Tony Bliar lecturing the British people

[Rowls]

Theresa May?

Theresa May voted to Remain but has changed her policies in line with the result of the referendum.

Do try and keep up martin_p.

[Lancasterclaret]

Only a moron would attempt to argue with Rowls, so I'm not even going to bother.

Read his post, laugh at it, double check he's being serious (it is Rowls, so he is), laugh again, shake your head and get on with your day.

[Rowls]

Read his post, laugh at it, double check he's being serious (it is Rowls, so he is), laugh again, shake your head and get on with your day.

Laugh at what exactly?

[martin_p]

Theresa May voted to Remain but has changed her policies in line with the result of the referendum.

Do try and keep up martin_p.

That's like Rovers taking on an ex-Burnley manager and expecting it to be a success!

[Rowls]

That's like Rovers taking on an ex-Burnley manager and expecting it to be a success!

Well, it isn't but it's nice to see that you're not taking this too seriously.

Which is exactly how we should take Tony Blair.

[Rowls]

Only a moron would attempt to argue with Rowls, so I'm not even going to bother.

Lancs, you haven't been "arguing" with anyone. You've just been throwing insults at Ringo.

[quoonbeatz]

As for Blair's idea that Leave voters "voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit" the exact same kind of distortion can be said about Remain voters - they voted without properly understanding the true terms of Remaining in EU.

If anyone who agrees with Blair (or to borrow the modern dim phrase, thinks what he said is a "Fact") then fine. But if you imagine that it justifies a re-vote then you are wrong.

its a fact rowls, whether you like it or not. as i said earlier, nobody knows what the terms are yet.

as terms become clear people may changed their mind either way - i know people who have on both sides.

we're leaving and thats fine, that was the decision but i for one want a good deal for our country, i don;t want us to do ourselves harm so if i don't think the terms of our exit are beneficial to the country, i'd want a say on it.

wouldn't you? or are you just not arsed about the country's future?

[Lancasterclaret]

You post makes no sense. Its like (and this isn't a compliment) listening to IDS when he answers the question asked eight years ago, in a different galaxy, in a different language.

You put what is happening right now with hard brexit on the side of a bus and see how many referendums you win.

[quoonbeatz]

It's a very, very interesting opinion. Not least because it's thick beyond belief.

If the exact terms of Brexit were available before the referendum, how exactly would that work and how exactly would it work out?

Please feel free to explain this.

It would be like trying to buy a house and telling the seller what your highest possible offer would be at the start of negotiations. Only a moron would do such a thing.

i think you probably nee to understand what a discussion is about before wading in and calling people 'thick beyond belief'.

it does you nor your argument any favours.

[Morgan]

I object to the inference that Brexiteers were/are thick, racist, little Englanders, or simply too stupid to understand what "leave" meant.
I'm old enough to have voted in the 1974 referendum when I voted "remain". I was voting for a common market - not an over-riding unelected superstate that usurps and undermines British laws, made in Britain for the British people.

As for Anthony Blair (and his erstwhile pal Gordon Brown), who did their level best to ruin this country once and for all, he ought to have the sense to keep his trap shut but his chutzpah seems to have no limit.

[RingoMcCartney]

Its not meant as a compliment or a slight Ringo, its just thats is what you do on here.

I'm surprised you haven't called Quoon "a traitor" yet

The thing is. In my view there are many on here who come over all Guardian.

I just don't bother to point it out to be honest.

[joey13]

I'm sure he will be mortified by the comments on a football messageboard.

[RingoMcCartney]

come on mate, if that photo of you in the burnley express was anything to go by, you're not that ugly.

My photo has never been in the express.

They couldn't afford the fee.

And I am !!!

[Lancasterclaret]

Like how exactly?

If you mean actually giving a **** about other people who might be negatively affected by this (ie the North!), then guilty as charged!

[Rowls]

its a fact rowls, whether you like it or not. as i said earlier, nobody knows what the terms are yet.
as terms become clear people may changed their mind either way - i know people who have on both sides.
we're leaving and thats fine, that was the decision but i for one want a good deal for our country, i don;t want us to do ourselves harm so if i don't think the terms of our exit are beneficial to the country, i'd want a say on it.
wouldn't you? or are you just not arsed about the country's future?

