Flight tracking of our new striker not allowed anymore?

[Greenmile]

I'm interested (and dead against) in blatant discrimination btw, but this is something way out of my league

There are only so many things going on at the moment that you can give a s**t about is my pretty heartless but realistic view

I only got involved because I got name checked

That’s fair enough.

You might recall (it seems a long time again now) that this aspect of the conversation all started when Android was expressing his glee that journalists were being banned from Twitter, as they were getting a taste of their own medicine following the banning of various women (of whom he named...er...Graham Linehan) for stating “biological fact”. I’ve proved the science is not settled, so it’s not actually “biological fact”, and we all know the women he referred to were banned for harassment of trans people (and worse) which is why he refuses to name them.

Like you, I am dead against discrimination, transphobia, hate speech and lies, so I was unable to let this lie, but maybe now Android has made it quite clear to everyone what sort of person he is, the thread can get back on topic.

[android]

I don't know enough about it Greenmile

Honestly, I try to avoid this sort of thing like the plague because if I don't understand or am interested in something, I really struggle to get my head around it

And yet, you were happy to get involved and like the disgusting false labelling of me as an anti-trans bigot from a self-professed position of ignorance, and then had the audacity to tell me you are all about reality and truth!

Have business to attend to but I wonder if when I return, you will find the courage to say what I have said that is incorrect and / or hateful to anyone. I will not hold my breath.

I am ignoring the others who really are detached from reality. Maybe they hate women, or just hate lesbians perhaps? Maybe they do not think 2 year old boys should be allowed to play with dolls or wear dresses. There are a lot of really regressive attitudes taking hold.

[Lancasterclaret]

And yet, you were happy to get involved and like the disgusting false labelling of me as an anti-trans bigot from a self-professed position of ignorance, and then had the audacity to tell me you are all about reality and truth!

Have business to attend to but I wonder if when I return, you will find the courage to say what I have said that is incorrect and / or hateful to anyone. I will not hold my breath.

I am ignoring the others who really are detached from reality. Maybe they hate women, or just hate lesbians perhaps? Maybe they do not think 2 year old boys should be allowed to play with dolls or wear dresses. There are a lot of really regressive attitudes taking hold.

Courage?

I can read Android, and if you think what you have posted is perfectly normal, then you really do need to have a good, long, hard look at yourself

I don't want to fall out, but if you are going to go down that road, then I'm more than happy to tell you what it looks like you've posted, even from my completely uneducated (about this!) standpoint

[Greenmile]

That’s fair enough.

You might recall (it seems a long time again now) that this aspect of the conversation all started when Android was expressing his glee that journalists were being banned from Twitter, as they were getting a taste of their own medicine following the banning of various women (of whom he named...er...Graham Linehan) for stating “biological fact”. I’ve proved the science is not settled, so it’s not actually “biological fact”, and we all know the women he referred to were banned for harassment of trans people (and worse) which is why he refuses to name them.

Like you, I am dead against discrimination, transphobia, hate speech and lies, so I was unable to let this lie, but maybe now Android has made it quite clear to everyone what sort of person he is, the thread can get back on topic.

On which note, has anyone seen the Tesla share price recently? I’d imagine there’s a few major shareholders who aren’t too pleased with Musk right now.

[Lancasterclaret]

On which note, has anyone seen the Tesla share price recently? I’d imagine there’s a few major shareholders who aren’t too pleased with Musk right now.

Gone down again

It is quite impressive, with the drive for electric cars and his success with his brand as establishing it as the No 1 brand to own, that its tanking because (I assume) because the impression is that his purchase of twitter suggests he's not the s**t hot businessman everyone thought he was

[android]

Courage?

I can read Android, and if you think what you have posted is perfectly normal, then you really do need to have a good, long, hard look at yourself

I don't want to fall out, but if you are going to go down that road, then I'm more than happy to tell you what it looks like you've posted, even from my completely uneducated (about this!) standpoint

Please do tell me, that’s what I’m asking?

I don’t mean tell me “what it looks like” that’s easy and you will have the support of the pack. I’m talking about what I have actually said that is factually incorrect or hateful.

There is no need to fall out if you have a legitimate point, I will try to address it.

[Lancasterclaret]

Please do tell me, that’s what I’m asking?

I don’t mean tell me “what it looks like” that’s easy and you will have the support of the pack. I’m talking about what I have actually said that is factually incorrect or hateful.

