Benefit system to get a 10.1% pay increase

[Jakubclaret]

Actually you’re paying for all those that went on furlough. Taxes aren’t going up because of benefit claimants and pensioners.

Benefit claimants & pensioners certainly won't be helping the finances with regard to taxation but you are undeniably right with the increases linked to furlough.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I guess it all depends on whether you think its ok to let people really struggle in the 6th largest economy in the world Newcastle

I’m not sure how suggesting everyone pays the same level of tax equals that?

All this increase in taxation will do is result in more tax avoidance. The loopholes are there and people will just take advantage.

[Quickenthetempo]

I’m not sure how suggesting everyone pays the same level of tax equals that?

All this increase in taxation will do is result in more tax avoidance. The loopholes are there and people will just take advantage.

People rich enough to employ good accountants will.

[Lancasterclaret]

I’m not sure how suggesting everyone pays the same level of tax equals that?

All this increase in taxation will do is result in more tax avoidance. The loopholes are there and people will just take advantage.

there will be loopholes if everyone pays the same rate of tax as well

[martin_p]

I’m not sure how suggesting everyone pays the same level of tax equals that?

All this increase in taxation will do is result in more tax avoidance. The loopholes are there and people will just take advantage.

But everyone pays broadly the same amount for the basics in life like food, petrol, heating, etc so the person losing 20% of say £100 a week is going to struggle to pay for those basics whereas someone losing 20% of £1000 a week isn’t. So it’s not unreasonable to expect the £1000 earner to pay a little more and still not struggle so that the £100 earner can pay less and not struggle as well.

[Lancasterclaret]

People rich enough to employ good accountants will.

You don't need to be rich to employ good accountants, you just have to know that a good accountant will save you more money than you pay them in fees, and it will all be legal*

*if it isn't, then he or she is not a good accountant

[Bosscat]

You don't need to be rich to employ good accountants, you just have to know that a good accountant will save you more money than you pay them in fees, and it will all be legal*

*if it isn't, then he or she is not a good accountant

[Newcastleclaret93]

But everyone pays broadly the same amount for the basics in life like food, petrol, heating, etc so the person losing 20% of say £100 a week is going to struggle to pay for those basics whereas someone losing 20% of £1000 a week isn’t. So it’s not unreasonable to expect the £1000 earner to pay a little more and still not struggle so that the £100 earner can pay less and not struggle as well.

Yes, but what I’m saying is how is that fair? The person earning 10 times more as a general rule of thumb has a considerably harder job. They will also be paying ten times more tax than the person earning less.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes, but what I’m saying is how is that fair? The person earning 10 times more as a general rule of thumb has a considerably harder job. They will also be paying ten times more tax than the person earning less.

Why have they got a considerably harder job?

I don't get that at all, I've had well paying, hard working jobs, and I've had **** paying, hard working jobs

In my experience, the people who don't work hard at their jobs don't have a job for very long

[Big Vinny K]

I’m not sure how suggesting everyone pays the same level of tax equals that?

All this increase in taxation will do is result in more tax avoidance. The loopholes are there and people will just take advantage.

Dropping the threshold for the highest tax rate will bring in more tax revenue - that is a simple fact. If you are an employee and you are impacted by this it will be very difficult if not impossible to avoid the additional tax burden.

If you run your own business and you are impacted by the drop in threshold there is a good chance that your accountant was already maximising the legal ways of avoiding tax already.

As for everybody paying the same tax rate how on earth would that bring in the same tax revenues without hitting the lower income people the hardest ? Look what happened to the economy when Truss had a stab in the dark at one part of this.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Why have they got a considerably harder job?

I don't get that at all, I've had well paying, hard working jobs, and I've had **** paying, hard working jobs

In my experience, the people who don't work hard at their jobs don't have a job for very long

Surely the definition is based around the repercussions of a mistake.

If you have a bad day in retail, someone might get a bad coffee or you have had a customer complaint.