You're questions are mere rhetoric quoon: Do you want to answer the question and get a chocolate treat or do you want a sharp stick up your backside?

My question, on the other hand, was very sensible.

How would revealing the exact terms of Brexit before a referendum help negotiations to leave the EU?

As I said, it would be like revealing your maximum price to the seller before trying to buy a house. So I repeat: Only a moron would do such a thing.

Feel free to contradict me by answering the question.

[Rowls]

i think you probably nee to understand what a discussion is about before wading in and calling people 'thick beyond belief'.
it does you nor your argument any favours.

You can disagree with me but I have explained, in quite a bit of detail, exactly why I think Blair's argument is thick beyond belief - because the argument he applies to Leave voters applies exactly the same to Remain voters.

You can argue a point to the contrary but so far you haven't.

Go ahead. We're both exchanging barbs at one another but at least mine come with an explanation of my position and my thought processes as to how I got there.

Come on quoon, provide us your own logical reasoning to support Tony Blair's position against the British electorate.

[Bacchus]

Blair actually has a point. Yeah, I get that he's not popular, but let's try playing the ball rather than the man, eh?

Nobody knew exactly what they were voting for either way. With Remain, you had a fair idea because it was effectively maintaining the status quo. Leave could mean a thousand different things - Leavers were arguing at the time that we'd have our cake and eat it, leave the political union but stay in the single market, get rid of all the bad bits and keep all the good bits. It's impossible to argue that the 'Hard Brexit' we are getting isn't significantly different from the deal that was being sold at the time of the referendum.

Of course, it might be that a lot of people still want to leave. My personal preference was to remain, but I think too much water has gone under the bridge now to make that a viable option. Either way, the idea that people should have the opportunity to change their mind (or reaffirm their position) based on what we now know isn't worthy of the ridicule that it gets. It's ironic that those most opposed to a second referendum are those who are most insistent that Leaving is the 'Will Of The People' - if that's the case there is nothing to fear, right?

[quoonbeatz]

it wouldn't help. but thats not what we're talking about here. like i said, you need to ensure you understand what is being said before you wade in.

feel free to answer my perfectly straight up, simple, sensible questions. one if them is even a yes/no answer to keep it even simpler for you.

[Acting Claret]

I never liked him and never voted for him. How betrayed must someone feel who voted for new labour?

[quoonbeatz]

You can disagree with me but I have explained, in quite a bit of detail, exactly why I think Blair's argument is thick beyond belief - because the argument he applies to Leave voters applies exactly the same to Remain voters.

You can argue a point to the contrary but so far you haven't.

Go ahead. We're both exchanging barbs at one another but at least mine come with an explanation of my position and my thought processes as to how I got there.

Come on quoon, provide us your own logical reasoning to support Tony Blair's position against the British electorate.

rowls - read the thread.

please try and keep up.

[randomclaret2]

" nobody knew what they were voting for ". What nonsense.
There were only 2 choices. You could say the same after every election. Who voted for a Con/Lib coalition in 2010 ? Nobody. The fact that Blair has the effrontery to even make such a suggestion is a disgrace, as is the response of the " he has a point " brigade

[Rowls]

it wouldn't help. but thats not what we're talking about here. like i said, you need to ensure you understand what is being said before you wade in.
feel free to answer my perfectly straight up, simple, sensible questions. one if them is even a yes/no answer to keep it even simpler for you.

Here I am in post #41

If anyone who agrees with Blair (or to borrow the modern dim phrase, thinks what he said is a "Fact") then fine. But if you imagine that it justifies a re-vote then you are wrong.

Can Remain voters name the Presidents of the EU (without looking them up)? Can Remain voters explain in detail how the EU works? Can Remain voters explain in detail the difference between a free trade area and a trade bloc? Can the average Remain voter explain the difference between the EEC and the EU? Does the average Remain voter know the difference between the single market and a free trade area? Would they be able to explain in detail how the EU undertakes trade talks and strikes trade deals?

The answer is no.

So if you follow Blair's logic, the people need to rise up and against Blair (and the EU) in order to give a larger mandate to leave the EU. After all, the minority who voted Remain did so largely from a position of ignorance.

