2.7 Million Brexiteers Have Changed to Remain

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Boycott on Brexit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32j9_018MNQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jakubclaret]

Boycott on Brexit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32j9_018MNQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top bloke.

[Damo]

Not sure remainers realise but there was only 2 choices when we went to the ballot box.
It doesn't matter why people wanted to leave

[biggles]

Pretty sure all remainers want to, you know, remain

yeah, and leavers want to, you know, leave

[Lancasterclaret]

But thats not the same for all of them is it?

I've got this awful feeling that even though this thread has people with different ideas of leaving on it, that you won't acknowledge that.

There are lots of ways to leave, but only one way to remain.

[mkmel]

Bet there are many times more leavers who now want to remain than remainers who now want to leave

[Jakubclaret]

[quote="mkmel"]Bet there are many times more leavers who now want to remain than remainers who now want to leave[/quote

What's the wager? How have you made this calculation?

[Lancasterclaret]

There is a lot more evidence in the polling for starters.

The problem you have is if it becomes more overwhelming than the actual referendum result.

As its based on the "will of the people", if that happens you have a pretty major problem

[CrosspoolClarets]

This would all have been avoided if the Remain supporters had accepted the need to give the voters a “real” Brexit (I.e. a free trade deal like Canada) which could have been locked in stone since Lancaster House in January 2017 when May proposed it.

The hardness or softness of this deal would then have been the focus of all our attention (in effect, the number of PLUS’s to be added to Canada, with David Davis saying he wanted Canada Plus Plus Plus). Things unrelated to the trade deal (e.g. medicines, security) could then have been bolted on during this period.

OK, I accept the EU have deliberately tried to delay and obfuscate, but if the UK had been solid from the start, we would have had loads of Plus’s added, other things too, and everyone would have been, if not happy, relieved. Lots of people, from all parties, and others like Gina Miller, have a lot to answer for.

[Jakubclaret]

There is a lot more evidence in the polling for starters.

The problem you have is if it becomes more overwhelming than the actual referendum result.

As its based on the "will of the people", if that happens you have a pretty major problem

The die has already been cast it's irreversible. No major problem at all far from it, but keep on trying I'm in the mood for entertainment.

[CrosspoolClarets]

As for the “one way to remain”, well, there is Remain with our veto, Remain without our veto, Remain in the Euro, Remain with our rebate, Remain without our rebate, Remain with our other opt outs.....etc etc.

Unrealistic to think the EU will let us back to how things were before.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'd love having a duel of words and wit with you Jakub, but sadly you are unarmed.

[Lancasterclaret]

Crosspool

That is entertaining but completely untrue, and you know it.

[Jakubclaret]

I'd love having a duel of words and wit with you Jakub, but sadly you are unarmed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results ... ndum,_2016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's a pretty blunt weapon. Night.

[Paul Waine]

There are lots of ways to leave,

Paul Simon wrote: "50 ways to leave....."

Great song. He performed it at Hyde Park this Summer.

[Jakubclaret]

Paul Simon wrote: "50 ways to leave....."

Great song. He performed it at Hyde Park this Summer.

https://youtu.be/ABXtWqmArUU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great track, let's have a video at least.

[Jakubclaret]

https://youtu.be/ABXtWqmArUU

Great track, let's have a video at least.

[Damo]

Is this remainers latest excuse for a 2nd vote? Leavers wanted to leave for many different reasons?
Talk about clutching at straws

[Damo]

Also of course some leave voters will have lost their bottle after 18 months of people telling us we are doomed.
This was something else that most people expected.


I'll wait for the the usual suspects to claim we thought it would be a seem less transition with absolutely no issues whatsoever

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

The remainers only really focus on the economy. But if we remain we will be morally bankrupt. Ever closer union will be an inevitability, our concerns will not be listened to seriously ever again. Those Brussels bureaucrats will say what you going to do? leave again? they will laugh at us.

While in the UK there will be anger from those disaffected and disillusioned with politics, many of whom voted for the first time in their lives voted because they were told their vote mattered and if we remain they will say 'told you so, no one listens to us'. A remain vote in any future referendum will disembowel UKIP, some may think this is a good thing, I think the opposite. There will be no use for them in British politics, in reality everyone knows there would be no hope of another referendum after a remain vote. People can call Nigel Farage all they like (I have never voted UKIP btw), but let me tell you this, if we vote to remain where will the disaffected turn to, they will turn to the far right. Those remainers that mention their Grandchildren need not worry about Nigel Farage any longer, you will have Tommy Robinson MP and the likes in Parliament. A remain vote will invite anger on to our streets and the real far right in to mainstream political discussions because they will gain popularity.

