UK Car Industry Investment Plummets Due To Brexit

[Sidney1st]

Off the top of my head I'll go with the EU army you kept making up stories about.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/87 ... ence-force" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/hea ... ctsheet_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dw.com/en/twenty-five-eu-sta ... a-41741828" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wild shot in the dark, but they aren't a million miles away from forming one.

17 joint defense projects

Officials have earmarked 17 joint projects that will fall under the scope of the PESCO agreement. These include establishing a pan-European military training center, improving capability development and even introducing common standards for military radio communication.

Germany is to take the lead on four projects: the creation of a pan-European medical unit, a logistics hub, a center for training missions and an initiative to build up faster crisis response forces.

Those projects are expected to be formally adopted early next year, with participating countries also invited to propose additional programs

[aggi]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/87 ... ence-force

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/hea ... ctsheet_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.dw.com/en/twenty-five-eu-sta ... a-41741828" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wild shot in the dark, but they aren't a million miles away from forming one.

Some top quality selective quoting in the Express article.

If you read the actual detail we're a very long way from forming one (and given that we had an absolute veto over it it wasn't something we'd have been forced into regardless).

[Lancasterclaret]

To have a European army you need

Its TOE, its bases, its units, its supplies, its expenditure, its training schedule, its C & C system, its remit, its job, its equipment......I could go on and on and on and on.

Basically, anyone telling you that we are close to forming a European Army does not know what they are talking about.

[Sidney1st]

The start is what's on the reports for shared training, medical stuff, radio systems and a head quarters.

It would go on from there.

It's a reasonable step to think that an actual Army would be formed eventually.
Maybe not any time soon, but it's still possible.

In theory it would make sense with the size of the EU, but the logistics involved would be very complex.
However with Nato and the UN Peace keeping forces there are already proven examples of armed forces working with each other as a single entity.

I personally wouldn't see an issue with it, because the UK wouldn't necessarily need to commit their whole army to it, they could rotate units in and out accordingly.

[dsr]

Paragraph 49 is probably what you want https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I knew the negotiators weren't doing well, but didn't realise they were as clueless as that. The absolute simplest of red lines to draw, and they didn't draw it. No wonder the EU appear to think they can get everything they want and leave us with nothing.

[Sidney1st]

To have a European army you need

Its TOE, its bases, its units, its supplies, its expenditure, its training schedule, its C & C system, its remit, its job, its equipment......I could go on and on and on and on.

Basically, anyone telling you that we are close to forming a European Army does not know what they are talking about.

It isn't a million miles away though if there was a determination to do it.

NATO and the UN Peace keeping forces can be used as templates if needs be in many aspects.

Yes there is probably a fair bit of scaremongering about it, but it's not impossible and the steps laid out in the links would be a starting point.

[Lancasterclaret]

"fair bit" is understatement of the century sid.

Our enemies are not going to be in the EU. Ever.

We can no longer trust that the US interests mirror those of the Europeans.

I don't think we need a European army, but we do need a NATO that is majority financed and the majority of its troops being European.

[Bacchus]

No wonder the EU appear to think they can get everything they want and leave us with nothing.

EU get everything they want? I'd love to find a quote suggesting that anybody in the EU wanted any part in this farce. This situation is entirely of our (UK) making, and expecting the EU27 to come up with solutions that suit us is incredibly arrogant.

[Lancasterclaret]

But it is how Brexiteers think.

**** me, how many times have they dragged up the "German cars to the UK" stuff?

This world economy that we are now suddenly relying on will happily take up the shortfall because the Germans make damn good cars.

Our jam based economy is going to have to work hard to catch up.

[dsr]

EU get everything they want? I'd love to find a quote suggesting that anybody in the EU wanted any part in this farce. This situation is entirely of our (UK) making, and expecting the EU27 to come up with solutions that suit us is incredibly arrogant.

You don't think there should be any negotiation at all - we do exactly what the EU demands?

[Lancasterclaret]

They are open to negotiations dsr, but only realistic ones.