Here I am again in post #49

It's a very, very interesting opinion. Not least because it's thick beyond belief.
If the exact terms of Brexit were available before the referendum, how exactly would that work and how exactly would it work out?
Please feel free to explain this.
It would be like trying to buy a house and telling the seller what your highest possible offer would be at the start of negotiations. Only a moron would do such a thing.

And here I am iterating the point for you in #65

You're questions are mere rhetoric quoon: Do you want to answer the question and get a chocolate treat or do you want a sharp stick up your backside?
My question, on the other hand, was very sensible.
How would revealing the exact terms of Brexit before a referendum help negotiations to leave the EU?
As I said, it would be like revealing your maximum price to the seller before trying to buy a house. So I repeat: Only a moron would do such a thing.
Feel free to contradict me by answering the question.

And you're asking me to "keep up"?

I'm not sure you're genuinely following the thread at all. You're coming across as all rhetoric and no substance.

[Rowls]

edit - duplicate

[randomclaret2]

In response to Bacchus, how many referendums will we hold till you get the " right " answer? Presumably if that were to happen that would be the last one ?

[claretandy]

It was Tony Blair's government who deliberately created the mass immigration that substantially boosted the Leave vote. He's more responsible for the vote to Leave than most. The people simply saw what Blair had given them (mass immigration) and voted to Leave the club that allowed the mass immigration to go unchecked (the EU).

He'll be back to trying to tell us that we need to join the Euro to avoid imminent economic collapse very soon at this rate. He is pathetic and deluded.

As for Blair's idea that Leave voters "voted without knowledge of the true terms of Brexit" the exact same kind of distortion can be said about Remain voters - they voted without properly understanding the true terms of Remaining in EU.

If anyone who agrees with Blair (or to borrow the modern dim phrase, thinks what he said is a "Fact") then fine. But if you imagine that it justifies a re-vote then you are wrong.

Can Remain voters name the Presidents of the EU (without looking them up)? Can Remain voters explain in detail how the EU works? Can Remain voters explain in detail the difference between a free trade area and a trade bloc? Can the average Remain voter explain the difference between the EEC and the EU? Does the average Remain voter know the difference between the single market and a free trade area? Would they be able to explain in detail how the EU undertakes trade talks and strikes trade deals?

The answer is no.

So if you follow Blair's logic, the people need to rise up and against Blair (and the EU) in order to give a larger mandate to leave the EU. After all, the minority who voted Remain did so largely from a position of ignorance.

Of course, the truth (or "fact" if you simpleton "Facters" prefer) is that this would be a nonsense position to adopt.

The "Fact" of the matter is that all of this WAS discussed and debated. At some length. In case anyone has forgotten - That's what the referendum was. D'uh.

Both sides had the chance to debate it, and both did. Both debated from the gutter, resorting to half-truths and scare-mongering but only one side was the clear winner.

To adopt a football metaphor, Tony Blair's side lost their cup final. He's trying to demand a replay because his side played crap and lost.

Tony, it doesn't work like that, you prick.

This.

[lucs86]

There's not a chance on earth it's going to happen but theoretically what's the downside to another referendum, one where everyone's a bit wiser to what it means?

The thought of it makes Leavers furious but I don't know why, the people got it right first time by a landslide and Theresa and Boris will defo get everything we ever wanted out of negotiations. Brexit is wonderful, why would the people get it wrong on second asking?

Referendums are great, they the best way of deciding things. A second referendum might even bring Farage out of retirement for the 3rd or 4th time! Who wouldn't want to watch Farage v Blair LIVE, referendum part deux!

[Lancasterclaret]

Stop the press, we've just reached irony overload

You're coming across as all rhetoric and no substance.

Thats Rowls quote right there

[quoonbeatz]

Here I am in post #41


Here I am again in post #49


And here I am iterating the point for you in #65


And you're asking me to "keep up"?

I'm not sure you're genuinely following the thread at all. You're coming across as all rhetoric and no substance.

none of which answers the two very simple, sensible, straightforward, non-rhetorical questions i asked you.

for clarity and to keep things even simpler for you, i'll post them again here:

1. if the terms of our exit are going to be detrimental to the country, wouldn't you want a say on it? OR...