There is no need to fall out if you have a legitimate point, I will try to address it.

I'm not sure I can!

I don't have the experience or the knowledge of this subject that you, GM, Dave and DA have basically

It looks wrong to me what you have posted, because it seems to imply discrimination against a type of people (which I've already told you are the victims/pawns of a very obvious culture war)

The tactics being used are the same used against other minorities through time I'm afraid

I can't put it any other way sadly, I just can't really elucidate myself better than that

It is perfectly possible that this is one of those subjects where my point of view and yours are incompatible, so we'd be unable to see each others view point

[Clovius Boofus]

The same slurs are used to shut women down. They are castigated as transphobes, far-right bigots and pawns being manipulated by those propagating a cultural war, for simply pointing out that women and girls should always feel safe when using single-sex spaces such as changing rooms, domestic violence refuge centres etc. Don't even get onto the trans sport debate, where biological men are demanding the right to compete in female sporting events.

[Lancasterclaret]

The same slurs are used to shut women down. They are castigated as transphobes, far-right bigots and pawns being manipulated by those propagating a cultural war, for simply pointing out that women and girls should always feel safe when using single-sex spaces such as changing rooms, domestic violence refuge centres etc. Don't even get onto the trans sport debate, where biological men are demanding the right to compete in female sporting events.

This bit I get

I understand this bit

But surely you see that this is demonising the trans community?

I mean, this is about the only thing I can easily understand about this whole debate

[Devils_Advocate]

It looks wrong to me what you have posted, because it seems to imply discrimination against a type of people (which I've already told you are the victims/pawns of a very obvious culture war)

The tactics being used are the same used against other minorities through time I'm afraid

Its 100% this and the misframing of things to simplify into attack lines right out of the right wing playbook along with the way he has dodged anything that anyone has posted that clearly highlights the flaws in what he has been arguing.

A good example is a great post Greenmile posted about how the science is unsettled and instead of addressing it he jumped on the fact Greenmile mentioned Climate change to divert and avoid even when the analogy Greenmile used it with was very appropriate and useful to demonstrate his point.

He did it with me when he avoided the factual stuff I highlighted around the Womens rights and LGB Alliance alliance with the far right and their willingness to work with racists, misogynists and homophobes jumping on sharing a YouTube video or that JKR was mentioned

An example of how he deliberately misframes stuff is like when talking about Mermaids he said " Should I assume that your silence means you were in favour of their appointment of the paedophile promoter as Trustee? " You'd think from this that Mermaids knowingly and happily appointed a paedophile when the reality was this person has shared a stage some years earlier with a group linked to paedophilia. The group were disgusting and by sharing the stage with them then so was the Mermaids trustee but it was only brought to light some years later by and investigative journalist (from the Times I think) who exposed him. The day the expose came out Mermaids suspended him and launched an immediate investigation and the trustee resigned straight away. So within the same day the issue was exposed he was gone.

Contrast that with how he has dealt on this thread with people he supports sharing a stage with far right groups and he has been completely dismissive and completely ignored the post when I showed that even someone from Get the L Out who I believe he is a big supporter of stated that there are ethical issues and a lack of accountability on the way the womens rights movement have embraced the far right.

I was going to spend some time highlighting all the stuff he has misrepresented and show how the way he frames stuff is right out of the right wing bigots playbook but he's showed over the last day or so he's unwilling to discuss things in a balanced way and that he is just interested in parroting culture war gotcha lines with a sprinkle of insincerity about how much he cares.

As you've shown on this thread LC you dont need to know the detail of the subject to see who are the people arguing in good faith with balanced backed up viewpoints and who the bigot is.

I think the good news is no matter how much he continues to protest and no matter what simplistic gotcha lines he throws in he's clearly shown himself up for the horrible person he is

[Clovius Boofus]

This bit I get

I understand this bit

But surely you see that this is demonising the trans community?

Well, I'm not doing demonising anyone. I'm also no transphobe. I'm defending hard won rights that serve my wife and daughter.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well, I'm not doing demonising anyone. I'm also no transphobe. I'm defending hard won rights that serve my wife and daughter.

Yes, I get that 100% (and back it 100%)

But surely you can see what is implied in your post?

[Swizzlestick]

Can’t really add anything to the excellent contributions from Greenmile, DA and LC re the offshoot discussion.

