David Davis resigns

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ringo, your posts on a whole host of subjects on this board mean you are completely the wrong person to argue about someone democratic credentials.

IMHO of course!

As I said earlier, over 2 years of you kicking and screaming and being in a semi permanent state of hissy fit about the result of the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed. Shows you lack the very same credentials.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:59 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:As I said earlier, over 2 years of you kicking and screaming and being in a semi permanent state of hissy fit about the result of the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed. Shows you lack the very same credentials.

You've been on a 2-year hissy fit and you claim your side won.

Even when the courts made a decision (you know those courts you said should be making our decisions?), you threw an absolute epic wobbler because you didn't like it and called the judges the anti-democratic, or traitors, or whatever it was you called them.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:03 pm

No it doesn't.

But again, you read what you want to read. Which it why it is pointless talking to you about this. Its either the Ringo way or its no way.

That level of flexibility is about as undemocratic as it can get.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:14 pm

If it be your will wrote:I think May's deal would be knocked out, too. But the second round would be between no-deal and remain, a fundamentally different choice to the original referendum, and the result might therefore be completely different.

It might indeed. It could be about two thirds remain, but I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be.

My reasoning is that the 52% Brexit voters do not like the EU. Some of them actively dislike the EU, and the rest are not fans. The 48% Remain voters are split between those who tolerate the EU for the benefits it brings. and those who actively like the EU. The how many of the non-fans of the EU who voted Brexit, will change their minds because (while still not fans) they think the options are worse? And crucially, how many of the Remain-voting non-fans who are willing to tolerate the EU, have changed their mind and are no longer willing to tolerate it?

I reckon it would still be a close vote.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:15 pm

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:17 pm

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:18 pm

If it be your will wrote:Assuming it were put to the vote, and assuming 'remain' really did mean 'remain on current terms', anybody else willing to commit to an order of preference?

1. Leave
2. I probably wouldn't have a second vote. May's fudge is abysmal, and it's possible that remaining in might leave us in a better position than the fudge, but I wouldn't want my vote to count as a "remain" vote where they could argue that a resounding majority voted remain.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You've been on a 2-year hissy fit and you claim your side won.

Even when the courts made a decision (you know those courts you said should be making our decisions?), you threw an absolute epic wobbler because you didn't like it and called the judges the anti-democratic, or traitors, or whatever it was you called them.

No hissy fit here. Just call people out who don't accept democracy.

And those that don't think that holocaust deniers are liars! They just "have an opinion!!!!!!"

Now which weapons grade idiot said that utter garbage imploding turtles head!!!!!?

Clue- the UTC message board resident Zero in a Halfshell

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:23 pm

No doubt it will be close, which would kind of defeat the object.

But unless someone can unblock the parliamentary log jam on this, what other options are they that are democratic? (and understanding that the current situation does not have a democratic mandate, whichever way you voted)

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:25 pm

I think it's almost certain that if we went to Barnier and said: "If the British public support it in a referendum we want to revoke Article 50 and continue under EXACTLY the same terms as now", then he would be able to get the EU to agree.
Why wouldn't they? They would be risking the nightmare of a No deal scenario that would be very damaging for both sides.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:26 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No it doesn't.

But again, you read what you want to read. Which it why it is pointless talking to you about this. Its either the Ringo way or its no way.

That level of flexibility is about as undemocratic as it can get.

Yes it does! Let's test your democratic credentials or otherwise shall we!?

Do you accept the result of the referendum held on 23rd June 2016?

Yes or No?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:29 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No doubt it will be close, which would kind of defeat the object.

But unless someone can unblock the parliamentary log jam on this, what other options are they that are democratic? (and understanding that the current situation does not have a democratic mandate, whichever way you voted)

Why would it defeat the object? We're actually, finally know what the **** the majority of the country wants. Right now we don't know because Vote Leave argued for something and won, but are now they're claiming it would be anti-democratic if it was enacted. And this is because what they argued for and what they actually wanted were two different things.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:32 pm

Already accepted it you utter melt.

You must ask this question every month, you got short term memory loss or something?

And all you are doing is proving my point that you are completely inflexible. Just look at the posts on this thread from Brexiteers and remainers. All being able to talk about the options because of where we are now.

And two years waiting for a sensible solution which I would agree with, we get one that isn't sensible that actually means we leave the EU.

