Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[Lancasterclaret]

He looked like someone who believes so passionately in what he wants (ie a 2nd ref) that he's lost the ability to put that view across coherently and politely. As was the guy behind him (but for Brexit).

I turned off after that to be honest, I just don't see the point of that.

There is a mountain of evidence that can be used quietly and effectively to back your views, though I do take the depressing view that QT was quite happy to watch it kick off, and I doubt that anyone who is quiet and effective would get on.

As as aside, thought the EU lawyer was good, Cleverly struggled, Lewis was hopeless, the Scots lad wants independence more than he wants to stay in the EU and Hart-Brewer is a classic wealthy brexiteer with no idea about the realities of a "No Deal"

[nil_desperandum]

Did he not look like Rolf Harris?
I thought he did anyway. Didnt realise people would be so offended sorry

Don't think anyone was offended, but I just don't think it's a good idea to start bringing names like Harris or Saville into this debate tbh.

[aggi]

By the way, if anyone runs a business that trades with the EU then this is worth a look over, just in case. Various guidance from the ICAEW on what businesses need to consider in the event of Brexit. https://www.icaew.com/technical/economy ... -checklist" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It probably won't be immediately needed but you never know.

[Damo]

Don't think anyone was offended, but I just don't think it's a good idea to start bringing names like Harris or Saville into this debate tbh.

I only mentioned Rolf Harris because he looked like him.

IMG_20190315_112034.jpg (373.04 KiB) Viewed 2137 times

You see plenty of people compared to Hitler on here. There is a jokey reference by you towards claretandy in your old comments, so not sure why you have taken such umbrage about my silly comment

[Mala591]

I still have a nagging doubt of a feeling that a 'clean break' no deal Brexit - 6 to 12 months of confusion and chaos - will be better for the country than 5 more years of confusion, argument, frustration and anger (negotiating a trade deal).

Delaying the Brexit leave date until the end of June would give us another three months to 'mimimise the disruption' of leaving without a deal.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thing is, the confusion, argument, frustration and anger just starts without the security that the deal offers.

We can't avoid that bit whatever we do.

[Bordeauxclaret]

He does look like Rolf Harris to be fair.

[Lancasterclaret]

I have admit the more I look, the more I wonder if Rolf has escaped.

[Lord Beamish]

I wonder what the real Rolf Harris thinks about Brexit?

Also, if he doesn’t leave prison in a pine box, will the Home Office be seeking to repatriate him to Australia?

[Jakubclaret]

Don't think anyone was offended, but I just don't think it's a good idea to start bringing names like Harris or Saville into this debate tbh.

Or Nazi comparisons with warped analogies.

[nil_desperandum]

He does look like Rolf Harris to be fair.

Can't see it myself, but prepared to admit that I might be in the minority.

[AndyClaret]

I wonder what the real Rolf Harris thinks about Brexit?

Also, if he doesn’t leave prison in a pine box, will the Home Office be seeking to repatriate him to Australia?

Hasn't he already been released ?

[South West Claret.]

The odds say we're about 75% likely to leave

Not sure where you got those odds from but I was quoted 7/4 to remain which I thought was very poor if the “Little England’s” are to be believed.

[South West Claret.]

Aye, if you think we are not going to leave then stick money on it!

What at only 7/4 you are joking of course.

[summitclaret]

The good money would be on leaving via May's deal but never actually leaving for a decade.

[Lancasterclaret]

The last three days have made it pretty clear that if you want Brexit, then its Mays deal.

Which is fine, because you can then argue for your FTAs et al after the technology solution for the NI border is found.

[summitclaret]

The eu will never agree that the technology is ready and we will never be allowed to win any arbitration. We would probably lose the paper rock scissors to decide who chaired it.

The remainer HOC would try to prevent a canada plus free trade deal. The only chance is a brexiteer PM with Thatcher traits and ed ain't got one.

But I do agree that this **** deal needs to be taken.

[Lancasterclaret]

Again, you need to stop looking at this deal as a win for the EU.

Its an absolute gold mine for NI for starters. There isn't any interest in the EU forcing us to stay in this deal any longer then we have to.