The 19 months of trying to tell people that "yes, we can have our cake and eat it" is going to hit the buffers in about, I dunno, four hours time?

[dsr]

But it is how Brexiteers think.

**** me, how many times have they dragged up the "German cars to the UK" stuff?

This world economy that we are now suddenly relying on will happily take up the shortfall because the Germans make damn good cars.

Our jam based economy is going to have to work hard to catch up.

Again, that's not how businesses work. The German car manufacturers are already selling all the cars they can to the USA etc.; they don't have a "reserve market" that they can choose to exploit if they lose the UK market. Businesses don't have a target sales figure that they don't want to exceed - they want sales tro go up and up.

[Lancasterclaret]

Brilliant

So by your own words, they isn't new markets for us to exploit after Brexit.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm done here.

[Sidney1st]

The Germans make damned good cars?

Emissions regulations (VAG Group), Engine issues (Audi TFSI lawsuit USA which they lost I think), Gearbox problems (Golf mk 4-5-6 known for punching holes in the box), abs ring faults with the BMW's , Mercedes 3ltr Diesel engine has issues with glow plugs dropping into the engine and smashing pistons.

There are other issues but you get the point I'm sure.

A car is generally only as good as it's marketing campaign or overall history.
Yes German Cars are usually very good but they do also have a history of problems that rarely get mentioned compared to French cars & electrics.

[Sidney1st]

Brilliant

So by your own words, they isn't new markets for us to exploit after Brexit.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm done here.

Not sure how you can be done....

We'd be making our own trade deals so it would be like a 'new' market.
Trade deals tailored for the UK, not 27 nations with differing needs.

[dsr]

Brilliant

So by your own words, they isn't new markets for us to exploit after Brexit.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm done here.

Sidney's answered it a lot more tactfully than I would have done.

[Pstotto]

The press is doing that, particularly the Guardian, by UK-bashing under the auspices of critique. The sport-of-the-Gods UK parliamentary system by its trivial and rather stupid dialectical front (a method of debate that should have died out 2000 years ago regarding the idiot logic of thesis-antithesis-synthesis bullsh*t,) suggest an eternal victory as a political message inasmuch as it presents a club indulging in the act of childish fighting over the spoils.

I'm fooled by it, because it's incomprehensible by its very nature.

[RingoMcCartney]

Off the top of my head I'll go with the EU army you kept making up stories about.

Doh you got me there and no mistake. I'll call it a defence force eh. Does that not make it a lie!?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-41971867" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/worl ... force.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-countr ... my-2017-11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If it looks like an army. Behaves like an army. But reality denying, gullible Remoaners want to call it something else. It's an army!

The bigger lie is saying it's not.

Enjoy the game tomorrow. And have a great weekend in your bubble of delusion aggi. Cheers.

[aggi]

I knew the negotiators weren't doing well, but didn't realise they were as clueless as that. The absolute simplest of red lines to draw, and they didn't draw it. No wonder the EU appear to think they can get everything they want and leave us with nothing.

Indeed agreeing to In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement isn't particularly a good negotiating stance. Judging by today's headlines they appear to have entirely forgotten they'd issued that three months ago.

I'd be a lot happier about Brexit if the negotiations were being carried out with any form of competence rather than the current focus which appears to be political squabbling and unrealistic soundbites. We've wasted months focusing on a load of unrealistic scenarios rather than a realistic outcome.

[RingoMcCartney]

19 months of people thinking its a football match.

And that person claims to understand the argument?

Yeah, right

Some quality sneering once again Mr superior.

The referendum was not a football match. But please please please stop clinging onto the idea that the refs waiting for the VAR to give you a different outcome.

You've huffed n puffed on here, along with the rest of the gaggle of ceaseless Remoaners, for over 18 months. Yet the result still stands.

We're leaving the EU. You lost.

[quoonbeatz]

always amusing when someone posts links to support their POV that don't support there POV.

they boards number one hoister, hoisting himself by his own petard, yet again.

[Lancasterclaret]

Some quality sneering once again Mr superior.