2. or are you just not bothered about any negative effects on people? is it brexit or bust for you?

question 2 is a two-parter, hope you can cope with that.

[RingoMcCartney]

There's not a chance on earth it's going to happen but theoretically what's the downside to another referendum, one where everyone's a bit wiser to what it means?

The thought of it makes Leavers furious but I don't know why, the people got it right first time by a landslide and Theresa and Boris will defo get everything we ever wanted out of negotiations. Brexit is wonderful, why would the people get it wrong on second asking?

Referendums are great, they the best way of deciding things. A second referendum might even bring Farage out of retirement for the 3rd or 4th time! Who wouldn't want to watch Farage v Blair LIVE, referendum part deux!

We had the first in 1974. To go in.

We've had a 2nd to come out.

If we have a 3rd and that's to remain, would you accept a 4th or best of 5?

You don't want democracy mate you want the okey cokey!

[claretandy]

Voting remain was not the status quo, if we would have voted remain the EU would have taken that as a mandate to double down on the things they want to do that we don't i.e EU army ect.

[dermotdermot]

Hmm. I can understand the ill feeling towards Blair for the Iraq war but some of the reaction on here borders on the hysterical. His government did a number of good things that often seem to get completely forgotten. Give me Blair over Cameron or May any day of the week thanks.

I totally agree. Many years of stable government(now sadly reversed), a vastly improved health service(now sadly reversed), improved social and public amenities and an end to the war in Northern Ireland.

If you compare all of that and more with the chaotic achievements of Cameron,well.......

[CrosspoolClarets]

This interview with Blair a couple of months ago is interesting.

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-sto ... _1_4809132

He talks some sensible talk at times, peppered with arrogance and the habit typical of consummate politicians and lawyers to never give up in trying to twist opinion until you get the outcome you want (a bit like messageboards really )

There's this line in the interview "A second referendum will be heavily disputed at present. But we should keep all options open.". So in other words don't take Leave for an answer. Imagine the uproar if we'd have voted Remain and an ex-PM tried the same trick the other way.

Here's another line "A city like London thrives in the modern world because of its open nature and its mix of people, cultures and faith."

Someone like Blair could never respect the view of someone who may decide that their own short time on this earth is better spent in a community where people have lots in common instead of an eclectic mix of religions, cultures, interests and backgrounds. Or someone who doesn't want to turn on the TV or the newspapers and it be all about things that person has nothing in common with.

In a nutshell, he epitomises perfectly why the liberal metropolitan elite and media are completely out of touch with the way many people think (not everyone, but many). I'd like to be part of a completely reformed EU, but not one that is led by people like Blair, Clegg, Cameron, Juncker or Merkel. They just see it as a new form of empire building.

[bob-the-scutter]

Hmm. I can understand the ill feeling towards Blair for the Iraq war but some of the reaction on here borders on the hysterical. His government did a number of good things that often seem to get completely forgotten. Give me Blair over Cameron or May any day of the week thanks.

I agree that some things they did have been forgotten. They were the worst government with the worse 2 prime ministers in British political history!
Destroying what was one of the best pension systems in the world, the £400 billion black hole was created by these parasites and now they`ve Stolen our old age by making us work 5 or 10 years longer. If they managed the economy correctly during the 13 years when they had the reigns, there would have been no need for the 'savage' cuts imposed by the present government, it's future generations who will be paying for their ineptitude. They destroyed the dream of thousands by sending them to University on the promise of a job, but did nothing to ensure the jobs were available once they graduated. They invented meaningless courses for students to sign up to (Even a degree in Coronation St) just to allow him to show off as to how brilliant the UK education system was under his leadersh!t even though he was making them all pay for this privilege! This also meant that we had a lot less kids going into trades and construction so we had to "Import" plumbers, decorators, carpenters and we still don`t have enough of our own tradesmen today.
The smoke & mirrors PFI schemes, saddling the public with decades of exorbitant debt, for assets that were no longer theirs?
Saturating the country with immigrants from anywhere & everywhere as a means of "Importing" votes which has had disastrous consequences to healthcare, education etc etc etc.
The illegal wars he got us into don`t even need much of a mention here as it`s well know what happened and how much this ba$tard lied to everyone.

