A Second Sweaty Referendum

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:11 pm

ablueclaret wrote:We don't like Europe, the Scots understandably don't like us.

I like Europe.
It's full of vibrant city's. Wonderful, different cultures and great food.
Thats one of the reasons I dislike the E.U so much

Deardeary · Post by **Deardeary** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:14 pm

"Racist chunts on here . my last day as a Scottish claret "
Think you"ll find it's a Scot who's asking for another referendum to break up the union and not anyone on here. Any proposal for a referendum is born of anti-English rhetoric, but we're supposed to roll over and take it, anything else would be wrong wouldn't it?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:19 pm

So we've got the poisoned dwarf determined to break us all up and we're the racists?

Am I missing something here?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:23 pm

I grew up in Wales and there was a similar undercurrent then, if you were English you got punched at various times etc.
I could prove I was born in Ireland and my surname isn't English either so I was pretty safe.

The Taffs would love to break away too in some areas and probably for similar reasons to the Scots.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:24 pm

The comment wasn't aimed at you, Hampstead.

But read through this thread and tell me that there aren't some narrow minded, ignorant views being a posted about Scotland and it's inhabitants. If they are being made by people who voted for Brexit, so be it.

I stand by my comment.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:36 pm

We lived in Scotland in the late 1970s when they had oil and a fishing industry and Aberdeen was a boom town.
Now they've nothing except handouts from us .
The EU aren't interested in another lame duck country ,the have enough already

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:49 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:The comment wasn't aimed at you, Hampstead.

But read through this thread and tell me that there aren't some narrow minded, ignorant views being a posted about Scotland and it's inhabitants. If they are being made by people who voted for Brexit, so be it.

I stand by my comment.

It probably wouldn't take long to find some more comment's from the Scots in a similar vein.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:53 pm

Not aimed at you Hampstead, aimed squarely at the blatant anti-scots feeling on the thread.

For the record, I don't agree with the Scottish referendum timing, because its a blatant attempt to make Brexit blow up in our faces even more than it has done already, and it will mean nothing will get done to help Scotland (which is the main reason I'm against the referendum) as its govt will be too busy convincing the population that having their own passports and waving a flag is more important than any pesky, irrelevent financial details, the sort that experts might point out......

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:54 pm

And Sidney, no offence, but thats the argument used by all the right wing nutjobs on twitter to justify posting that islam must be wiped out because Ahmed from Bradford has posted that he doesn't like white folk much.

Do you really think that "hatred" is the right word here? I don't

atlantalad · Post by **atlantalad** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:19 pm

I am getting used to these referendums now. Can we just adopt a best of 3 wins? Saves the debate about populous misunderstanding the original question in /out.

Eeeny, meeny, miney, mo.
Put the baby on the po.
When she's done,
Wipe ......
Eeeny, meeny, miney, mo.

Oh flippin Nora - need another referendum cause I have 2 to 1 and it ain't the answer i wanted.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:22 pm

SalisburyClaret wrote:Mrs SturgeonFace promised the last referendum would be a once in a generation

Given the life expectancy up there it's probably been about a generation by now hasn't it?

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:23 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:So if the EU doesn't let them join, why will they be f*cked? If they don't join the 'European gravy train' they'll be free to 'make their own way in the world', which is a good thing, right?

When the Westminster and Brussels hand-outs dry up, what will they use for money? Scotch mist?

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:25 pm

Spaceman wrote:Racist chunts on here . my last day as a Scottish claret .

Why's that, are you moving south?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:And Sidney, no offence, but thats the argument used by all the right wing nutjobs on twitter to justify posting that islam must be wiped out because Ahmed from Bradford has posted that he doesn't like white folk much.

Do you really think that "hatred" is the right word here? I don't

I was just passing comment, considering we're being accused of racism etc etc.

I'm not overly arsed if Scotland decide to go solo, I think it could seriously explode in the poisoned Dwarf's face.

People talk about the Brexit vote and the lack of genuine information handed out by both sides but I think Sturgeon will be just as bad with her lack of information in regards to the cons of Scotland going it alone.

If she manages to drag you away from us then I hope someone locks the door behind her on the way out.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:30 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:It's good to see that the narrow-minded ignorance and casual bigotry which led us to Brexit is still alive and strong on this thread. You're all consistent, if nothing else.

Yet another stupid post from Mr McGreal; It's the Scots who will be voting to leave us, not us voting to ditch them so it's nothing like Brexit at all. If there's any racism going on it's the Scots, not the Auld Enemy.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:33 pm

I think Scotland should have another independence referendum but with England, Wales and Northern. Ireland joining the vote.

