Weghorst

[Cooclaret]

Why am I confused ?
I agree with your “opinion” on Weghorst that he is the best current striker at the club.

But that doesn’t mean it’s a fact

We’re getting somewhere, we agree on something.

He is factually the best striker at the club. What metrics would you use to disprove that?

I do hope we bring in better, and I hope Oberfemi or Foster go on to be more successful as that would mean potential success for BFC.

[Elizabeth]

Oh, I do hope we dispose of Weghorst soon and put this thread to bed

[taio]

We’re getting somewhere, we agree on something.

He is factually the best striker at the club. What metrics would you use to disprove that?

I do hope we bring in better, and I hope Oberfemi or Foster go on to be more successful as that would mean potential success for BFC.

Saying Weghorst is our best forward is an opinion. It's a reasonable opinion but it's not a fact.

[Cooclaret]

Saying Weghorst is our best forward is an opinion. It's a reasonable opinion but it's not a fact.

So how have you arrived at that opinion?

There are facts that have been detailed above in the thread. WW beats JR (only viable direct comparison) using almost all the metrics WE as fans have available. WW beats all the others too. They may have a greater potential overtime but currently WW is the best striker at the club.

[Rileybobs]

In the past I’ve been guilty of being drawn into exchanging insults with other posters until I realised it does no good nor does it help what is a good forum overall.

And yet you regularly appear on threads just to make cowardly snipes about my posts without responding directly to me. Hypokrites.

[Big Vinny K]

We’re getting somewhere, we agree on something.

He is factually the best striker at the club. What metrics would you use to disprove that?

I do hope we bring in better, and I hope Oberfemi or Foster go on to be more successful as that would mean potential success for BFC.

And this is why people call you out.
And yes it is embarrassing as you don’t strike me as someone who is stupid

[taio]

So how have you arrived at that opinion?

There are facts that have been detailed above in the thread. WW beats JR (only viable direct comparison) using almost all the metrics WE as fans have available. WW beats all the others too. They may have a greater potential overtime but currently WW is the best striker at the club.

By watching

[Rileybobs]

I do agree that it’s impossible to factually state that player x is better than player z. But obviously we can use evidence including statistics to inform that opinion, and there isn’t really any credible evidence which would support Rodriguez or Foster being better players than Weghorst.

I couldn’t factually claim that Messi is a better player than Gudmundsson but we all know that he is.

[Conroy92]

Weghorst probably is our best striker. I see little point denying that. His pedigree and performance at higher levels are way above the others. He may not be out best goal scorer though. And there hangs the conundrum, can you be a good striker and have a poor return. The answer is yes. It's not something we are used to at Burnley though, we have always relied on our strikers scoring, in the premier league last time the goals of Wood were relied upon heavily. Then came in Wout who operated much deeper, possibly due to the pace of the premier League. Looking back I'm not sure he would have ever fit in the Dyche system, we didn't control the ball enough in the centre of the field to enable him to stand in the area (somewhere he has pretty much scores all his goals over his career including international level) at United he has been used as the link man, in a similar way to how I think kompany would use him, to bring the wide forwards into play and in all honesty, he's done well and a better job than Ronaldo was doing. He's been judged, again unfairly, on his goals return. Wout could play the Barnes role from this season better than any of our current forwards and I'm not sure how people can disagree with that.

[Cooclaret]

I do agree that it’s impossible to factually state that player x is better than player z. But obviously we can use evidence including statistics to inform that opinion, and there isn’t really any credible evidence which would support Rodriguez or Foster being better players than Weghorst.

I couldn’t factually claim that Messi is a better player than Gudmundsson but we all know that he is.

There’s literally a list of data metrics and then psychological metrics that disprove that. Messi is a better player due to; a b c d E and so on…

[Cooclaret]

And this is why people call you out.
And yes it is embarrassing as you don’t strike me as someone who is stupid

I’m not calling you out, I’m genuinely interested to know which metrics you’ve used to form your opinion.

I’m just arguing that there are clear and consistent metrics that can be used to prove Player A is better than Player B.

The Ai scout is a perfect example of how are using metrics to sift players. The Australians and later other nations use physical and psychological sifts at certain ages to best utilise a skill set and promote success.

It’s where you then find a fit for those metrics that’s objective. WW was never going to be successful in Dyche’s Burnley, he might well be better suited to Kompany’s Burnley.

In a team set up to play fast fluid counter attack football, he’s ineffective as a striker as he lacks pace, but he is highly effective at supporting transition into attack. Solution, drop him deeper and play forwards and wide players with pace.

I think he would be effective against teams playing low block football, his movement and intelligence would be an assest Vs say Oberfemi/Foster who reley on pace and explosiveness.

This is where opinion comes into the game.