[nil_desperandum]

While in the UK there will be anger from those disaffected and disillusioned with politics, many of whom voted for the first time in their lives voted because they were told their vote mattered and if we remain they will say 'told you so, no one listens to us'. A remain vote in any future referendum will disembowel UKIP, some may think this is a good thing, I think the opposite. There will be no use for them in British politics, in reality everyone knows there would be no hope of another referendum after a remain vote. People can call Nigel Farage all they like (I have never voted UKIP btw), but let me tell you this, if we vote to remain where will the disaffected turn to, they will turn to the far right. Those remainers that mention their Grandchildren need not worry about Nigel Farage any longer, you will have Tommy Robinson MP and the likes in Parliament. A remain vote will invite anger on to our streets and the real far right in to mainstream political discussions because they will gain popularity.

And then Brexiteers grumble about "Project fear".

[biggles]

But thats not the same for all of them is it?

I've got this awful feeling that even though this thread has people with different ideas of leaving on it, that you won't acknowledge that.

There are lots of ways to leave, but only one way to remain.

i fully acknowledge that us leavers have many different reasons for wanting to leave and have different ideas as to an optimum outcome. but the bottom line is all leavers really just want to leave the EU. we probably won't have a say re what type of leave we will get and maybe that's not the main concern.

only one way to remain ? yeah, but remain in what? in a few years the EU will look completely different to how it looks today [and that's nothing to celebrate]. France and Germany will have total control over the UK. they will look to benefit themselves at our expense, as per.

as far as i am concerned i really don't care about the details; just as long as we are no longer controlled by and dictated to by the EU! end of! i'm convinced that, despite all the fictitious and continuous scare-mongering by some remainers the UK will be much better off in every aspect by leaving. i certainly do not wish to be forced to go along with the EU's expansionism and the Federalisation of the EU. Maybe you think that's a good idea, i don't.

[Rileybobs]

The remainers only really focus on the economy. But if we remain we will be morally bankrupt. Ever closer union will be an inevitability, our concerns will not be listened to seriously ever again. Those Brussels bureaucrats will say what you going to do? leave again? they will laugh at us.

While in the UK there will be anger from those disaffected and disillusioned with politics, many of whom voted for the first time in their lives voted because they were told their vote mattered and if we remain they will say 'told you so, no one listens to us'. A remain vote in any future referendum will disembowel UKIP, some may think this is a good thing, I think the opposite. There will be no use for them in British politics, in reality everyone knows there would be no hope of another referendum after a remain vote. People can call Nigel Farage all they like (I have never voted UKIP btw), but let me tell you this, if we vote to remain where will the disaffected turn to, they will turn to the far right. Those remainers that mention their Grandchildren need not worry about Nigel Farage any longer, you will have Tommy Robinson MP and the likes in Parliament. A remain vote will invite anger on to our streets and the real far right in to mainstream political discussions because they will gain popularity.

So, if there is another vote and the public vote to remain then the fascists will come out of the woodwork? So you’re suggesting that there is a significant number of fascists on the Leave side and if we upset them then they will essentially become more organised and grow in popularity? You’re not exactly painting a pretty picture of the brexiteers.

[Jakubclaret]

Agree it angers me to a certain degree that the power hungry rich people just want to take advantage of vulnerable eastern european cheap labour to the detriment of the domestic workforce & will resort to whatever measures to disillusion honest hardworking people, naive thinking any different money & greed as always been the motivator.

[nil_desperandum]

As for the “one way to remain”, well, there is Remain with our veto, Remain without our veto, Remain in the Euro, Remain with our rebate, Remain without our rebate, Remain with our other opt outs.....etc etc.

Unrealistic to think the EU will let us back to how things were before.

It's very much in their interests to do so, because the chances of us remaining otherwise are virtually nil.
Why would they push us into a No deal if they can reverse brexit? It makes no sense for them.
In any case, we won't have left if we remain.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

So, if there is another vote and the public vote to remain then the fascists will come out of the woodwork? So you’re suggesting that there is a significant number of fascists on the Leave side and if we upset them then they will essentially become more organised and grow in popularity? You’re not exactly painting a pretty picture of the brexiteers.

