebate goes and we have to join the Euro, no thanks.

[summitclaret]

He said it more or less straight after the election. This is typical of the EU. Absolute bullies. This is why we have to get out.

They are allowed to say and do whatever they want, which is why we had to start with a hard line in the discussions.

They are now planning a single tax regime as well as an EU army.

[If it be your will]

.

[dsr]

Any hope of a sensible, successful Brexit has long since evaporated. We invoked article 50 too soon at the behest of the clamouring hard-brexiteers then, bizarrely, had an election immediately afterwards.

Embarrassing though it is, it's time to call the whole thing off. Assuming we're allowed to of course - there seems to be differing accounts on this.

As far as I can tell, we can withdraw our resignation if and only if the other 27 unanimously agree that we can. Which of course will mean renegotiation so that all 27 others are happy. Which, practically, means no.

[RingoMcCartney]

He said it more or less straight after the election. This is typical of the EU. Absolute bullies. This is why we have to get out.

They are allowed to say and do whatever they want, which is why we had to start with a hard line in the discussions.

They are now planning a single tax regime as well as an EU army.

In the referendum leaders debate Nick Clegg said " the idea that there is going to be some sort of EU army, is a dangerous fantasy"

"A dangerous fantasy"

https://politicaladvertising.co.uk/2015 ... a-reality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's a lying treasonous rat.

Well done the People of Sheffield Hallam, for getting rid of this Anglophobic, 5th columnist, who's every waking political moment is spent working on behalf of the unaccountable, anti democratic dinosaur , that is the EU.

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

It does seem very weird that with all the money we are putting in that the EU wouldn't be very keen on us to stay.

But no, now we've left there is no turning back now snowflakes.

Surely though the undemocratic EU can just let us back in without worrying about the 27 nations in it?

Thats how it works yeah?

[HatfieldClaret]

Verhofstadt has stated if we want to stay then the rebate goes and we have to join the Euro, no thanks.

He obviously wants us to leave then.

Decision made.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah

COS THATS WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

[summitclaret]

I guess most people above the age of 35 have seen the excellent film The Firm, where the young bright graduate (Tom Cruise) is head hunted by a top legal firm. He soon finds out that the firm work for the Mafia and that no one ever leaves the Firm alive.

Remind you of anything?

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

Some on here believe its only our money propping them up.

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

It was a combination of events this time last year that resulted in the Brexit vote.

The same combination in a different slant would now result in us voting "remain".

Its basically an accident of history that the referendum happened when there was enough combinations of stuff that worries people for it to work, and the same could be said for the election last month.

May and Corybn are clearly Brexiteers, so this is brilliant for them. And like all Brexiteers, they will ignore everything that doesn't fit in with their vision of what the UK could be.

I do like to rant about this kind of thing, but the one thing we cannot and should not change is the referendum result, however batshit mental it looks to me.

People voted to leave, and democracy is on shaky enough ground already without ignoring that.

We've doen this to ourselves, and have no one to blame but ourselves, but because we voted for it, then we are going to have to deal with the consequences of it.

Sorry

[nil_desperandum]

Verhofstadt has stated if we want to stay then the rebate goes and we have to join the Euro, no thanks.

Verhofstadt is just as representative of the entire EU as is Nigel Farage, and if anyone in the EU listens to Farage's rhetoric and assumes that it represents the UK as a whole, the government or our negotiators, then they would be mistaken.
It's in the context of attempting to reconcile the opposing positions / [posturing] of Farage and Verhofstadt that Davis said that negotiations would be harder than landing on the moon, (or words to that effect)
It's all part of negotiating, and in most - but not all negotiations - a middle ground is found. If it isn't then usually the implications for both sides are pretty serious.

[dsr]

Its basically an accident of history that the referendum happened when there was enough combinations of stuff that worries people for it to work ...

Exactly. And in spite of the current obsession with the economy and immigration, it is partly because we were only given the choice by accident that some of us were so enthusiastic about taking the chance to get out. Politicians of all parties have been doing their damnedest not to let us have that choice, and by accident they gave us the choice - I'm sure a lot of people realised that we wouldn't get that choice again. Not if the politicians of that timne had their way.