[Rileybobs]

There’s literally a list of data metrics and then psychological metrics that disprove that. Messi is a better player due to; a b c d E and so on…

Yes of course, I don’t disagree. But there are so many variables in football - such as position/role in a team and countless attributes that define the ability of a player. It’s less definitive than for example who is the best snooker player. See the tedious Ronaldo v Messi debate for example.

[Cooclaret]

Yes of course, I don’t disagree. But there are so many variables in football - such as position/role in a team and countless attributes that define the ability of a player. It’s less definitive than for example who is the best snooker player. See the tedious Ronaldo v Messi debate for example.

I agree that once you established your data, the application of that is a fraught and frayed process.

I like the snooker comparison.

The NFL and NBA are great examples of how data is used in professional sport.

[Elizabeth]

And yet you regularly appear on threads just to make cowardly snipes about my posts without responding directly to me. Hypokrites.

Riley , you are for sure one of the posters I’ve found disagreeable in the past for good reasons.

I decided not to directly confront you because it led to a game of table tennis between us and led nowhere.

I hoped it would diffuse things but obviously not

[Rileybobs]

I agree that once you established your data, the application of that is a fraught and frayed process.

I like the snooker comparison.

The NFL and NBA are great examples of how data is used in professional sport.

Yeah. Can’t say I’m an expert on either sport, although I’ve watched the Last Chance U series on Netflix which is a good insight. My understanding is that in basketball and American football the players have very defined roles in the team, and their effectiveness in said role can be measured by quite clear data such as number of blocks, number of rebounds etc.

It seems to me that a wider range of attributes are required to fill any such role in a football team - although certain attributes will be key for a player to flourish in a particular role such as completed progressive passes and ball retention etc. I could be wrong though, just my understanding.

[Big Vinny K]

I’m not calling you out, I’m genuinely interested to know which metrics you’ve used to form your opinion.

I’m just arguing that there are clear and consistent metrics that can be used to prove Player A is better than Player B.

The Ai scout is a perfect example of how are using metrics to sift players. The Australians and later other nations use physical and psychological sifts at certain ages to best utilise a skill set and promote success.

It’s where you then find a fit for those metrics that’s objective. WW was never going to be successful in Dyche’s Burnley, he might well be better suited to Kompany’s Burnley.

In a team set up to play fast fluid counter attack football, he’s ineffective as a striker as he lacks pace, but he is highly effective at supporting transition into attack. Solution, drop him deeper and play forwards and wide players with pace.

I think he would be effective against teams playing low block football, his movement and intelligence would be an assest Vs say Oberfemi/Foster who reley on pace and explosiveness.

This is where opinion comes into the game.

Sorry ? Did I not just say I agree with your opinion ? You responded to that post.
Surprisingly I do know how opinions are formed.

There’s more than a few people who agree with your opinion. But as can be seen not one person is saying it’s a fact.

[Rileybobs]

Riley , you are for sure one of the posters I’ve found disagreeable in the past for good reasons.

I decided not to directly confront you because it led to a game of table tennis between us and led nowhere.

I hoped it would diffuse things but obviously not

Well if you really wanted to diffuse things you wouldn’t make snidey remarks about my comments indirectly and indiscreetly. It’s a cowardly way to disagree with someone and it certainly doesn’t diffuse anything, not that I feel there’s anything to diffuse.

[Cooclaret]

Riley , you are for sure one of the posters I’ve found disagreeable in the past for good reasons.

I decided not to directly confront you because it led to a game of table tennis between us and led nowhere.

I hoped it would diffuse things but obviously not

Is there a pattern here?

[Elizabeth]

Is there a pattern here?

I don’t think Riley’s intervention helps you here

[Cooclaret]

I don’t think Riley’s intervention helps you here

Maybe it’s an encouragement to engage in the discussion and think about how we do that so we don’t appear snide or condescending.

Granted, we’re all liable to make a mistake or seven, but we should aspire to be kind. By all means disagree with the points being made, challenge them even, but don’t descend into pettiness or sweeping accusations.

It’s a message board we all value but in my opinion, it’s hanging on a precipice as to whether it’ll survive or become another Clarets Mad.

[Elizabeth]

Well if you really wanted to diffuse things you wouldn’t make snidey remarks about my comments indirectly and indiscreetly. It’s a cowardly way to disagree with someone and it certainly doesn’t diffuse anything, not that I feel there’s anything to diffuse.

If you really are sincere having made your point to me , I’m sure we can discuss things in future without your need to make uncalled for cutting remarks.

[Elizabeth]

Granted, we’re all liable to make a mistake or seven, but we should aspire to be kind.

I’m fine with that and if there have been misunderstandings let’s move forward

[bfcjg]

After 8 pages I think we could just sum him up as shite.