I think they are already out of the woodwork. Fascists dislike democracy, tell people to keep voting until they get the result they like, dislike the will of the people, always think they know better, act like elites..... doesn't sound like the brexit side to me.

But yes I do think those disaffected and disillusioned with politics will use a vehicle like a far right party to try and change things. Often they will not even agree with the politics of the far right, they just want to see change.

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

[Rileybobs]

I think they are already out of the woodwork. Fascists dislike democracy, tell people to keep voting until they get the result they like, dislike the will of the people, always think they know better, act like elites..... doesn't sound like the brexit side to me.

But yes I do think those disaffected and disillusioned with politics will use a vehicle like a far right party to try and change things. Often they will not even agree with the politics of the far right, they just want to see change.

Mmm. It’s just that you said that if we have another vote and end up remaining in the EU then a significant number of people will start following the likes of Tommy Robinson. I haven’t seen many remainers who have become so disaffected and disillusion that they have turned to extremism. So you must think there is a huge number of closet fascists on the leave side.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Mmm. It’s just that you said that if we have another vote and end up remaining in the EU then a significant number of people will start following the likes of Tommy Robinson. I haven’t seen many remainers who have become so disaffected and disillusion that they have turned to extremism. So you must think there is a huge number of closet fascists on the leave side.

closet fascists instead of those out in the open on the remain side?. Seriously why would remainers need to turn to extremism when they know they have the whole establishment on their side? get real.

The remain side only argument is the economy. Try telling that to people who feel like they have nothing that they are going to be worse off.

[Rileybobs]

closet fascists instead of those out in the open on the remain side?. Seriously why would remainers need to turn to extremism when they know they have the whole establishment on their side? get real.

The remain side only argument is the economy. Try telling that to people who feel like they have nothing that they are going to be worse off.

Yeah. Plenty of fascists on the remain side. Gotcha.

[Jakubclaret]

closet fascists instead of those out in the open on the remain side?. Seriously why would remainers need to turn to extremism when they know they have the whole establishment on their side? get real.

The remain side only argument is the economy. Try telling that to people who feel like they have nothing that they are going to be worse off.

They did in a sort of roundabout way & the 52% of mostly working class people who'd had their lifes fractured & torn apart by the EU throughout the years finally had their chance turned around & told the establishment shove it where the sun doesn't shine, god it felt good that day people were having party's & rejoicing on the streets, some stopped up all night until the results came in.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

A quick Google search of the word 'fascist'

"A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterised by authoritarian views and a strong central government."

Definitely sounds more of a remainer than a leaver to me!! Not one for respecting the will of the people those fascists.

[dsr]

It's very much in their interests to do so, because the chances of us remaining otherwise are virtually nil.
Why would they push us into a No deal if they can reverse brexit? It makes no sense for them.
In any case, we won't have left if we remain.

It depends what their ambitions are. The EU politicians do not consider the economy anything like as important as the Remainers on this board do. The EU politicians are willing to take a financial hit in furtherance of their aims. Their primary aim is the continuance of and progression of the political union, not the prosperity of their people.

So they might just decide that their best hope for continued progression of the union is to leave the UK out of it, with maximum possible economic chaos, to encourage other countries not to make the same breakaway. Whether it will work, I doubt. But that's the basis they have negotiated on so far - are we sure they will change round if we do? I'm certainly not.

And the other issue is the individual nations. It's not just a matter of getting the EU politicians to agree, it's a matter of the 27 nation members. The chances are we would need unanimous approval of the 27 to be allowed to withdraw our resignation. So Spain, for example, has the chance to say "do you want your Schengen opt-out, your Euro opt-out, your budget rebate, all back as they were before? OK, what's in it for us?" Do you think they wouldn't take that chance? Do you think Gibraltar might be mentioned?

Twenty-seven countries all have the chance to do a bit of horsetrading to let us back in on the same terms. Will all 27 "do the decent thing" and say come in, welcome home, you can have all your privileges back that we can't share? Maybe they will. But maybe they won't.

[Rileybobs]

They did in a sort of roundabout way & the 52% of mostly working class people who'd had their lifes fractured & torn apart by the EU throughout the years finally had their chance turned around & told the establishment shove it where the sun doesn't shine, god it felt good that day people were having party's & rejoicing on the streets, some stopped up all night until the results came in.