[If it be your will]

.

[Lancasterclaret]

But it would have been decisively defeated under normal conditions.

But the world is not normal, and the reality is that people thought that the English channel can protect us from everything.

Manchester and London Bridge have blown that apart now and you can see the results in all the polls.

And that is before you go on about the economic stuff.

[aggi]

In the referendum leaders debate Nick Clegg said " the idea that there is going to be some sort of EU army, is a dangerous fantasy"

"A dangerous fantasy"

https://politicaladvertising.co.uk/2015 ... a-reality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's a lying treasonous rat.

Well done the People of Sheffield Hallam, for getting rid of this Anglophobic, 5th columnist, who's every waking political moment is spent working on behalf of the unaccountable, anti democratic dinosaur , that is the EU.

That is an area where we would have had an absolute veto. It wasn't possible to force through an EU army without the UK's agreement.

[Lowbankclaret]

I think you slightly misinterpret my point.
We can't have a better deal than the others, but I believe that there could be changes within the EU - possibly instigated by Macron - that would give the UK more of what it wants and benefit the rest of the EU as well.
Remaining part of a "partially reformed" EU that allows us to enjoy the benefits of the Single Market and Customs Union could definitely form the basis for a 2nd referendum in about 5 years time, (assuming we are still negotiating our way through a transitional period).

Apologies if I missunderstood.
I dont know the detail but I am sure we have a better deal now than some members as we have fought to have a veto and not agreed to the euro.

Yes I take your 2nd point as well, anything like that could happen in the future.

[nil_desperandum]

And now this:
Brexit: Vote Leave chief who created £350m NHS lie on bus admits leaving EU could be 'an error'
Dominic Cummings also described the referendum as a 'dumb idea' - shaping up to be a 'guaranteed debacle'

One of the masterminds behind the Brexit vote has performed an astonishing U-turn by admitting that leaving the EU may be “an error”.

Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign director, described the referendum as a “dumb idea” before other ideas had been tried to win back powers from Brussels.

He has also warned that Brexit is shaping up to be a “guaranteed debacle”, without big changes in Whitehall to deliver a successful negotiation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22386.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Paul Waine]

85,000 apply for 30 jobs in Italy’s central bank

From today's Times (pay wall, so no link).

"Permanent jobs are becoming a rarity in Italy’s sclerotic economy — so much so that the central bank has received nearly 85,000 applications for 30 clerical vacancies.

To whittle down the numbers, it is only considering applicants with degrees, immediately reducing the number of candidates to 8,000.

After a multiple-choice exam, 300 candidates will be invited for the final interview stage, giving them a one-in-ten chance of a job, a considerable improvement on the starting odds at the beginning of the process of about one in 2,830.

Successful candidates will be employed classifying and filing documents on an annual salary of €28,000.

It is humble work for a graduate but the jobs are secure and offer the possibility of climbing the internal promotion ladder; a welcome prospect given an announcement yesterday that youth unemployment in Italy increased to 37 per cent in May."

Rocco Martino, 30, one of the thousands excluded in the first round of the selection process, took the disappointment philosophically. “To tell the truth, it was worse losing the [Champions League] final against Real Madrid in Cardiff,” he told Il Messaggero. “I hope that both I and Juventus will have new opportunities.”

My comment: Some info on the employment situation in one of the other major European member states. Italy is a member of the Eurozone.

Also today: Pay row leaves Bank of England facing its first strike in 50 years

"Staff at the Bank of England have voted overwhelmingly in favour of industrial action in a ballot calling for higher pay.
It is the first time that the 323-year-old central bank has faced a staff strike in more than half a century.
Unite, the trade union, told the Bank that its members working in the security and maintenance departments, as well as the “parlours”, the offices used by Mark Carney, the governor, and his senior colleagues, will be taking four days of strike action from July 31 to August 3."