Sneering?

I did the legwork to make sure I knew what I was talking about. Back in the day, that was absolutely essential.

Now its "sneering"

Brexit Britain 2018. We are going to do so, so, so well.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is a good thread on the speech that May has just made. pretty fair summary.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/969568655007731712" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

Oh, and argument is

Germany can't find new markets for its cars

But we can. For everything we make.

Unicorn based economics is alive and well.

I'd actually be annoyed if is wasn't to be honest, its much more fun this way.

[Sidney1st]

Why has it got to be for stuff we make?

As a country we've imported goods to re-sell for years now, it's been a fairly big issue over the years.

[quoonbeatz]

may's speech today was one of the most ridiculous ever made by a prime minister.

genuinely can't think of a government so unfit for purpose as this one, in my lifetime.

[Lancasterclaret]

From the Political editor of the Daily Mail - yes, THAT Daily Mail

"PM has set out enormously complex project to keep things basically the same after Brexit - can’t help wondering if she really thinks it’s worth it"

[Lancasterclaret]

Again, Germany can't find new markets but we magically can?

It looks pretty cut and dried from here.

[Sidney1st]

Every market is 'new' in effect because the trade deals will be new, we can negotiate terms to suit our country, not a continent.

[Lancasterclaret]

Jesus

Thats pure Brexiteer ******** in the nicest possible way Sid

Who has more traction? One country? or 27?

[Sidney1st]

The bigger group, I already know that from my industry.

My point is we're going to be taking these steps and there will be new trade deals to be made around the world...

[Lancasterclaret]

The EU already have free trade deals with all the countries that we are going to (except the USA, and that isn't a straightforward one)

How will ours be better?

They. won't. be.

Economic suicide is what it is, and if thats what er "sovereignty" is worth, then knock yourselves out.

[dsr]

Oh, and argument is

Germany can't find new markets for its cars

But we can. For everything we make.

Unicorn based economics is alive and well.

I'd actually be annoyed if is wasn't to be honest, its much more fun this way.

No, that's not the argument.

The argument is, German car manufacturers can't chase new markets if they lose the UK market. They're already chasing all available markets. There are no areas where they could chase sales but aren't bothering.

[Damo]

BUDAPEST — Britain’s decision to leave the European Union is “Brussels’ failure,” Hungary’s foreign minister said Friday at a press conference in which he appeared alongside British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.

“Hungary has always respected the decision of the British people, though it has felt sorry about this decision,” Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó told reporters. “But at the same time we need to highlight that this decision was Brussels’ failure.”

The British people, he said, made their concerns about the bloc known ahead of the June 2016 referendum but the European Commission did not listen.

“This current European Commission will go down in history books as the European Commission under whose mandate Europe’s second-strongest and the world’s fifth-strongest economy decided to leave the EU,” Szijjártó said.

Hungary, he added, continues to see “Brexit as a huge problem from the EU’s perspective.”

https://www.politico.eu/article/hungari ... n-failure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nil_desperandum]

No, that's not the argument.

The argument is, German car manufacturers can't chase new markets if they lose the UK market. They're already chasing all available markets. There are no areas where they could chase sales but aren't bothering.

Am I missing something here?
Why will some markets be available to us but not the Germans?
And will there not be quite a big gap in the EU for more German cars if the UK are either not trading there or operating under tariffs that make them less competitive?

[Damo]

Am I missing something here?
Why will some markets be available to us but not the Germans?
And will there not be quite a big gap in the EU for more German cars if the UK are either not trading there or operating under tariffs that make them less competitive?

Sorry, which British car manufacturers are currently trading in the EU?

[Lancasterclaret]

You are not missing anything nil

The argument is, German car manufacturers can't chase new markets if they lose the UK market. They're already chasing all available markets. There are no areas where they could chase sales but aren't bothering.

They are none for us either using that analogy.

There has to be (there aren't) or any economic argument for Brexit is totally bogus.

Guess what er "project fear" has been saying all along........