You think the majority of the 52% of people who voted to leave the EU were working class people whose lives had been fractured and torn apart by the EU? Have you got anything to back that up with?

[Rileybobs]

A quick Google search of the word 'fascist'

"A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterised by authoritarian views and a strong central government."

Definitely sounds more of a remainer than a leaver to me!! Not one for respecting the will of the people those fascists.

Will of the people give it a rest. Surely a second referendum would represent the will of the people?

[biggles]

Will of the people give it a rest. Surely a second referendum would represent the will of the people?

that's what the first referendum did - problem is remainers refuse to accept it; fascists !

[Rileybobs]

that's what the first referendum did - problem is remainers refuse to accept it; fascists !

So would a referendum 2 and a half years on not also seek to represent the will of the people. Afterall, I’m sure both sides would agree that an awful lot has come out of the wash in that time.

I doubt that the leave camp are really too bothered about the will of the people though. It’s just a catchy phrase.

[aggi]

I've checked into this, my information comes from a local newsletter pushed through my door that I read last night, so there is a chance that when they say that the council won't install CCTV because of the costs involved of compulsorily monitoring it, they actually mean monitoring the use of it, the requests, the storage, the paperwork - ensuring individuals identity is protected. Apologies for any ambiguity but I'm still not certain of the exact reasons.

Regardless, it is GDPR that has caused the council to raise the threshold for new CCTV installations, meaning our shops will continue to get robbed (but we are a small and insignificant suburb).

I suppose my point to nil_desp is still the same, that I am also judging Brexit on local issues such as this as well as issues that don't affect me as closely like the Irish border and our standing in the world. I feel the myriad of regulations on things diminish the quality of my life. It's a personal choice how we feel about these things, we should respect the things that each of us find important.

Cheers for the answer. That makes more sense (although less of a headline).

I'd agree that the costs are probably higher following GDPR, it's all pretty sensible stuff though. Justification for camera sites, encrypted video, responsible people viewing them, compliance with FOI requests (which already was the case before GDPR). I don't feel a great deal of sympathy if a slipshod proposal was turned down; videos should be encrypted, the proper records should be in place, identities should be protected. Which of those do you have an issue with?

[biggles]

So would a referendum 2 and a half years on not also seek to represent the will of the people. Afterall, I’m sure both sides would agree that an awful lot has come out of the wash in that time.

I doubt that the leave camp are really too bothered about the will of the people though. It’s just a catchy phrase.

oh, here we go, again. a remainer thinking they alone own the phrase 'the will of the people' . maybe be if remain won a 2nd referendum and then other things came to light eg Germany and France taking control of the EU we could have a 3rd referendum just in case the will of the people had changed again, with the wind. give in, you lost, we are leaving the monstrosity that the single market has transmuted into.

[biggles]

oh, here we go, again. a remainer thinking they alone own the phrase 'the will of the people' . maybe if remain won a 2nd referendum and then other things came to light eg Germany and France taking control of the EU we could have a 3rd referendum just in case the will of the people had changed again, with the wind. give in, you lost, we are leaving the monstrosity that the single market has transmuted into.

[Lancasterclaret]

We must implement the "Will of the People"* or there will be civil unrest?

I call Bullshit, there is no chance on this planet that you lot are going to leave the comfort of your homes when its raining to actually live in a cave in the Forest of Trawden to make sure you get your *insert reason for Brexit and what type of Brexit here*

If the "Will of the People* changes (which it is) because people are realising what actually leaving means, then its as democratic (if not more, because people can now be bothered to make themselves more informed) as the original vote was.

Not ideal of course, but nothing in this whole shitshow is ideal.

[Jakubclaret]

You think the majority of the 52% of people who voted to leave the EU were working class people whose lives had been fractured and torn apart by the EU? Have you got anything to back that up with?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/01/1 ... or-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

As an aside, I'd say that the chance of social unrest is a lot higher when the Brexit that was promised with all the benefits turns out not to be the case.

[JohnMcGreal]

I challenge any remainer to tell me, accurately, what the EU will look like in 5 years. It's a political behemoth and at this point, virtually unstoppable.

It's own defence forces. More power over countries who don't fall into line with their principles. More centralisation. Expansion. Even, and this is quite terrifying, the talk of Centralising Taxation, with the "harmonisation of European taxation".