Re Twitter - it’s a total mess. He’s added a view total for tweets, for reasons utterly beyond me, that make the TL look a shitshow with sometimes multiple lines when you click through now. As mentioned above, the trending topics don’t work properly so incorrect or outdated tweets show up. I guess things like this happen when you sack half the workforce. The worry is, like a **** landlord, he’s just running the place into the ground.

It’s no wonder he’s desperately looking for an out now - he hasn’t got a clue (number of occasions where he’s asked anything other than softball questions re the changes at Twitter and he’s floundering) and the fact Tesla shares are dropping at a pretty astonishing rate - down over 20% this past week, almost 70% this past year.

[Clovius Boofus]

But surely you can see what is implied in your post?

Not at all, and I find your suggestion offensive.

I watched Ezra Furman on the last UK tour. Hardly something a transphobe would do, if that's what you are implying. To be honest, this is getting a bit 'thought crime'. Like I said in my previous post, women are being shut down all the time by such slurs and threats of violence. Take a look at what is currently happening to high profile women like JKR. It's disgusting that women in democracies, such as ours, are being silenced in this day and age.

[Greenmile]

Not at all, and I find your suggestion offensive.

I watched Ezra Furman on the last UK tour. Hardly something a transphobe would do, if that's what you are implying. To be honest, this is getting a bit 'thought crime'. Like I said in my previous post, women are being shut down all the time by such slurs and threats of violence. Take a look at what is currently happening to high profile women like JKR. It's disgusting that women in democracies, such as ours, are being silenced in this day and age.

I’ve asked you before, and I’ll ask you again, would you care to name any of these women who are being silenced?

[Clovius Boofus]

Tesla shares are dropping at a pretty astonishing rate - down over 20% this past week, almost 70% this past year.

The manbaby's fanboys aren't too happy. The 'wonder kid' glean is fading fast.

[Clovius Boofus]

I’ve asked you before, and I’ll ask you again, would you care to name any of these women who are being silenced?

You know damn well what's happening, therefore I don't respond to sea-lioning.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not at all, and I find your suggestion offensive.

I watched Ezra Furman on the last UK tour. Hardly something a transphobe would do, if that's what you are implying. To be honest, this is getting a bit 'thought crime'. Like I said in my previous post, women are being shut down all the time by such slurs and threats of violence. Take a look at what is currently happening to high profile women like JKR. It's disgusting that women in democracies, such as ours, are being silenced in this day and age.

Just replace trans people with black people and you can see it

I'm 100% sure that you don't mean it that way btw, but that doesn't change the fact that its there

[Greenmile]

You know damn well what's happening, therefore I don't respond to sea-lioning.

From Wikipedia...

“Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter...”

I’ve asked you twice (so not relentless), it’s not tangential and hasn’t been previously addressed, I’ve not been particularly civil, or sincere (I know you are unable to answer my question without giving me the name of someone who’s been “silenced” for much more than protecting women’s rights), and I’m not ignorant of the subject matter.

Apart from that, though, your point stands

[distortiondave]

I thought Sea-Lioning was when a bird tickles your balls with her nose.

[android]

I'm not sure I can!

As expected.

Let's not worry about how you would have reacted had I liked posts accusing you of bigotry with zero evidence to back it up.

I have an irrational soft spot for you Lancaster so I'm going to persevere. Someone mentioned sport and this is one of the area's where I have an interest (the others are too personal to discuss) so how about thinking about the problem and what the potential solutions might be? My daughter is a serious sportswoman. Her sport is considering introducing self id and therefore elimination of the female category. She knows it is wrong and unfair but she is keeping quiet. It's one thing for her dad to get abused as a bigot or a terf (sigh) on a message board but it is nothing compared to what she might suffer in real life and not something anyone would want to put their daughter through.

So what is the answer? The female category must be preserved. There are "scientists" who will convince gullible people that the male advantage can be eliminated by testosterone suppression and other bs. It is bs. Common sense tells most of us that is the case but the biologist I mentioned can provide evidence if required. There are also arguments that there are only a few trans women in sport so only a few females are affected. More bs. It might be the case numbers are small at present but the indirect consequences are enormous. You will never hear from the girl who had ambitions to be the best but gave up because she knew however good she got, a male could come along at any moment and take her title, or her place on the squad. You will not hear from the likes of my daughter who suck it up and quietly seethe.