I would have him arrested and parachuted into Mosul along with all of his murderous henchmen (Cabinet at the time) He should always be regarded as the massive dogturd that helped F`k up the world!

[timshorts]

" nobody knew what they were voting for ". What nonsense.
There were only 2 choices. You could say the same after every election. Who voted for a Con/Lib coalition in 2010 ? Nobody. The fact that Blair has the effrontery to even make such a suggestion is a disgrace, as is the response of the " he has a point " brigade

I did.

I don't trust the Tories, and I don't trust Labour. I don't trust politicians. In fact, I'd rather wake up one morning and find that the FA is running the country (as long as that doesn't include the c0ck on the Leagues committee). The best we are likely to get in this country with our undemocratic voting system is a party in power which is to some extent handcuffed from doing completely dickish things by having to run jointly with some other party (that isn't UKIP). Hence, I voted in the best way I could to get a hung parliament. Unfortunately, I am in the minority and now have a tw4t MP, part of a single party government that can pretty much do what it wants, and lo we have Brexit, an egotistic self serving personally ambitious dog of a Home Secretary and Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary. We are a laughing stock in Europe (believe me, I'm there often enough to know that's true) not only because we appear to be licking Donald Trump's brown parts, but also because 51% of our population appears to have some bizarre belief that Europe needs us more than we need them. They don't need us. They don't need to buy any of our stuff. If one of their countries needs something, they have 20+ other countries to get it from that aren't called UK. If we need something, we still have to import it.

And while we are on this sort of topic, let's say we all live in Burnley. While we are in Europe, towns like ours, Blackburn, Accrington, pretty much every Valley Town in South Wales and ex-mining town in the North East that, let's face it, aren't well off compared to pretty much anywhere else in the UK get assistance from the EU that the better off parts of the UK can't as they are too well off and don't qualify. There has been an awful lot of investment in these areas with EU money. Burnley (and the rest of these places) have been making a net gain - and a pretty substantial one over the years at the expense of the Londoners, and the majority of the South.

Now if/when we leave the EU, hands up who thinks that the Tories are going to continue this policy, giving extra money to places that won't vote for them even if Blair or Corbyn or Owen Coyle was leader of the labour party. Like f they will.

[bob-the-scutter]

Incidentally, if you hate 'Bliar' because he lied, I wouldn't examine too closely some of the promises made by 'Leave' campaign.

But if you've a nice school or a modern health centre in your bit of town, chances are it was built on his watch..

Smoke & mirrors PFI........google it and see who`s gonna have to pay for it!

[dermotdermot]

I agree that some things they did have been forgotten. They were the worst government with the worse 2 prime ministers in British political history!
Destroying what was one of the best pension systems in the world, the £400 billion black hole was created by these parasites and now they`ve Stolen our old age by making us work 5 or 10 years longer. If they managed the economy correctly during the 13 years when they had the reigns, there would have been no need for the 'savage' cuts imposed by the present government, it's future generations who will be paying for their ineptitude. They destroyed the dream of thousands by sending them to University on the promise of a job, but did nothing to ensure the jobs were available once they graduated. They invented meaningless courses for students to sign up to (Even a degree in Coronation St) just to allow him to show off as to how brilliant the UK education system was under his leadersh!t even though he was making them all pay for this privilege! This also meant that we had a lot less kids going into trades and construction so we had to "Import" plumbers, decorators, carpenters and we still don`t have enough of our own tradesmen today.
The smoke & mirrors PFI schemes, saddling the public with decades of exorbitant debt, for assets that were no longer theirs?
Saturating the country with immigrants from anywhere & everywhere as a means of "Importing" votes which has had disastrous consequences to healthcare, education etc etc etc.
The illegal wars he got us into don`t even need much of a mention here as it`s well know what happened and how much this ba$tard lied to everyone.

I would have him arrested and parachuted into Mosul along with all of his murderous henchmen (Cabinet at the time) He should always be regarded as the massive dogturd that helped F`k up the world!

This last post is to be treated with a pinch of salt. Absolute bilge.

[bob-the-scutter]

This last post is to be treated with a pinch of salt. Absolute bilge.