If you have a bad day in high end banking or construction, you could be talking about someone losing a life or millions of pounds.

I fully appreciate that all jobs can be long hours and physically demanding. But they don’t carry the same repercussions. I believe that people that have to deal with that shouldn’t be punished with considerably higher taxation.

[martin_p]

Yes, but what I’m saying is how is that fair? The person earning 10 times more as a general rule of thumb has a considerably harder job. They will also be paying ten times more tax than the person earning less.

If that was true then nurses and teachers would earn more than most professions. They don’t.

[Lancasterclaret]

Surely the definition is based around the repercussions of a mistake.

If you have a bad day in retail, someone might get a bad coffee or you have had a customer complaint.

If you have a bad day in high end banking or construction, you could be talking about someone losing a life or millions of pounds.

I fully appreciate that all jobs can be long hours and physically demanding. But they don’t carry the same repercussions. I believe that people that have to deal with that shouldn’t be punished with considerably higher taxation.

Its Page 10 and we are at "let feel sorry for the bankers because they have to pay tax"

Lovely stuff

[fidelcastro]

Yes, but what I’m saying is how is that fair? The person earning 10 times more as a general rule of thumb has a considerably harder job. They will also be paying ten times more tax than the person earning less.

This snobbish notion that the low paid don't work hard is alive and well on here I see.

Let's not forget that it was the low paid who contributed to keeping the country going during supposed lockdown, myself included, when the people with "better" jobs were furloughed.

[Big Vinny K]

Surely the definition is based around the repercussions of a mistake.

If you have a bad day in retail, someone might get a bad coffee or you have had a customer complaint.

If you have a bad day in high end banking or construction, you could be talking about someone losing a life or millions of pounds.

I fully appreciate that all jobs can be long hours and physically demanding. But they don’t carry the same repercussions. I believe that people that have to deal with that shouldn’t be punished with considerably higher taxation.

Nurses ?

How do they fall into your theory ?

They work hard.
They have to deal with death
And they get paid little.

How should they be taxed ?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Surely the definition is based around the repercussions of a mistake.

If you have a bad day in retail, someone might get a bad coffee or you have had a customer complaint.

If you have a bad day in high end banking or construction, you could be talking about someone losing a life or millions of pounds.

I fully appreciate that all jobs can be long hours and physically demanding. But they don’t carry the same repercussions. I believe that people that have to deal with that shouldn’t be punished with considerably higher taxation.

Who has the more demanding job ? Which job carries the higher risk if the person has a bad day ?

Surgeon - Golfer
Fire fighter - F1 driver
Serving Armed forces member - BP chief exec

[martin_p]

Surely the definition is based around the repercussions of a mistake.

If you have a bad day in retail, someone might get a bad coffee or you have had a customer complaint.

If you have a bad day in high end banking or construction, you could be talking about someone losing a life or millions of pounds.

I fully appreciate that all jobs can be long hours and physically demanding. But they don’t carry the same repercussions. I believe that people that have to deal with that shouldn’t be punished with considerably higher taxation.

And if you have a bad day as a bus driver dozens could lose their lives. Why don’t bus drivers earn as much as high end bankers?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Nurses ?

How do they fall into your theory ?

They work hard.
They have to deal with death
And they get paid little.

How should they be taxed ?

No they are a complete freak in that respect. Doctors and nurses are underpaid given the items highlighted.

[Mala591]

It doesn’t really seem fair that workers on very low salaries might get a 5% pay rise and those on benefits/pensions get a 10% rise. They might ask themselves the question ‘what’s the point in working?’.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Its Page 10 and we are at "let feel sorry for the bankers because they have to pay tax"

Lovely stuff

Haha I haven’t said I feel sorry for them at all.

The realities of it though are that they are paid incredibly well due to how hard there job is.

[fidelcastro]

Haha I haven’t said I feel sorry for them at all.