Ok but what about a solution? The truth is there is no ideal solution. The least bad one I have seen is that the men's category becomes an "open" category. Trans people should be welcome to participate in sports according to their sex. For some (not all) this would be frustrating, as a trans woman would likely prefer to compete against women. Having an open category rather than a men's would help. Educating men to become MORE accepting of trans women would also help. It's not ideal but we have to be realistic that we are talking about a small number of people as opposed to 50% of the population. Maybe a better solution will come forward in time. If we are allowed to exercise some judgement (instead of the crazy black and white name calling) other practical solutions could be agreed on a local level. For example, it might be that the local badminton club (non-contact sport) agrees that 55 year old trans woman Emily with the dodgy knee should play in the ladies event and no-one gives a ****.

The only defence I can offer Greenmile, Dave, DA (God knows why I am defending them - Greenmile will probably be along in a minute to explain that I am only pretending to care about my daughter!) is that they have got very confused about sex versus "gender". Humans cannot actually change sex, that is just a fact, so in some circumstances the actual sex of a trans person matters. It does not mean that we cannot be kind and accommodating of how people choose to live or identify.

You will be pleased to know that I have pretty much had enough of this for a while. I suppose if there are further deranged insults I might be forced to respond but let's hope not.

[android]

I was going to spend some time highlighting all the stuff he has misrepresented...but

Least surprising news of the day

[Greenmile]

Least surprising news of the day

So your defence against a long and detailed (and accurate) post accusing you of being disingenuous and misrepresenting stuff is to quote a sentence fragment from it without any context? Great work, champ!

[Clovius Boofus]

No you don't you spanner!

No need to be insulting. We are all adults here, and surely we don't have to resort to this kind of behaviour. Mind you, this place is nothing to what women experience on a daily basis online when debating this subject. They have to put up with threats of rape and violence, along with other written forms of vile misogyny, which I won't repeat here.

[Devils_Advocate]

Least surprising news of the day

Yet no comments on the association between Bev Jackson and the Heritage Foundation or with Maya Forstater sharing a stage with the far right or Alison Bailey stating she is happy to work alongside racists and homophobes as long as the agree on sex based rights or Angela Wilds comments about how disgusted she is that influential parts of the womens right movement are teaming up with the racist, homophobic and misogynistic far right groups.

[Lancasterclaret]

As expected.

Let's not worry about how you would have reacted had I liked posts accusing you of bigotry with zero evidence to back it up.

I have an irrational soft spot for you Lancaster so I'm going to persevere. Someone mentioned sport and this is one of the area's where I have an interest (the others are too personal to discuss) so how about thinking about the problem and what the potential solutions might be? My daughter is a serious sportswoman. Her sport is considering introducing self id and therefore elimination of the female category. She knows it is wrong and unfair but she is keeping quiet. It's one thing for her dad to get abused as a bigot or a terf (sigh) on a message board but it is nothing compared to what she might suffer in real life and not something anyone would want to put their daughter through.

So what is the answer? The female category must be preserved. There are "scientists" who will convince gullible people that the male advantage can be eliminated by testosterone suppression and other bs. It is bs. Common sense tells most of us that is the case but the biologist I mentioned can provide evidence if required. There are also arguments that there are only a few trans women in sport so only a few females are affected. More bs. It might be the case numbers are small at present but the indirect consequences are enormous. You will never hear from the girl who had ambitions to be the best but gave up because she knew however good she got, a male could come along at any moment and take her title, or her place on the squad. You will not hear from the likes of my daughter who suck it up and quietly seethe.

Ok but what about a solution? The truth is there is no ideal solution. The least bad one I have seen is that the men's category becomes an "open" category. Trans people should be welcome to participate in sports according to their sex. For some (not all) this would be frustrating, as a trans woman would likely prefer to compete against women. Having an open category rather than a men's would help. Educating men to become MORE accepting of trans women would also help. It's not ideal but we have to be realistic that we are talking about a small number of people as opposed to 50% of the population. Maybe a better solution will come forward in time. If we are allowed to exercise some judgement (instead of the crazy black and white name calling) other practical solutions could be agreed on a local level. For example, it might be that the local badminton club (non-contact sport) agrees that 55 year old trans woman Emily with the dodgy knee should play in the ladies event and no-one gives a ****.

The only defence I can offer Greenmile, Dave, DA (God knows why I am defending them - Greenmile will probably be along in a minute to explain that I am only pretending to care about my daughter!) is that they have got very confused about sex versus "gender". Humans cannot actually change sex, that is just a fact, so in some circumstances the actual sex of a trans person matters. It does not mean that we cannot be kind and accommodating of how people choose to live or identify.