[Cooclaret]

If you really are sincere having made your point to me , I’m sure we can discuss things in future without your need to make uncalled for cutting remarks.

You still aren’t getting it. You’re blaming everyone else and not looking at yourself…

‘…your need…’

[Elizabeth]

You still aren’t getting it. You’re blaming everyone else and not looking at yourself…

‘…your need…’

One step forward , two steps back, eh?

I’ve just sent a conciliatory reply to you just before this comment

[Rileybobs]

If you really are sincere having made your point to me , I’m sure we can discuss things in future without your need to make uncalled for cutting remarks.

Oh dear. Who is making uncalled for cutting remarks? You had an opportunity to be sincere yourself but it appears that isn’t your intention. Oh well, there’s plenty of other posters on here to have discussions with.

[Cooclaret]

One step forward , two steps back, eh?

I’ve just sent a conciliatory reply to you just before this comment

See above. Conciliatory isn’t valid if you add a personal remark in it!

[Jakubclaret]

After 8 pages I think we could just sum him up as shite.

But the question is - is that an opinion or fact? I think it needs to be discussed whether he’s better than foster or jay it clearly hasn’t been covered in length yet.

[Elizabeth]

I’m fine with that and if there have been misunderstandings let’s move forward

That was my conciliatory message to you.

If Riley wants to disagree with me please let him without getting drawn in .
You are telling me you are not a bully and I’m telling you I’m happy to believe you.
We disagree on Weghorst , so what ?

[bobinho]

Anyway, it’s EASY to factually prove Messi is better than Gudmunsson.

Considerably harder to prove he’s better than Ronaldo.

I think conroy92 hits the nail cleanly on the head regarding Weghorst. I don’t know wether VK has a plan for him or not, but if he doesn’t have a plan for this individual, don’t be surprised to see a player of a similar ilk utilised. The days of “only the strikers go over the half way line” are thankfully dead and buried. Everyone in this team and this set up has a licence to get forward and have a crack, and that significantly reduces the requirement to rely on one player to hit 20+ goals. That player may only get 8 or so, but bringing others into the game is so important in our style that it doesn’t matter so much as others chip in regularly.

Anyway, if VK wants him, that’ll do me. If he gets rid, that’ll do me. Whatever happens, I’m not inclined to write him off because someone on here knows someone else who was at a bar b q once and he heard from the sister of the wife of the host that he’s a troublemaker with a bad attitude. At the moment, he’s a Burnley player, and he should be treated as such.

[clarets12]

Anyway, it’s EASY to factually prove Messi is better than Gudmunsson.

Considerably harder to prove he’s better than Ronaldo.

I think conroy92 hits the nail cleanly on the head regarding Weghorst. I don’t know wether VK has a plan for him or not, but if he doesn’t have a plan for this individual, don’t be surprised to see a player of a similar ilk utilised. The days of “only the strikers go over the half way line” are thankfully dead and buried. Everyone in this team and this set up has a licence to get forward and have a crack, and that significantly reduces the requirement to rely on one player to hit 20+ goals. That player may only get 8 or so, but bringing others into the game is so important in our style that it doesn’t matter so much as others chip in regularly.

Anyway, if VK wants him, that’ll do me. If he gets rid, that’ll do me. Whatever happens, I’m not inclined to write him off because someone on here knows someone else who was at a bar b q once and he heard from the sister of the wife of the host that he’s a troublemaker with a bad attitude. At the moment, he’s a Burnley player, and he should be treated as such.

Your first 2 sentences totally discount anything you said afterwards.

[Rileybobs]

Anyway, it’s EASY to factually prove Messi is better than Gudmunsson.

Considerably harder to prove he’s better than Ronaldo.

I think conroy92 hits the nail cleanly on the head regarding Weghorst. I don’t know wether VK has a plan for him or not, but if he doesn’t have a plan for this individual, don’t be surprised to see a player of a similar ilk utilised. The days of “only the strikers go over the half way line” are thankfully dead and buried. Everyone in this team and this set up has a licence to get forward and have a crack, and that significantly reduces the requirement to rely on one player to hit 20+ goals. That player may only get 8 or so, but bringing others into the game is so important in our style that it doesn’t matter so much as others chip in regularly.

Anyway, if VK wants him, that’ll do me. If he gets rid, that’ll do me. Whatever happens, I’m not inclined to write him off because someone on here knows someone else who was at a bar b q once and he heard from the sister of the wife of the host that he’s a troublemaker with a bad attitude. At the moment, he’s a Burnley player, and he should be treated as such.

He was bang out of order at that BBQ though. Nobody should mess with another man’s grill.

[alki claret]

Bobino and conroy92 posts are spot on a good time to bow out from this topic.