The realities of it though are that they are paid incredibly well due to how hard there job is.

Pushing numbers around on a computer screen all day.

Yeah. It must be so stressful

[Lancasterclaret]

Haha I haven’t said I feel sorry for them at all.

The realities of it though are that they are paid incredibly well due to how hard there job is.

Replace "hard" for "lucrative" and I'd agree with you

[Newcastleclaret93]

Pushing numbers around on a computer screen all day.

Yeah. It must be so stressful

Come on Fidel surely you can’t be saying that dealing with multimillion pounds every day isn’t stressful.

They have a horrible reputation (most likely deserved) but you can’t say that role isn’t stressful

[RVclaret]

Pushing numbers around on a computer screen all day.

Yeah. It must be so stressful

Tell me you haven't got a clue about banking without telling me you haven't got a clue about banking.

For what it's worth, I have a friend who's a VP at Morgan Stanley, she works 15-16 hour days and barely sleeps.

I have many other friends who would not work more than 8 hour days if their life depended on it.

[fidelcastro]

Tell me you haven't got a clue about banking without telling me you haven't got a clue about banking.

For what it's worth, I have a friend who's a VP at Morgan Stanley, she works 15-16 hour days and barely sleeps.

I have many other friends who would not work more than 8 hour days if their life depended on it.

My heart bleeds for them.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Tell me you haven't got a clue about banking without telling me you haven't got a clue about banking.

For what it's worth, I have a friend who's a VP at Morgan Stanley, she works 15-16 hour days and barely sleeps.

I have many other friends who would not work more than 8 hour days if their life depended on it.

You would think everyone would just be a banker given how easy it is (and totally not stressful).

[martin_p]

It doesn’t really seem fair that workers on very low salaries might get a 5% pay rise and those on benefits/pensions get a 10% rise. They might ask themselves the question ‘what’s the point in working?’.

Because they are likely taking more home than those on just benefit. I’ve never found the ‘what’s the point in having more money’ argument that powerful! Besides, those on very low salaries are likely on benefit as well.

[fidelcastro]

You would think everyone would just be a banker given how easy it is (and totally not stressful).

Not at all. You need a certain greedy mindset to be a banker, and thankfully not all of us are like that.

It doesn't mean they work harder than those considerably less well paid, and don't get me started on their ridiculous bonuses!

[quoonbeatz]

Tell me you haven't got a clue about banking without telling me you haven't got a clue about banking.

For what it's worth, I have a friend who's a VP at Morgan Stanley, she works 15-16 hour days and barely sleeps.

I have many other friends who would not work more than 8 hour days if their life depended on it.

VP job title always makes me laugh, sounds way more important than it is.

[RVclaret]

Not at all. You need a certain greedy mindset to be a banker, and thankfully not all of us are like that.

It doesn't mean they work harder than those considerably less well paid, and don't get me started on their ridiculous bonuses!

Sorry that's nonsense!

And yes they do, in general, work harder than those considerably less well paid.

You sound quite jealous tbh.

[Lancasterclaret]

Tell me you haven't got a clue about banking without telling me you haven't got a clue about banking.

For what it's worth, I have a friend who's a VP at Morgan Stanley, she works 15-16 hour days and barely sleeps.

I have many other friends who would not work more than 8 hour days if their life depended on it.

I used to work in a transport office, and I did 15-16 hour days, without much sleep and phone calls through the night

I bet your VP earned a lot more than I did

And I'm sure I'm not the only one

[RVclaret]

I used to work in a transport office, and I did 15-16 hour days, without much sleep and phone calls through the night

I bet your VP earned a lot more than I did

Probably, and I bet the job entails a far higher level of responsibility and complexity to justify the higher salary!

[Newcastleclaret93]

I have never understood this argument.

Surely if it’s so easy being a banker or a chief exec of a gas and oil company. Everyone would do it.

Why would you actively choose to work in a transport office if it’s easy to do the role of a banker.