You will be pleased to know that I have pretty much had enough of this for a while. I suppose if there are further deranged insults I might be forced to respond but let's hope not.

Selective quoting?

I'm not arsed if you want to do that, but it does suggest (as you've been accused of) that you are exactly the bad faith actor that you claim not to be

[Lancasterclaret]

Arrrgh, bloody ran out of time for my edit

Right

Instinctively, my feeling is that someone changing sex to compete in a sport is wrong

But also, my feeling is that you can't accuse someone of changing sex just to compete in a sport either

It is bang out of order to assume that someone wants to change sex (which is something I can't imagine, but it must be a horrific struggle being in the wrong body and knowing it) just to be better at a sport (if that is not what you are implying then I apologise)

You see where the issue is there I think!

The reason you have an irrational liking for me is that I argue my points and have an unfortunate habit of being right!

In this case, I have absolutely no clue whether I'm right or not, but my sympathies will lie with someone who wants to change because its right for them

No one should be made to feel uncomfortable or discriminated against on that basis

[Lancasterclaret]

No need to be insulting. We are all adults here, and surely we don't have to resort to this kind of behaviour. Mind you, this place is nothing to what women experience on a daily basis online when debating this subject. They have to put up with threats of rape and violence, along with other written forms of vile misogyny, which I won't repeat here.

You are not offended at all by what I said, and I'm just highlighting how silly it is to pretend you are

As you say, we are all adults here!

[Lancasterclaret]

No need to be insulting. We are all adults here, and surely we don't have to resort to this kind of behaviour. Mind you, this place is nothing to what women experience on a daily basis online when debating this subject. They have to put up with threats of rape and violence, along with other written forms of vile misogyny, which I won't repeat here.

From trans people?

[dsr]

Arrrgh, bloody ran out of time for my edit

Right

Instinctively, my feeling is that someone changing sex to compete in a sport is wrong

But also, my feeling is that you can't accuse someone of changing sex just to compete in a sport either

It is bang out of order to assume that someone wants to change sex (which is something I can't imagine, but it must be a horrific struggle being in the wrong body and knowing it) just to be better at a sport (if that is not what you are implying then I apologise)

You see where the issue is there I think!

The reason you have an irrational liking for me is that I argue my points and have an unfortunate habit of being right!

In this case, I have absolutely no clue whether I'm right or not, but my sympathies will lie with someone who wants to change because its right for them

No one should be made to feel uncomfortable or discriminated against on that basis

Surely the point of segregation of women's sports is nothing to do with trans rights and and the social implications of being a woman. The reason there have always been sports exclusively for women is because (since time immemorial) they have known that if you have the identifiers that traditionally marked one out as being male - be it Y chromosomes, male genitalia, testosterone, whatever - possession of those markers mean that their owner had such an innate advantage in sports that people traditionally known as women couldn't compete.

So if we accept the ultimate position that what was traditionally thought of as a woman was wrong and always has been wrong, it makes no difference. Whichever way up we turn it, there is still (with extremely rare exceptions) two groups of people, one with testosterone, male genitalia, and Y chromosomes, and one without all those things. And we need a separate division of sport for the "withouts" because otherwise they can't compete fairly against the "withs".

[Duffer_]

I found Rosi Sexton's comments on trans participation in MMA particularly interesting and enlightening (link attached).

https://www.outsports.com/2021/6/16/225 ... fallon-fox

[Lancasterclaret]

Surely the point of segregation of women's sports is nothing to do with trans rights and and the social implications of being a woman. The reason there have always been sports exclusively for women is because (since time immemorial) they have known that if you have the identifiers that traditionally marked one out as being male - be it Y chromosomes, male genitalia, testosterone, whatever - possession of those markers mean that their owner had such an innate advantage in sports that people traditionally known as women couldn't compete.

So if we accept the ultimate position that what was traditionally thought of as a woman was wrong and always has been wrong, it makes no difference. Whichever way up we turn it, there is still (with extremely rare exceptions) two groups of people, one with testosterone, male genitalia, and Y chromosomes, and one without all those things. And we need a separate division of sport for the "withouts" because otherwise they can't compete fairly against the "withs".