[JohnMcGreal]

I find remainers really odd because 90% of the world's population want to be free from governance.

Have you got any evidence to support that nonsense you just posted?

Anything yet, Damo?

[Lancasterclaret]

Also worth mentioning that this is the first attempt at reality by the PM.

Not in everything, but its a start.

Hey, we might have an agreement yet that doesn't shaft us.

[nil_desperandum]

Sorry, which British car manufacturers are currently trading in the EU?

I didn't mention British car manufacturers, but we do build cars and export them to the EU , do we not.?

[Damo]

Anything yet, Damo?

It was obviously a generalisation johnmcgreal.
Are you going to chase me around the messageboard until I find some actual figures about people not wanting to be told how to live?

[Damo]

I didn't mention British car manufacturers, but we do build cars and export them to the EU , do we not.?

We do, that's right. In smaller and smaller numbers.
Thanks to the EU. Hopefully this is one area of manufacturing that the Brexit result might save

[nil_desperandum]

We do, that's right. In smaller and smaller numbers.
Thanks to the EU. Hopefully this is one area of manufacturing that the Brexit result might save

Are you sure?
From the most recent stats I can find almost 60% of cars manufactured in the UK are exported to the EU.
By contrast approx 1 in 7 German cars are exported to the UK.(Around 15%)
In numerical terms we export just under 800,000 to the EU and the Germans export just over 800,000 to the UK.
So basically my point stands that the Germans could potentially sell virtually all the cars they currently export to the UK within the EU if tariffs are applied to cars manufactured in the UK and demand thus goes down.
So far as new markets worldwide are concerned, I think you'll find that by the time we get to the sun-loungers they will already have German towels all over them. They are miles ahead of us.

[Sidney1st]

The EU already have free trade deals with all the countries that we are going to (except the USA, and that isn't a straightforward one)

How will ours be better?

They. won't. be.

Economic suicide is what it is, and if thats what er "sovereignty" is worth, then knock yourselves out.

They will be better suited to the UK, I'm sure I've said this a few times now..

[dsr]

Are you sure?
From the most recent stats I can find almost 60% of cars manufactured in the UK are exported to the EU.

More like 45% of cars manufactured are exported to the EU; 56% of cars exported are exported to the EU.

[dsr]

Am I missing something here?
Why will some markets be available to us but not the Germans?
And will there not be quite a big gap in the EU for more German cars if the UK are either not trading there or operating under tariffs that make them less competitive?

Yes. What Lancaster is saying is that the Germans won't suffer by losing UK sales because they can just sell more cars elsewhere.

What I am saying is that they're already selling as many cars as they can elsewhere, and while they can and will continue to expand their overseas trade, it won't be any extra to what they would have done if they had kept the UK market.

[Tall Paul]

They will be better suited to the UK, I'm sure I've said this a few times now..

In what way?

[Lancasterclaret]

Because thats what the unicorn brexit theory is.

I fail to see how a free trade deal with South Korea (for example) will be better for the UK than the current EU one is.

How can it be?

[Lancasterclaret]

No DSR

What I am saying is that using that theory which you have, when applied fairly to both German Cars and British jam is that there is no extra markets out there for either.

The German hit on car production (people who can afford Mercs and Beemers are just going to pay more anyway) will be nothing like the UK hit on absolutely everything.

[nil_desperandum]

More like 45% of cars manufactured are exported to the EU; 56% of cars exported are exported to the EU.

Fair enough I got the percentage of exports and percentage of cars produced mixed up, but nonetheless it's 56% of our exports that currently go to the EU, which is the majority, and hell of a lot of cars.
According to the figures that I can find it's just over 750,000, which is only about 50,000 less than the Germans export to us, so whilst potentially (under WTO rule)s German cars might be more expensive in the UK, our cars would equally be be more expensive in the EU, so there is a potential opening for more sales within the EU for the Germans to compensate.
Whether we would find a market for 750,000 vehicles outside the EU - I've no idea, but if that market were there, then I suspect that the Germans would be in there ahead of us.