There might be other solutions to the border as well as time goes on.

[dsr]

The last three days have made it pretty clear that if you want Brexit, then its Mays deal.

Which is fine, because you can then argue for your FTAs et al after the technology solution for the NI border is found.

If we leave on May's deal, the Remainers will be pleased because we still get to pay vast sums to the EU and still get to follow their rules, while technically not being a member. But they will be able to say "we aren't in the EU, you have got your way", and the subject will be closed for ever because they certainly aren't going to risk asking the public again.

If we don't leave at all, even the Remainers won't be able to condemn the Brexiters for carrying on the argument. If the House of Commons decides they would rather stay, they would have to at least have another referendum.

(If we have a free trade agreement, we don't need a technology solution for the Irish border.)

[Greenmile]

If we leave on May's deal, the Remainers will be pleased because we still get to pay vast sums to the EU and still get to follow their rules, while technically not being a member. But they will be able to say "we aren't in the EU, you have got your way", and the subject will be closed for ever because they certainly aren't going to risk asking the public again.

If we don't leave at all, even the Remainers won't be able to condemn the Brexiters for carrying on the argument. If the House of Commons decides they would rather stay, they would have to at least have another referendum.

(If we have a free trade agreement, we don't need a technology solution for the Irish border.)

This remainer wouldn’t condemn anyone for carrying on arguing for their beliefs (as long as they remain within the law). I certainly won’t be crowing “we won, you lost get over it”. But then I recognise that democracy doesn’t have an end point.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think everyone recognises that the Brexit debate will never be over.

[Spiral]

If we leave on May's deal, the Remainers will be pleased because we still get to pay vast sums to the EU and still get to follow their rules, while technically not being a member. But they will be able to say "we aren't in the EU, you have got your way", and the subject will be closed for ever because they certainly aren't going to risk asking the public again.

If we don't leave at all, even the Remainers won't be able to condemn the Brexiters for carrying on the argument. If the House of Commons decides they would rather stay, they would have to at least have another referendum.

(If we have a free trade agreement, we don't need a technology solution for the Irish border.)

Usually try to avoid bluntly insulting posters because it adds nothing to the debate, but I have to say that's some of the dumbest logic I've read on the whole matter. Either that or you're deliberately and grossly mischaracterising the remainer stance for reasons I'm genuinely struggling to work out. Do you sincerely believe remainers are enjoying this national self-sabotage?

[summitclaret]

Well we wouldn't be going back in to the euro, schengen and no rebate so this is it. I have always wanted to leave it better be worth giving up those and Labour's plan is certainly not.

[Jakubclaret]

I think everyone recognises that the Brexit debate will never be over.

Only because of the desire maybe compulsion is a better word to use, once we leave the debates will simmer down as questions would have already been answered, but what will ensue in the aftermath will be debates triggered by are we better off now than before & have things changed for the betterment & are the differences tangible & so on, which of course can & will only be determined accurately throughout the course of time & even then, opinions will vary on the individual circumstances.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is true, but just like now, the arguments will be it that it could be better back in.

[Jakubclaret]

This is true, but just like now, the arguments will be it that it could be better back in.

All hinges on what we end up with, & I concur with some posters that for the everyday person carrying out they normal daily activities won't really impact to any major detriment.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Usually try to avoid bluntly insulting posters because it adds nothing to the debate, but I have to say that's some of the dumbest logic I've read on the whole matter. Either that or you're deliberately and grossly mischaracterising the remainer stance for reasons I'm genuinely struggling to work out. Do you sincerely believe remainers are enjoying this national self-sabotage?

Yeah, there will almost certainly be some remainers enjoying this turmoil and they'll also be smug if Brexit doesn't work.
His logic isn't that dumb either, you're just refusing to accept that there are going to be remainers with the mindset he's mentioning.

Just like if there was a second referendum that went remainers why they'd want that decision to be the final one etc.

[summitclaret]

They are already calling it a final one as they think they would win it.

[CrosspoolClarets]

It’s becoming fairly obvious that the Maybot will go if her MV fails and the 3 month extension has to be a 12 month one.