This is not my field at all dsr, and I'm only really comfortable with saying what I said, and even then I'm not sure I'm right

[Clovius Boofus]

You are not offended at all by what I said

Not only do we have experts in 'thought crimes' on this thread, but we also have someone with mind-reading skills.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not only do we have experts in 'thought crimes' on this thread, but we also have someone with mind-reading skills.

I'm trying to imagine someone who posts that we are all adults getting offended by being called a spanner but to be honest, its actually impossible

How on earth have you managed to get offended by that?

[Greenmile]

I've been quite forthright on this thread, but I'm happy to admit that I'm not 100% confident in my position when it comes to trans people in sport.

Remember Caster Semenya? (incidentally, another potential argument against the "settled science" crowd). It never quite sat right with me when she was absolutely smashing every race, and I certainly wouldn't be comfortable watching her in a boxing match. I think she got banned from racing eventually.

On the other hand, I don't think it's fair to exclude any group of people from sport altogether.

It's a tricky situation which requires a bit of thought and grown up discussion, imo.

It's not a big enough problem to turn me into a raging transphobe, happy to support hate groups and the far right in a misguided attempt to fix it, though.

[android]

No need to be insulting. We are all adults here, and surely we don't have to resort to this kind of behaviour. Mind you, this place is nothing to what women experience on a daily basis online when debating this subject. They have to put up with threats of rape and violence, along with other written forms of vile misogyny, which I won't repeat here.

Sadly insults, slurs and smears is all they seem to have Clovius. That, and as you noticed, the weird dishonest mind reading games. I have been told numerous times on this thread that I mean the opposite of what I said. It's so childish.

DA ignores my questions and then whinges that I did not respond to him posting something about a woman on Twitter that I have never heard of and so it goes on. I doubt he ever did look at what the LGB Alliance actually stand for and which part of their right to same sex attraction he disagrees with. But he is happy to throw the mud and insults around.

The pack mentality is kind of interesting. Lancaster claims to be in the habit of being right and all about reality (lol), then claims to know nothing about the subject, then swings behind the bigot brigade. His latest response to me is gobbledygook that bears little relation to what I posted about sport and he somehow manages to lob in another false claim about accusations of cheating that I simply did not make.

Still nobody was able to point to any specific point I have raised about child safeguarding, women's rights, same-sex attraction rights or trans rights and say where they disagree. Not one example of where I have said anything hateful or bigoted. Says it all really and I really, really must move on to try find some more open minded people to discuss this with.

I just hope someone out there with basic comprehension skills has registered some of the issues and is willing to stand up for our females and children because they are in trouble if we do nothing.

[Stanbill05]

Well that was a depressing read. No-one is demonising trans people, they are the innocent party in all of this, but the reality is self ID in law will be exploited by none trans deviants at the expense of women. Some say that is too much of a risk and is asking too much, others believe innocent people shouldn't have their freedom curtailed due to potential crimes of others- there are already laws for that. Both true, and there is no easy answer, but the eagerness of the mob to attack valid concerns with slurs (usually via twitter) is depressing. Which is why most people keep quiet like I should have done..

Oh and sport is a none argument, regardless of the unsettled science.

[claretandy]

Sadly insults, slurs and smears is all they seem to have Clovius. That, and as you noticed, the weird dishonest mind reading games. I have been told numerous times on this thread that I mean the opposite of what I said. It's so childish.

DA ignores my questions and then whinges that I did not respond to him posting something about a woman on Twitter that I have never heard of and so it goes on. I doubt he ever did look at what the LGB Alliance actually stand for and which part of their right to same sex attraction he disagrees with. But he is happy to throw the mud and insults around.

The pack mentality is kind of interesting. Lancaster claims to be in the habit of being right and all about reality (lol), then claims to know nothing about the subject, then swings behind the bigot brigade. His latest response to me is gobbledygook that bears little relation to what I posted about sport and he somehow manages to lob in another false claim about accusations of cheating that I simply did not make.

Still nobody was able to point to any specific point I have raised about child safeguarding, women's rights, same-sex attraction rights or trans rights and say where they disagree. Not one example of where I have said anything hateful or bigoted. Says it all really and I really, really must move on to try find some more open minded people to discuss this with.

I just hope someone out there with basic comprehension skills has registered some of the issues and is willing to stand up for our females and children because they are in trouble if we do nothing.

They are exactly what they accuse you of ...

[Lancasterclaret]

They are exactly what they accuse you of ...