And you don't like it. I don't like it, but it fulfills the democratic mandate that she's been given so I back it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:36 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Already accepted it you utter melt.

You must ask this question every month, you got short term memory loss or something?

And all you are doing is proving my point that you are completely inflexible. Just look at the posts on this thread from Brexiteers and remainers. All being able to talk about the options because of where we are now.

And two years waiting for a sensible solution which I would agree with, we get one that isn't sensible that actually means we leave the EU.

And you don't like it. I don't like it, but it fulfills the democratic mandate that she's been given so I back it.

So if Ringo doesn't back it does that mean he is opposing the will of the people? I think it does.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:37 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Already accepted it you utter melt.

You must ask this question every month, you got short term memory loss or something?

And all you are doing is proving my point that you are completely inflexible. Just look at the posts on this thread from Brexiteers and remainers. All being able to talk about the options because of where we are now.

And two years waiting for a sensible solution which I would agree with, we get one that isn't sensible that actually means we leave the EU.

And you don't like it. I don't like it, but it fulfills the democratic mandate that she's been given so I back it.

Having a rule book set by the ECJ isn't leaving. That's why you back it. As does the contorted faced Anna Soubrey, it's not as you claim "fulfilling the democratic mandate", it's as most people agree. Brexit in name only.

And brexit in name only is democracy in name only.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm

The ECJ wasn't on the ballot two years ago.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So if Ringo doesn't back it does that mean he is opposing the will of the people? I think it does.

holocaust deniers are not liars! They just "have an opinion!!!!!!"

Now which weapons grade idiot said that utter garbage imploding turtles head!!!!!?

It's all gone very quiet in the turtle bunker. Let's see if we get an answer.....

Shhhhhh.......

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:41 pm

I love it when you go all strawman, Ringo.

It's basically accepting defeat.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:48 pm

Tony Blair wrote a good piece yesterday explaining why May's Brexit white paper is guff, and why this now needs to go back to the general public for a resolution:

https://institute.global/news/the-inbetweener-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:50 pm

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:50 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Tony Blair wrote a good piece yesterday explaining why May's Brexit white paper is guff, and why this now needs to go back to the general public for a resolution:

https://institute.global/news/the-inbetweener-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now watch as people dismiss his argument because he's a **** and not because of the content of his argument

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:51 pm

*Head in hands*

You've just spent two hours scoring own goals left, right and centre (the perfect own goal hatrick if you will!) completely proving my point far better than I ever can.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:51 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I love it when you go all strawman, Ringo. It's basically accepting defeat.

You failed to answer my question on the other thread! You failed yet again!

It's official the weapons grade idiot idiot aka imploding turtles head believes that holocaust deniers are NOT liars.

They just have an "opinon"!

After a few months of vying for pole position with the suspiciously quiet uphisownhole. Imploding Turtles Head has put himself back in his rightful place as UTC message board number 1 gold plated idiot!!

Great to see you back on top! For swerving and not answering a simple question repeatedly, you also receive the golden boot for being the boards hapless clown!

Clean sweep for Team Bunker!

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:*Head in hands*

You've just spent two hours scoring own goals left, right and centre (the perfect own goal hatrick if you will!) completely proving my point far better than I ever can.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:53 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:You failed to answer my question on the other thread! You failed yet again!

It's official the weapons grade idiot idiot aka imploding turtles head believes that holocaust deniers are NOT liars.

They just have an "opinon"!

After a few months of vying for pole position with the suspiciously quiet uphisownhole. Imploding Turtles Head has put himself back in his rightful place as UTC message board number 1 gold plated idiot!!

Great to see you back on top! For swerving and not answering a simple question repeatedly, you also receive the golden boot for being the boards hapless clown!

Clean sweep for Team Bunker!

What question did i fail to answer?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:*Head in hands*

You've just spent two hours scoring own goals left, right and centre (the perfect own goal hatrick if you will!) completely proving my point far better than I ever can.

I could return here in 2 months and be guaranteed to find you still banging on about how bad leaving the EU is. Guarantee it.

Proving my point.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What question did i fail to answer?

Knowing they're spouting falsehoods, are they peddling lies or an opinion?

Lies or opinion?

In a word.......

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57 pm

There's been some decent discussions today and it would really be a shame to let Ringo derail it with all his nonsense. People can do what they like but it would be good for a day if everyone left him to it and didn't reply and encourage him and just got on with having the sensible debate the rest of you are having.