They've stirred a lot of animosity up and I think they'd get a boost from the English.

Let the English regions have the Barnett Formula millions redistributed !

I, for one, am sick to death of the tartan tail wagging the English dog.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:39 pm

Be careful Ringo, or you will be called a racist as well.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:44 pm

OK. It's politics. Scottish National Party wants independence for Scotland. They are doing "what it says on the tin."

United Kingdom is better as England, Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland, but it's only better if all parts freely choose to see themselves as a part.

For reasons I can't explain, Scotland has always had a greater number of MPs in Westminster than was justified by equal constituency numbers. For a long time these additional MPs were Labour. When Tony Blair granted Scotland 2nd devolution referendum in Sept 1997 it may be that the Labour gov't was happy to maintain the number of Scottish MPs in Westminster.

The Barnett formula for funding Scotland always gave more money per capita to Scotland than was available to other parts of the UK.

It's arguable that England, away from the better off areas in the South East, experiences a sense of unfairness in the "bigger slice" that Scotland receives - and yet the SNP appears to dismiss, ungraciously - more so, when the Scots parade "Braveheart" and denigrate the English and the Union.

Difficult question: as a democrat I was happy that Scotland had their referendum in 2014; then UK had a referendum in 2016. Should the 2016 result annul the earlier result, so that 2014 needs to be repeated? In 2016 we voted as UK, Theresa May is perfectly within her rights as PM to reject SNP petition for a IndyRef2.

Maybe TM could offer Scotland a second referendum in 2024 - 5 years after Brexit has been implemented. Maybe a side agreement could be discussed with the EU as part of the Brexit negotiations - will you accept Scotland to return to EU membership if Scotland votes to leave the UK?

In the meantime, the London parliament should take steps to re-unite the whole country. Westminster should be vacated for the renovations. Parliament could re-locate to "the northern powerhouse" - which is reasonably central within the UK - for a full 5 year term. MPs should start to re-connect with the country they are supposed to represent - rather than live in the "Westminster bubble."

Getting closer to the people may help the Scottish to know that they are a valued and equal part of the UK - just as the North West and the North East of England (and the other regions) should also feel equally valued and have the opportunity to be equally prosperous as the South East.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:47 pm

If Scotland remains ,England should have its own parliament based in the Midlands.

We should have the same level of representation as the Scots. They have 2 bites of the cherry. England is the only nation without its own parliament.

The Scottish have a totally disproportionate influence on UK politics.

Sturgeon says that when the UK votes to separate from the EU it's "isolationism"

Yet when wee krankie wants to separate from the UK, its"independence"

Vote for Scottish independence and banish the anglophobic tartan mafia from our politics forever!

Everybody's happpy

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:If Scotland remains ,England should have its own parliament based in the Midlands.

We should have the same level of representation as the Scots. They have 2 bites of the cherry. England is the only nation without its own parliament.

The Scottish have a totally disproportionate influence on UK politics.

Sturgeon says that when the UK votes to separate from the EU it's "isolationism"

Yet when wee krankie wants to separate from the UK, its"independence"

Vote for Scottish independence and banish the anglophobic tartan mafia from our politics forever!

Everybody's happpy

I get the sentiment, but don't you think we are already paying for too many politicians?

Agree, the irony of the arguments are delightful.

I'm also thrilled by all the left wing politicians getting so excited about the need for trade and successful business when they speak about Brexit - but otherwise want the exact opposite...

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:06 pm

Sidney1st wrote:So we've got the poisoned dwarf determined to break us all up and we're the racists?

Am I missing something here?

Just about everything possible to miss.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:13 pm

I visited New Zealand and my abiding thought while standing in amongst all of the houses in Christchurch without central heating was that they have been turned over by their big rival Australia with many of their young skilled workers jumping ship and the country being far poorer as a result.

That is one of the most treacherous sea channels in the world between those countries, whereas we are separated by some grass and a crumbling 2,000 year old wall.

If England manages to make a go of it, and Scotland loses its young people (and some businesses) as they move south, that would be like taking a wrecking ball to the Scot's budget. They would be worse than Greece. Surely more would move south than north? I simply don't see the sense in this particular referendum. At least Brexit was arguable each way economically. Luckily, the Scots aren't daft, definately not with money.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:15 pm

I know.....

....Chewbacca should have been portrayed with ginger hair/fur!

And a kilt. Chewing on a fried Mars bar.