As the EU grows, it will want/need more money and more power.

only one way to remain ? yeah, but remain in what? in a few years the EU will look completely different to how it looks today [and that's nothing to celebrate]. France and Germany will have total control over the UK. they will look to benefit themselves at our expense, as per.

i certainly do not wish to be forced to go along with the EU's expansionism and the Federalisation of the EU.

It's funny how before the vote, we were told by Leavers that the EU was a dying and failing political project that had no future. We were told that when we vote to leave, it will trigger a domino effect and it will all collapse. We need to get out of it before it implodes, they said.

Fast-forward a couple of years and the EU is an unstoppable global superpower that is taking over everything.

Just another example of how far the original conversation has shifted in the time since the vote.

[Lancasterclaret]

Schrodinger's EU

[Damo]

Well it looks like we have found Karl Junker's username

[Caballo]

Fast-forward a couple of years and the EU is an unstoppable global superpower that is taking over everything.

I'm calling you there John, utterly preposterous statement !!

[CrosspoolClarets]

Cheers for the answer. That makes more sense (although less of a headline).

I'd agree that the costs are probably higher following GDPR, it's all pretty sensible stuff though. Justification for camera sites, encrypted video, responsible people viewing them, compliance with FOI requests (which already was the case before GDPR). I don't feel a great deal of sympathy if a slipshod proposal was turned down; videos should be encrypted, the proper records should be in place, identities should be protected. Which of those do you have an issue with?

I don't have an issue with much of it, per se, in fact I don't have an issue with much of what the EU attempts to regulate, but I'll try to explain why it still bothers me.

The trouble is, usually it uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Their GDPR goes past sensible and becomes OTT (and thus expensive, which is now the case with CCTV regulation, which deters businesses and public bodies from using it). I speak as someone who still thinks that despite having my BA card details hacked from my recent trip to Athens (today's big story in the papers).

The same logic applies to many things.

I believe in fairly small government and devolved powers to be close to the citizen, that is opposite to the EU's direction of travel, and frankly, it isn't going to change. I also believe in liberalism but with a small tilt towards the authoritarian part of the spectrum - and thus believe that protecting people with CCTV is more important than worrying about the privacy of recording people using it (obviously there do need to be some controls, but not so many as GDPR). Again, my beliefs are different to the EU direction of travel (which may be influenced by the authoritarian history of some of the countries in it, who may be terrified of how things can be used by the state for dodgy purposes). We should have freedom to decide our own laws on things like these, reflecting our own culture, but I respect those who disagree.

[biggles]

We must implement the "Will of the People"* or there will be civil unrest?

I call Bullshit, there is no chance on this planet that you lot are going to leave the comfort of your homes when its raining to actually live in a cave in the Forest of Trawden to make sure you get your *insert reason for Brexit and what type of Brexit here*

If the "Will of the People* changes (which it is) because people are realising what actually leaving means, then its as democratic (if not more, because people can now be bothered to make themselves more informed) as the original vote was.

Not ideal of course, but nothing in this whole shitshow is ideal.

you talk of leavers changing their minds after becoming more informed etc. where's that info coming from, though? seems the vast majority of the media is unashamedly biased and pro-remain. maybe if more people actually looked into how the EU parliament functions then a lot more remainers might want to re-think their opinion! are you still going on about leavers giving many different reasons for wanting to exit the EU instead of just one big reason? i guess we give a lot of diffent reasons for wanting out simply because there are many, many reasons for wanting Brexit, any Brexit!

i like to think that us brexiteers have seen the light and, unlike remainers, we haven't been brainwashed by the EU bullshitting machinery. still, i can't change your mind about brexit and nor you mine so i guess all this debating is pretty pointless as far as changing opinions is concerned.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think you need to follow your own advice and look into the whole of the EU.

Your whole posts screams complete ignorance of the whole subject if we are being fair.

[RingoMcCartney]

I see Vince cable has announced he intends to stand down. He said he plans to do it "once brexit has been either resolved or STOPPED!"

I guess , as somebody who openly admits trying to "STOP" the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed. He's had to wrestle with his conscience while being the leader of a party that has the word DEMOCRAT in its name.

So fair play to him for doing the dignified thing and not leaving himself wide open to accusations of being a stinking hypocrit.