Steve Barclay has implied he will resign next week if that is the case and there could be 6-12 others who would be happy with 3 months but not with 12. She couldn’t carry on after that with few Brexiteers left. She may be surviving like the Black Knight in Blackadder but even he has his limits.

A new leader and a GE would almost certainly then occur and given the Tory record for stitching up their members with a false choice, none of us know what to predict. The kind of exit we would then have would depend on the New PM vs Corbyn election.

So I would put it as 75% likely May’s deal passes, 15% likely Customs Union in the autumn and 10% likely a lighter version of May’s WA and then a FTA.

[Lancasterclaret]

They are calling it the final one because it will be the last one we will ever have.

[Lancasterclaret]

Black Knight in Blackadder

Think you mean Monty Python and the Holy Grail there

[claretspice]

Yeah, there will almost certainly be some remainers enjoying this turmoil and they'll also be smug if Brexit doesn't work.
His logic isn't that dumb either, you're just refusing to accept that there are going to be remainers with the mindset he's mentioning.

Just like if there was a second referendum that went remainers why they'd want that decision to be the final one etc.

One of the weirdest and most depressing aspects of this entire saga has been the insistence of people on both sides of the debate upon making it a fight between two "sides", and to project upon one side of the debate a certain pernicious set of values. Increasingly, though, it seems to me that that has manifested itself in the creation of a "remainer" bogeyman who is a part of the "establishment" and is scheming to "sabotage Brexit".

Firstly, the truth of it is that there's no such thing as a "remainer establishment". What there is are people who believe, generally for pragmatic reasons, that membership of the EU, or at least close links to the EU, are desirable for various reasons. Most of those reasons are economic, and based on an acknowledged consensus that there would be a significant short term shock upon a hard brexit, especially a no-deal. Others are to do with the benefits to social cohesion across Europe of close cooperation, cultural exchanges and the softening of national borders which have allowed disputed areas (like Northern Ireland) to become "shared". What virtually nobody supports (supported) remain for is because they want the UK to become subsumed into an anti-democratic European super-state. And even fewer of those in parliament who are arguing for a softer brexit are doing so for any such reason.

It's no more accurate a caricature than the idea that all of those who support Leave to do because they have some sort of early 20th century jingoistic view of Europe and the Europeans.

We need to get away from all of this. Parliament and parliamentarians are not covering themselves in glory at the minute, but the demonisation of people who are sincerely trying to do what they perceive to be in the best interests of the prosperity of the nation and its citizens is a terrible thing. The vast majority have no dog in the fight other than what they believe to be the national interest - and almost all recognise that the economics cannot unilaterally trump the referendum result.

We're talking about friends, neighbours and public servants at the end of the day.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The bogeymen have been created by both sides though.

The slavish EU servernts/remainers and the stupid moronic brexiteers who're determined to destroy the country

[claretspice]

Completely accept that. The tone of the debate across both sides has, from the outset, been abominable. But currently, there are an awful lot of politicians being barracked who have long since accepted that the referendum result needs to be honoured, but are just concerned to avoid it being effected in a disorderly way (which would be contrary to the clear message in the referendum). The distortion of what they are trying to achieve, and the attempts to demonise it - including on this thread - do no-one any credit.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

That's a fair summarisation.

[dsr]

Usually try to avoid bluntly insulting posters because it adds nothing to the debate, but I have to say that's some of the dumbest logic I've read on the whole matter. Either that or you're deliberately and grossly mischaracterising the remainer stance for reasons I'm genuinely struggling to work out. Do you sincerely believe remainers are enjoying this national self-sabotage?

Obviusly the logic was a step to dumb for you to follow. The point is, if May's deal gets through that will be an end of the argument because it will be possible to claim that the referendum result has been enacted, even though the UK hasn't become independent of the EU. If we stay in as full members, that will not be an end of it because there will be no remotely reasonable way to claim that the referendum has been enacted.

[summitclaret]

It won't be at an end until we get an acceptable trade deal with the EU. That will not be easy as the EU clearly want us as close as possible partly as they are scared of our enterprise. The ridiculous WA gives them the upper hand yet again. Bet they won't even discuss the alternative arrangements for the border until we agree being tied into a CU.