I fear this is heading down the toilet pretty quickly though

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:58 pm

Oh ****

You are being serious.

You really think that is undemocratic?

Seriously?

Actually don't answer that, its a rhetorical question.

I'm going to take Devils Advocates advice.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:00 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Knowing they're spouting falsehoods, are they peddling lies or an opinion?

Lies or opinion?

In a word.......

How do you know that they know they're spouting falsehoods? When you establish that as a fact then i'll answer your question with its premise. But until then i'm rejecting the premise of your question. (you don't know what that means, but that's ok)

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:01 pm

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:01 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh ****

You are being serious.

You really think that is undemocratic?

Seriously?

Not respecting the result of a referendum, which is what you're doing, is not accepting democracy .

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose .

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh ****

You are being serious.

You really think that is undemocratic?

Seriously?

Yes he is! I'm not sure he knows what the word democracy means.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:04 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Not respecting the result of a referendum, which is what you're doing, is not accepting democracy .

Democracy - it means sometimes you lose .

What happened to "Leave Means Leave"? May's deal means we leave. The public voted to leave. You've spend two years saying that the way to obey the will of the people is to leave.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:What happened to "Leave Means Leave"? May's deal means we leave. The public voted to leave. You've spend two years saying that the way to obey the will of the people is to leave.

Come on! Don't you know? Brexit in name alone is democracy in name alone.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:08 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:How do you know that they know they're spouting falsehoods? When you establish that as a fact then i'll answer your question with its premise. But until then i'm rejecting the premise of your question. (you don't know what that means, but that's ok)

Just listen to yourself!!!

"How do you know they're spouting falsehoods!!!??

What a ****** idiot.

This is how the US holocaust memorial museum describes holocaust denial-

"Holocaust denial and minimization or distortion of the facts of the Holocaust"

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/art ... d=10007273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But it turtles head the "minimization or distortion of facts" is not lying!!!!!!

Imploding Turtles Head - taking cretinous to a new level.

I rest my case.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:11 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:

Just listen to yourself!!!

"How do you know they're spouting falsehoods!!!??

What a ****** idiot.

...[snip]

I think if you have to delete words from someones sentence to criticise the sentence then you've already lost.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh ****

You are being serious.

You really think that is undemocratic?

Seriously?

Actually don't answer that, its a rhetorical question.

I'm going to take Devils Advocates advice.

See you in 2 months still banging the drum for remain!

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:14 pm

The remainers favourite legal expert David Allen green has said on twitter that there isn't enough time for a second referendum as it would need primary and secondary legislation.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:At the danger of going through all this again

- it was "Yes" or "No" - you interpret it the way you wanted to, I do as well

- You refuse to accept that the four pillars of the EU are non-negotiable. Why on earth would you still think they are?

- Norway is not in the EU and neither is Switzerland. They have deals with the EU where you have to accept some loss of sovereignty. To think you can have a deal with ANY country without suffering some loss of sovereignty (ie a court to sort out disagreements) is disingenuous at best

Then why can't the court be an international one, with an independent look on things. We have the European court, which has an obviously self interested calling of the EU.
It's one of the main issues. Sovereignty is important, but you negotiate your differences. You don't negotiate with Brussels. You talk with them and then they tell you what to do. That's dictatorship however you want to paint it.
We voted leave, whatever your take on it. May isn't delivering it, she has to go. There haven't been any meaningful negotiations, because the EU can sit there with their fingers in their ears, knowing that all the bickering on the home front is doing their job for them. We need somebody in charge who says, unless we deal we walk, and means it. Then the negotiations might get somewhere.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:19 pm

May's option will not be on the table for long as the EU will water it down further, even if it got through the Commons. So not many would vote for any eventual 'middle/cop out' option. In any event most people would only vote for 1 option on their ballot i.e. leave or remain. If the EU tried to remove our current opt outs, especially schengen and the euro or remove or rebate, it would play into Leave's hand.

More time is obviously needed as the establishment and labour's games has prevented us negoitating from a stronger position. However, the same people are desperate to keep us in until there is another GE. Hence Gove still backing May. He just wants us out.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:26 pm

I cannot (or wish I could not) believe that the media are giving airtime to the idea of a 2nd Ref which deliberately uses the chaotic negotiations to suggest a 3-way set of options in which the Leave vote would be split between two of them. I could suggest a different set of 3 questions that would guarantee Leave won - it isn’t difficult, you just split the remain vote instead. That is why Ringo is exactly right above in suggesting it is an undemocratic suggestion, and those mocking him need to get their blinkers off and brains on.