[bobinho]

Your first 2 sentences totally discount anything you said afterwards.

What I’ve particular enjoyed about our little interaction together here is the way you have used fact, logic, reason and evidence to build your counter argument.

I was just going to use “trophies won” such as the ballon d’or and the ECL to fortify my argument that Messi is better (fact), along with playing for the likes of Barcelona and PSG but I see now how pointless and unreliable that is as a measure of how good someone is at football.

[Elizabeth]

Oh dear. Who is making uncalled for cutting remarks? You had an opportunity to be sincere yourself but it appears that isn’t your intention. Oh well, there’s plenty of other posters on here to have discussions with.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I sincerely look forward to resuming discussions with you in the proper way it should be done

[Cooclaret]

That was my conciliatory message to you.

If Riley wants to disagree with me please let him without getting drawn in .
You are telling me you are not a bully and I’m telling you I’m happy to believe you.
We disagree on Weghorst , so what ?

I’m not a bully, it’s you that made that accusation, and you’ve failed to back it up with evidence. There’s a term for that in law.

[Elizabeth]

I’m not a bully, it’s you that made that accusation, and you’ve failed to back it up with evidence. There’s a term for that in law.

You are carrying this one on your own from now

[nil_desperandum]

After 8 pages I think we could just sum him up as shite.

I don't think we can, but we can, perhaps, maturely debate his current strengths and weaknesses, and express our own reasoned personal views on whether he might fit our framework and where he might end up, (should he leave us)
By no definition can a footballer who has played at the top level of European football and scored international goals be described as less than good.
Now, whether he is PL standard or one for us is an entirely different matter.

[Bullabill]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating .........

Well,well there is someone who gets it right! I wince every time I hear 'the proof is in the pudding'.

[clarets12]

I don't think we can, but we can, perhaps, maturely debate his current strengths and weaknesses, and express our own reasoned personal views on whether he might fit our framework and where he might end up, (should he leave us)
By no definition can a footballer who has played at the top level of European football and scored international goals be described as less than good.
Now, whether he is PL standard or one for us is an entirely different matter.

Can we have a go?

I think he's good enough to be part of our attacking 3. We need a striker, but we then have Benson - Weg - Zaroury

[4midable]

Anyway, it’s EASY to factually prove Messi is better than Gudmunsson.

Considerably harder to prove he’s better than Ronaldo.

I think conroy92 hits the nail cleanly on the head regarding Weghorst. I don’t know wether VK has a plan for him or not, but if he doesn’t have a plan for this individual, don’t be surprised to see a player of a similar ilk utilised. The days of “only the strikers go over the half way line” are thankfully dead and buried. Everyone in this team and this set up has a licence to get forward and have a crack, and that significantly reduces the requirement to rely on one player to hit 20+ goals. That player may only get 8 or so, but bringing others into the game is so important in our style that it doesn’t matter so much as others chip in regularly.

Anyway, if VK wants him, that’ll do me. If he gets rid, that’ll do me. Whatever happens, I’m not inclined to write him off because someone on here knows someone else who was at a bar b q once and he heard from the sister of the wife of the host that he’s a troublemaker with a bad attitude. At the moment, he’s a Burnley player, and he should be treated as such.

Switched off at EASY

[AlargeClaret]

This donkey surely wouldn’t show his face in Burnley again ?
Just sell the man and be damned

[daveisaclaret]

It is a bit troubling that he isn't being linked anywhere. It makes perfect sense to me if nobody wants him but I can't say it's very pleasing.

[equinox]

It is a bit troubling that he isn't being linked anywhere. It makes perfect sense to me if nobody wants him but I can't say it's very pleasing.

Troubling for who, you? Spoilt, spoilt spoilt rotten some of you lot.

I'm totally, intrigued, fascinated, excited at the prospect of what Vincent can do with this guy, but you're fncking 'troubled'?

[equinox]

Switched off at EASY

Quite a long post to he fair, you'd have struggled.

[Wokingclaret]

Troubling for who, you? Spoilt, spoilt spoilt rotten some of you lot.

I'm totally, intrigued, fascinated, excited at the prospect of what Vincent can do with this guy, but you're fncking 'troubled'?

Well you may well be disappointed, I'm sure Wout's agent will be trying very hard to find him a new club.

[4midable]

Quite a long post to he fair, you'd have struggled.

Be*

[bobinho]

be*, if you want to get it right….

[equinox]

Well you may well be disappointed, I'm sure Wout's agent will be trying very hard to find him a new club.

Another poster that is predicting other posters emotions on this subject 'disappointed'?

[equinox]

Be*

See you're picking stuff up all the time, Cutsy wouldn't have ever spotted that one.