[Cryssys]

One of the weirdest and most depressing aspects of this entire saga has been the insistence of people on both sides of the debate upon making it a fight between two "sides", and to project upon one side of the debate a certain pernicious set of values. .

That's the trouble with the binary system, you have to chose one over the other. Brexiter or Remainer, Labour or Conservative? You choose a side, lines are drawn, names get called and views become entrenched. We have degenerated into two tribes.

We need to change our mindset and move away from adversarial politics, focus on what we agree on and find a consensus.

[Spiral]

Obviusly the logic was a step to dumb for you to follow. The point is, if May's deal gets through that will be an end of the argument because it will be possible to claim that the referendum result has been enacted, even though the UK hasn't become independent of the EU. If we stay in as full members, that will not be an end of it because there will be no remotely reasonable way to claim that the referendum has been enacted.

Okay. You've done nothing to convince me otherwise that your mind's conception of 'a remainer' is so warped as to make your views on brexit irredeemably disconnected from reality. Simple question: ignore the remainer trolls on the internet for a moment, do you sincerely believe that remain voters/2nd ref advocates are actually happy at paying money to be a rule-taker under May's deal? It doesn't follow that people advocating a 2nd ref would somehow also take pleasure in ending the debate with a deal (May's) they oppose so much they believe it should be taken to the people. If they wanted May's deal to pass to end the debate, they wouldn't be advocating a 2nd ref.

[Foulthrow]

Ok. Here goes. I referred to Diane Abbott like I did for two reasons.
1. She’s mince. There’s no point trying to dress this up any other way. She is thicker than a dockers butty, and NO political party who employs her could be taken seriously, she is to labour what BoJo is to the tories, and
2. Saying it like I did (one word, when it was actually two) was a nod to her legendary numeracy skills.

Whoosh is the sound something makes when it goes over ones head.

OMG!!! You have inadvertently “whooshed” me! Touché sir.

Ah. Ok then

[Jakubclaret]

Whatever the final deal & I suspect won’t be favourable, certain people from the outset wanted a hard brexit & force them to negotiate, kowtowing as been the order of the day & in some ways we deserve to be where we are & what we end up with, from the 23rd June 2016 a strong united spine was imperative for progression & regression as fragilely followed.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is interesting, called "Confessions of a liberal brexiteer"

https://twitter.com/TheScepticIsle/stat ... 9368631297" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hard to argue with what he's saying, especially if you've been involved in any Brexit thread on here!

[dsr]

Okay. You've done nothing to convince me otherwise that your mind's conception of 'a remainer' is so warped as to make your views on brexit irredeemably disconnected from reality. Simple question: ignore the remainer trolls on the internet for a moment, do you sincerely believe that remain voters/2nd ref advocates are actually happy at paying money to be a rule-taker under May's deal? It doesn't follow that people advocating a 2nd ref would somehow also take pleasure in ending the debate with a deal (May's) they oppose so much they believe it should be taken to the people. If they wanted May's deal to pass to end the debate, they wouldn't be advocating a 2nd ref.

I don't actually think that calling anyone a warped dumbo is much help, but I'll give it a try if you like. But before I get to that level, I'll give it one more go in terms which I hope I can make simple enough for you to understand. I will avoid the term "Remainer" because it's a main part of the confusion.

1. If we go for Theresa May's deal, that shoddy apology for Brexit will be all the Brexit side can possibly achieve because the government will say that the referendum result has been enacted. There will be no further referendum.

2. If we reject Theresa May's deal and Article 50 is delayed or withdrawn, the matter will not be concluded and the debate will go on. At the very minimum, there will have to be another referendum.

[CrosspoolClarets]

We're talking about friends, neighbours and public servants at the end of the day.

The friends and neighbours bit I totally accept (though, because Brexiteers are spread through the country and Remainers are gathered in big groups, Brexiteers can feel more ostracised if they happen to be living close to many Remainers, like I do, in the countries most liberal constituency).

The public servants bit though....well, assuming you mean civil servants and MPs in this instance, have you ever worked with any?