Seriously, the media, some politicians and the total muppets who egg them on are driving an even bigger wedge between people and levering it ever wider. It is crazy. Absolutely crazy. The repercussions would make the decision as to whether to stay in the EU totally immaterial. The likes of Greening, Soubry, Clegg, Blair etc are doing more damage to this country than has been done since WW2.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:27 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I cannot (or wish I could not) believe that the media are giving airtime to the idea of a 2nd Ref which deliberately uses the chaotic negotiations to suggest a 3-way set of options in which the Leave vote would be split between two of them.

Seriously, the media, some politicians and the total muppets who egg them on are driving an even bigger wedge between people and levering it ever wider. It is crazy. Absolutely crazy. The repercussions would make the decision as to whether to stay in the EU totally immaterial.

What's the problem of the leave vote being split in a ranked choice referendum? If you don't understand how ranked choice works then i'm sure people would be happy to explain it to you.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:34 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:The likes of Greening, Soubry, Clegg, Blair etc are doing more damage to this country than has been done since WW2.

You're blaming the firefighters when you should be blaming the arsonists, Crosspool.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:41 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I cannot (or wish I could not) believe that the media are giving airtime to the idea of a 2nd Ref which deliberately uses the chaotic negotiations to suggest a 3-way set of options in which the Leave vote would be split between two of them. I could suggest a different set of 3 questions that would guarantee Leave won - it isn’t difficult, you just split the remain vote instead. That is why Ringo is exactly right above in suggesting it is an undemocratic suggestion, and those mocking him need to get their blinkers off and brains on.

Seriously, the media, some politicians and the total muppets who egg them on are driving an even bigger wedge between people and levering it ever wider. It is crazy. Absolutely crazy. The repercussions would make the decision as to whether to stay in the EU totally immaterial. The likes of Greening, Soubry, Clegg, Blair etc are doing more damage to this country than has been done since WW2.

Holy ****. You really don't understand, do you? And you're not gonna ask in case someone shows your fears as unfounded. So i'm going to explain for you.

In ranked-choice elections no winner can win without a majority.So it doesn't matter if the leave or remain vote is split. Unless one option has a majority then it goes to the next round of voting.

Like this:

Round 1:

Remain: 40%
Leave - No Deal: 35%
Leave - May's deal: 25%

Now your fear is that this means Remain wins. Your fear is unfounded. Because in Round 2, those who voted "Leave - May's deal" have their 2nd choice votes applied to whatever their 2nd choice is not that May's Deal is eliminated.

Edit: I've just remembered, Crosspool has me blocked because he's frightened of what I have to say. Would be a shame is someone quoted this and quoted his comment too so that he saw it.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:04 pm

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Holy ****. You really don't understand, do you? And you're not gonna ask in case someone shows your fears as unfounded. So i'm going to explain for you.

In ranked-choice elections no winner can win without a majority.So it doesn't matter if the leave or remain vote is split. Unless one option has a majority then it goes to the next round of voting.

Like this:

Round 1:

Remain: 40%
Leave - No Deal: 35%
Leave - May's deal: 25%

Now your fear is that this means Remain wins. Your fear is unfounded. Because in Round 2, those who voted "Leave - May's deal" have their 2nd choice votes applied to whatever their 2nd choice is not that May's Deal is eliminated.

Edit: I've just remembered, Crosspool has me blocked because he's frightened of what I have to say. Would be a shame is someone quoted this and quoted his comment too so that he saw it.

This only works if May's deal comes third, if May's deal comes second then i think it wins everytime because remainers will but no deal last and leavers would put remain last.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:27 pm

claretandy wrote:This only works if May's deal comes third, if May's deal comes second then i think it wins everytime because remainers will but no deal last and leavers would put remain last.

If May's deal actually beats either Remain or No Deal then that itselfs says a lot about what the public want and what people may have voted for when they voted Leave i.e. not a Hard Brexit like a lot of people just presume

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:41 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If May's deal actually beats either Remain or No Deal then that itselfs says a lot about what the public want and what people may have voted for when they voted Leave i.e. not a Hard Brexit like a lot of people just presume

You misunderstand, Mays deal would win by default, even though it might only get 30% in the first round.