[Lancasterclaret]

Probably, and I bet the job entails a far higher level of responsibility and complexity to justify the higher salary!

I dunno mate, I had responsibility for fifty HGVs, around 500 trailers and hundreds of customers

I don't do that anymore because it was basically changing who I was

But my real point is that there are lots of hard jobs, with lots of responsibilities and not all of them are well paid

I like the idea of a flat rate of tax, but its impossible in a connected global economy

[claretonthecoast1882]

I have never understood this argument.

Surely if it’s so easy being a banker or a chief exec of a gas and oil company. Everyone would do it.

Why would you actively choose to work in a transport office if it’s easy to do the role of a banker.

Don't you feel as a crypto millionaire that you should pay a slighter higher rate of tax than say someone struggling on 15k a year ?

[Lancasterclaret]

I have never understood this argument.

Surely if it’s so easy being a banker or a chief exec of a gas and oil company. Everyone would do it.

Why would you actively choose to work in a transport office if it’s easy to do the role of a banker.

I'm very sure that me and the banker would share certain key skills to be able to do the job effectively, and a lot of them are very transferable

But its moving away from the point

Which is lots of people work very hard, and lots of people get paid widely differing salary figures

[Mala591]

REAL hard/stressful work is an 8 hour shift in a busy A+E department, people bleeding and dying left, right and centre.

[Big Vinny K]

Pushing numbers around on a computer screen all day.

Yeah. It must be so stressful

You take that back FC.
Some days I had to attend meetings too.
And I remember one time having to rush back to the office after my corporate lunch and having to leave before the Stilton came out.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Don't you feel as a crypto millionaire that you should pay a slighter higher rate of tax than say someone struggling on 15k a year ?

I think you should all pay the same rate. Even if you pay the same rate the person that earns more is still paying more tax.

[martin_p]

I have never understood this argument.

Surely if it’s so easy being a banker or a chief exec of a gas and oil company. Everyone would do it.

Why would you actively choose to work in a transport office if it’s easy to do the role of a banker.

This is goalpost moving. Your argument was that people who work harder/have a harder job earn more. I think there’s enough examples here to demonstrate that isn’t the case. I’m certainly not claiming being a banker or chief exec is easy, but neither is being a nurse or a teacher and they earn a fraction of the amount bankers do.

[Big Vinny K]

VP job title always makes me laugh, sounds way more important than it is.

Those yanks.
Anything to make them feel more important than they actually are.
Unfortunately we went and copied them by introducing the term ‘executive” to many lowly paid sales jobs !

[Lancasterclaret]

REAL hard/stressful work is an 8 hour shift in a busy A+E department, people bleeding and dying left, right and centre.

Well

I've worked as a carpet deliver driver - that was real hard/stressful work (you won't believe how much 50 rolls of Duralay supreme weight till you've had to move them into a warehouse, up some stairs on your own, plus driving around the NW finding and getting all your drops off in time

I've worked as a Shipping supervisor - that was stressful (maximising the ship loads with roll on/roll off trailers and full units with drivers, liasing with the port and the dockers, and making sure a four hour turn loading and unloading is done, every day, add the 3 am starts to that as well btw)

I've worked in a transport office - already explained

I've worked in a hospital as a supply technician for the wards - ordering and delivering the stock they needed to treat patients, R & D, and liasing with the ward managers, all done in a time scale and with limited freedom of action due to NHS procedures

All hard work, all stressful, with huge variations with wages paid

See?

[Big Vinny K]

Not at all. You need a certain greedy mindset to be a banker, and thankfully not all of us are like that.

It doesn't mean they work harder than those considerably less well paid, and don't get me started on their ridiculous bonuses!

In all seriousness that is a bit of a wild generalisation.
I agree that the industry is greedy.
And I also agree that a number of people who work in the merchant banks, American banks or the ‘city” also have that mindset.
But these type of banking jobs are in the minority in the industry.