Civil servants tend to be the most biased, vindictive and frankly dim bunch of people I have ever had the displeasure to work with, and I’ve worked with them a lot. That many are seeking to thwart Brexit with no regard to democracy is no surprise to me at all. They simply don’t care about normal people. Often, they have never met one.

When looking at those who refuse to build bridges, this is where to look.

[Lancasterclaret]

But the only people who think Mays deal isn't Brexit are the ERG.

Thats 70 MPs out of 650.

You have said yourself that you are an ex-UKIP supporter.

You want something that at the very most 10% of the country want, and about 11% of MPs.

You don't have a democratic mandate for that, and you refuse to be satisfied with us actually leaving the EU.

[Lancasterclaret]

The Brexiteer narrative that its the remoaner civil service that is to blame is getting a little tiresome.

There is absolutely thousands of articles written by people in the know why the perfect Brexit hasn't been achieved.

You know what, the perfect Brexit is like communism. The only reason it doesn't work is that its the fault of something else. It can never be the ideology itself.

[Jakubclaret]

The Brexiteer narrative that its the remoaner civil service that is to blame is getting a little tiresome.

There is absolutely thousands of articles written by people in the know why the perfect Brexit hasn't been achieved.

You know what, the perfect Brexit is like communism. The only reason it doesn't work is that its the fault of something else. It can never be the ideology itself.

The people who purport to be in the “know” are remainers & ideogically opposed to brexit, the idea of brexit even in a embryonic form has vast potential yet to be fully realised.

[dsr]

But the only people who think Mays deal isn't Brexit are the ERG.

Thats 70 MPs out of 650.

You have said yourself that you are an ex-UKIP supporter.

You want something that at the very most 10% of the country want, and about 11% of MPs.

You don't have a democratic mandate for that, and you refuse to be satisfied with us actually leaving the EU.

Of course it's Brexit. But when I voted for Brexit, I wasn't intending that everything would carry on as before except that we would pay them £40bn and no longer have a vote. I expected change.

I'm sure you were equally scathing a few years back about Blackpool fans who wanted Karl Oyston off the board of directors. And then he got a two year ban from being a company director so he had to resign. Were they happy? No, because they knew he was still in the background and still calling the shots through his puppet director. They had Oyston off the board, in name, but they hadn't got what they wanted.

The EU is still calling the shots and we still have to dance to their tune. This is Brexit In Name Only. It's not just a phrase, it means something.

[Jakubclaret]

Harking back to that particular day going to the voting booth it was a simple stay or leave scenario, I guess people’s intentions were that the voted counted & it would actually mean something, as it’s transpiring it’s appearing more likely that what they voted for means nothing, if we are still tied to the EU that particular day or hr or however long it took queuing up was a complete waste of time.

[Spiral]

I don't actually think that calling anyone a warped dumbo is much help, but I'll give it a try if you like. But before I get to that level, I'll give it one more go in terms which I hope I can make simple enough for you to understand. I will avoid the term "Remainer" because it's a main part of the confusion.

1. If we go for Theresa May's deal, that shoddy apology for Brexit will be all the Brexit side can possibly achieve because the government will say that the referendum result has been enacted. There will be no further referendum.

2. If we reject Theresa May's deal and Article 50 is delayed or withdrawn, the matter will not be concluded and the debate will go on. At the very minimum, there will have to be another referendum.

Those two fairly reasonable but obvious points don't actually do anything to address the issue I had with your blatant mischaracterisation of remainer intent and your suggestion that remain voters would be, to use your word, "pleased", with vassalage for the sake of ending the debate. It's offensive, quite frankly, because it plays into this bullshit narrative that remainers somehow care less for the well-being of the country than you, or that I favour the EU over my own country, or that remainers would sabotage the nation in order to take down brexit, or that we're traitors or quislings. But you seem to be distancing yourself from that earlier point with your last post, so there we go. If we leave with either May's deal or no-deal at 22:59:59 on March 29th, the remainer campaign for rejoining the EU and the brexiteer campaign for withdrawing from the withdrawal will begin at 23:00:01 the very same day. Nothing will make this go away.