Oh well explained that man

[JohnMcGreal]

It's taking a hell of a presumption that people don't know what they voted for. They do.
Nobody, me included, knows whether it will be a hard Brexit or an easy one. Nobody knows what we'll lose to what we'll gain. IMO I don't believe many that voted Brexit care. We voted to get out from under the thumb of Brussels, regardless of the consequences. In time it will all even itself out, and merely having the power to choose our own economic policies and trade deals will be a boon.
There is absolutely nothing that would convince me to change my mind. That isn't being stubborn just honest.

I think everyone appreciates your honesty, Colburn_Claret. But that 'Brexit at any cost' mentality is worse than just being stubborn. It makes you seem ideological and someone who is completely unwilling to listen to reason.

[lucs86]

We had the first in 1974. To go in.

We've had a 2nd to come out.

If we have a 3rd and that's to remain, would you accept a 4th or best of 5?

You don't want democracy mate you want the okey cokey!

I reckon we make the second one a two-parter, I think it would get great ratings and tie it up nicely!

You can't get more democracy than in a referendum, more referendums = more democracy!

[bob-the-scutter]

We are certainly not the last to leave. And yes, Europe does need us more than we need it, they`ve now lost one of their largest contributors.

[CrosspoolClarets]

That's all well and good timshorts, but it is our money not the EU's money, it just goes temporarily into their pot.

When I was skiing 2 weeks ago I was taxied back to the airport by a Latvian, who was telling me what a disaster it was when the Soviets fell, and everyone lost their savings overnight, then how wonderful it is to be in the EU that spends loads of money on them. He is terrified about their security, sharing a border with Russia.

In short, Burnley get new town centre paving, Latvia gets new roads and airports along with beefed up security and a seat in Brussels. If they need us so much (which this guy was adamant that they do) why on earth is the UK a net contributor? What right have the Latvians got for their standard of living to be raised to match ours? That should be an earned benefit from decades of graft, not a right in itself. That the EU budget is now in meltdown due to us leaving shows just how unfair it is.

Blair hasn't even begun to address what the chances ever are if we remain of changing that situation where we are just a cash cow for Brussels. Because they are zero.

[JohnMcGreal]

Europe does need us more than we need it

So, people are still trying to convince themselves of this, I see...

[Spijed]

What's wrong with having a vote based on what Teresa May gets after the two year time frame?

Remember one thing, once these deals have been negotiated and signed they CANNOT be reversed.

So if we leave the EU on less favourable terms we are pretty much stuck with them for a few decades!

[Lancasterclaret]

Weapons grade *********** now infesting this thread.

[CrosspoolClarets]

We are certainly not the last to leave. And yes, Europe does need us more than we need it, they`ve now lost one of their largest contributors.

Absolutely spot on. See my above post about the Latvians.

They need our money, our security, our world influence. Not Europe per se, but many of the countries in it. We, however, definitely do not need them. We'll be a touch poorer at worst, whereas other countries could be far more affected.

All we ever wanted was an EU that reflected that need instead of wilfully ignored it.

[JohnMcGreal]

Absolutely spot on. See my above post about the Latvians.

They need our money, our security, our world influence. Not Europe per se, but many of the countries in it. We, however, definitely do not need them. We'll be a touch poorer at worst, whereas other countries could be far more affected.

All we ever wanted was an EU that reflected that need instead of wilfully ignored it.

Is this supposed to be satire? I can no longer tell.

[Man of Kent]

The only place where that odious, repugnant, rapacious war criminal should be standing up and speaking from is in the dock in The Hague, as the defendant!

[Spiral]

Interesting article on the 'constitutional handbrake', a term I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming months and years.

https://www.bindmans.com/news/withdrawal-bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have a read but the TL;DR is that, in the opinions of leading EU law experts, final withdrawal requires an Act of Parliament to be passed. A referendum on the terms of secession seems a possibility.

[Lancasterclaret]

Amazing just how many right wingers think Blair is now a war criminal.

Uncanny in fact

[claretandy]

What's wrong with having a vote based on what Teresa May gets after the two year time frame?

Remember one thing, once these deals have been negotiated and signed they CANNOT be reversed.

So if we leave the EU on less favourable terms we are pretty much stuck with them for a few decades!

what incentive is there for Europe to negotiate a good deal for us if it is put to a vote ?