For my experience working in a normal bank as you reach the senior positions invariably you end up under a lot of pressure and you see burn out amongst your colleagues a lot. You are expected to work long long hours including the weekend. You deal with clients round the world too and are expected to fit in with their hours irrespective of time zones. For the last 10 years of my role I worked 60 or 70 hour weeks pretty much all the time and that excludes my commute into Manchester or London. I only got paid for 35 hours of this and the culture in many banks at that level was that if you didn’t work those hours you would not be in that senior role (and there were plenty queuing up to take your role)

Not expecting you to feel sorry for bankers at all. And I’m not pretending it’s anywhere near as difficult or important as many other jobs like nursing, doctors etc. In fact when you finally leave the job you very soon realise how insignificant it was compared to other jobs !!

[fatboy47]

Your argument was that people who work harder/have a harder job earn more. I think there’s enough examples here to demonstrate that isn’t the case

I've done some downright hard, sh1tty and stressful jobs in my time, trust me. I don't think a single one paid me more than the equivalent of 30k in today's terms.

Today, my income is derived from sitting on an island playing with money and making weekly phone calls to a property agent and an accountant. I work no more than 5 hours a week, ever. What I do is of almost no benefit to society yet pays me far far more than I'd ever earn doing something actually useful.

I turn out faithfully at each election and vote as near to socialism as possible, but accept the reality that the folk who'd benefit from a fairer system will always vote in favour of people with my lifestyle.

[MrTopTier]

Just when Jakub and Nori are having a rest up pops Newcastle. His world views are as bad as his football ones.

Golden is this thread.

PS There are a lot of views on this thread that are worth reading from both sides of the spectrum, so keep the debate going it makes an enjoyable change.

[Big Vinny K]

I've done some downright hard, sh1tty and stressful jobs in my time, trust me. I don't think a single one paid me more than the equivalent of 30k in today's terms.

Today, my income is derived from sitting on an island playing with money and making weekly phone calls to a property agent and an accountant. I work no more than 5 hours a week, ever. What I do is of almost no benefit to society yet pays me far far more than I'd ever earn doing something actually useful.

I turn out faithfully at each election and vote as near to socialism as possible, but accept the reality that the folk who'd benefit from a fairer system will always vote in favour of people with my lifestyle.

Great post.
Up the revolution Wolfie !!

[Jakubclaret]

This snobbish notion that the low paid don't work hard is alive and well on here I see.

Let's not forget that it was the low paid who contributed to keeping the country going during supposed lockdown, myself included, when the people with "better" jobs were furloughed.

But you are conveniently forgetting that some of the high end earners are usually late starters & have spent years studying at college & then university before graduation & along the way have accrued debt not all are propped up by the bank of mum & dad they are playing catch up to the low end for a good few years.

[Nori1958]

Well

I've worked as a carpet deliver driver - that was real hard/stressful work (you won't believe how much 50 rolls of Duralay supreme weight till you've had to move them into a warehouse, up some stairs on your own, plus driving around the NW finding and getting all your drops off in time

I've worked as a Shipping supervisor - that was stressful (maximising the ship loads with roll on/roll off trailers and full units with drivers, liasing with the port and the dockers, and making sure a four hour turn loading and unloading is done, every day, add the 3 am starts to that as well btw)

I've worked in a transport office - already explained

I've worked in a hospital as a supply technician for the wards - ordering and delivering the stock they needed to treat patients, R & D, and liasing with the ward managers, all done in a time scale and with limited freedom of action due to NHS procedures

All hard work, all stressful, with huge variations with wages paid

See?

Excellent... But you still haven't explained what it is you want us to sacrifice, for the benefit of others

[Greenmile]

You could switch the salaries and I’d still much rather be a banker than a nurse.

[Jakubclaret]

You could switch the salaries and I’d still much rather be a banker than a nurse.

The banker isn't far out with a letter switch.