Tell me you've not actually read the whole thread without telling me you've not actually read the whole thread

[fatboy47]

The idea that any kind of elite athlete would switch genders simply to blag prizes is strictly the preserve of impressionable numpties.
Red tops and crappy click bait websites will trumpet any nasty misleading tripe they can grub up that smells of the above.
The world will go on...many will lick androids ar*se and call it chocolate, but most will recognise that kind of closet bigotry for what it is.

[Stanbill05]

The idea that any kind of elite athlete would switch genders simply to blag prizes is strictly the preserve of impressionable numpties.
Red tops and crappy click bait websites will trumpet any nasty misleading tripe they can grub up that smells of the above.
The world will go on...many will lick androids ar*se and call it chocolate, but most will recognise that kind of closet bigotry for what it is.

True, but that isn't the argument. Trans people have too much physical advantage in sport that in most cases is unfair and in some cases dangerous. If it's bigotry to point that out, so be it.

[fatboy47]

True, but that isn't the argument. Trans people have too much physical advantage in sport that in most cases is unfair and in some cases dangerous. If it's bigotry to point that out, so be it.

Fair enough.. I get what you say.
I guess I feel that ultimately the biggest noise around all this will be focused on creating outrage amongst the armchair community around imaginary unfairness though.

[claretandy]

Tell me you've not actually read the whole thread without telling me you've not actually read the whole thread

I've read enough to know that the usual suspects are ganging up and bullying one poster

[Spijed]

The idea that any kind of elite athlete would switch genders simply to blag prizes is strictly the preserve of impressionable numpties.
Red tops and crappy click bait websites will trumpet any nasty misleading tripe they can grub up that smells of the above.
The world will go on...many will lick androids ar*se and call it chocolate, but most will recognise that kind of closet bigotry for what it is.

Tbf, in the 70s and 80s there were a number of issues regarding East German athletics and some of the women competing at the time.

[Lancasterclaret]

I've read enough to know that the usual suspects are ganging up and bullying one poster

Classic

So you haven't actually read the thread

I'm shocked Andrew

Shocked I tell you

[Clovius Boofus]

Lancaster, you appear to know a lot about people, including what they have and have not read, and even the thoughts in their own heads. Others throw insults around like 'bigot', yet not one post has been deleted. Oh yes, there is intolerance on this thread, however it's not coming from those who are concerned about hard-won rights for women, from safe-spaces to sport.

[Bosscat]

I thought Sea-Lioning was when a bird tickles your balls with her nose.

Went to the Zoo to see lions and sea lions

[Lancasterclaret]

Lancaster, you appear to know a lot about people, including what they have and have not read, and even the thoughts in their own heads. Others throw insults around like 'bigot', yet not one post has been deleted. Oh yes, there is intolerance on this thread, however it's not coming from those who are concerned about hard-won rights for women, from safe-spaces to sport.

I actually think that everyone reached a tentative agreement on where everyone stands to be honest, and it was refreshing to hear people on both sides argue their points

But once culture war warriors get involved, then the debate crashes unfortunately

You know what my post implied, and it didn't imply that you were a bigot btw, it was just highlighting how the post can be misconstrued

[android]

Well that was a depressing read. No-one is demonising trans people, they are the innocent party in all of this, but the reality is self ID in law will be exploited by none trans deviants at the expense of women. Some say that is too much of a risk and is asking too much, others believe innocent people shouldn't have their freedom curtailed due to potential crimes of others- there are already laws for that. Both true, and there is no easy answer, but the eagerness of the mob to attack valid concerns with slurs (usually via twitter) is depressing. Which is why most people keep quiet like I should have done..

Oh and sport is a none argument, regardless of the unsettled science.

Thanks for speaking up and yes it is depressing. Your point about keeping quiet is felt by many. Even since your post I have been called a bigot again! Crazy. As untruthful as it, it is not pleasant to read, even on a message board from people who have no idea who I am. What I would say is that is much easier to discuss these issues in person and it needs to happen. The vast majority of people are reasonable and care about all people and can understand the issues.

I would never put her through it, but it would be a fascinating social experiment to put these seemingly hate fuelled grown men in a room with my young daughter so that they could spit "bigot" at her for wishing to preserve the safety and fairness of her sport. I wonder if they would even begin to see the misogyny. I doubt it actually.

Anyway, Happy Christmas everyone! Even the haters - life is too short.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its like you've not read a thing that anyone has posted, certainly on the last page

Its very disappointing but Merry Xmas anyway

And good luck to your daughter in achieving her dreams