Cirrus_Minor · Post by **Cirrus_Minor** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:19 pm

How amazing that the single issue party in Scotland have decided they want another vote. They will probably get one and this Tory government could see Britian out of Europe and split on their watch. You really couldn't make it up could you?

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:19 pm

Sidney1st wrote:The world will be more dangerous if we get rid of the Scots and/or Irish?

If we let Ireland unify, then the stupid morons in the IRA will have to take up a different past time to planning attacks on the English.

If we let Scotland go, then we haven't got to listen to them whinging anymore in the media or Parliament and they can bugger off back north of the border.

You are obviously a seriously bigoted mistake of a human being. So much bile and ignorance...and you make a great case for Scotland and Ireland to get shot of Little England. I blame the Empire and thatcherwoman. Both have warped the English mindset.

hampsteadclaret · Post by **hampsteadclaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:21 pm

The Lords have passed the Brexit Bill.

Asyouwear · Post by **Asyouwear** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:25 pm

Since she's so against dragging people out against their will, I presume she'll recognise the rights of the borders to rejoin England if it goes like last time? Or does she just spout stuff that suits her when it suits her? Thought so.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:40 pm

IanMcL wrote:You are obviously a seriously bigoted mistake of a human being. So much bile and ignorance...and you make a great case for Scotland and Ireland to get shot of Little England. I blame the Empire and thatcherwoman. Both have warped the English mindset.

Nah my parents told me I was a planned birth.

You've clearly got no sense of humour in regards to this chat then?

What's warped the Scots then?

Why am I ignorant then?
If you could let me know, I'll then check with my mum in Ayrshire and check to see if you're right.
In regards to Ireland, I'll ask the in-laws who live over there if I've missed anything out about the IRA.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:43 pm

Given the votes in the Lords and parliament

The BBC will , tomorrow, be broadcasting sombre music...

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:08 pm

IanMcL wrote:You are obviously a seriously bigoted mistake of a human being. So much bile and ignorance...and you make a great case for Scotland and Ireland to get shot of Little England. I blame the Empire and thatcherwoman. Both have warped the English mindset.

You come across as being nothing but a bigoted mistake of a Scotsman, but I suppose that's PC because you aren't English. Btw, the cross border kerfuffle has been going on long before Margaret Thatcher and there is probably more hatred North of the Border than South of it. If you must blame something, and being Scottish you obviously must, blame the shenanigans before, during and after Colluden.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:50 pm

The SNP have made a right pigs ear of every thing they have touched up here. Education, Health, Police, Fire Service, Various policy bloopers like the named persons scheme.

They have only come to power as a protest vote due to Tony Bliar and his excursion into Iraq. There is more pro union support than not however it's split up over 3 main parties, where as the pro Indy has one party to vote for.

The screw is turning on Sturgeon as a lot of her supporters are slowly starting to see that she is all fur coat and no knickers. She is running out of things to deflect onto Westminster, Indy2 is her last desperate attempt. It will fail and she is very aware of this, the timing coincides with local council elections due in May and attempting to disrupt Brexit.

The economy up here cannot cope without rUK support, with an aging population, higher than average welfare percentage and a slower paced housing market. Just imagine if holyrood then had to come up with funding a new armed forces, forging relations, new currency, setting up the various departments in order to run a country.

Personally I believe May will grant a section 30 but only on the condition it's on an agreed date after Brexit has been completed. Effectively this would kill the vote stone dead.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:58 am

You can't have your caviar and eat it, Sturgeon. It's like Scotland's run by a dinner lady (scary thought!)

If the Brexit vote had happened before the Scottish independence vote... Hmmm. Let's just build the wall again and get the Scots to pay for it. Let Trump sort it out.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:43 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:Mrs SturgeonFace promised the last referendum would be a once in a generation one - she now wants to publicly break her promise on the basis of the result of a completely unconnected referendum

Mrs May isn't going to give her a second chance

If you have even the slightest idea of what you're talking about you'd know that she's keeping a manifesto promise by calling a second referendum. But you have your dumb narrative and i'm sure you'll stick to it no matter what.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:45 am

If she loses this one has got a date pencilled in for a 3rd?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:56 am

Sidney1st wrote:If she loses this one has got a date pencilled in for a 3rd?

You know that "point" is bullshit, right? joking aside, you have to know that don't you?

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:02 am

It does seem a bit daft to call another referendum based on not wanting to leave the EU, particulaly seen as the EU will not take an independent Scotland on due to :
1) Not wanting a handout nation and
2) The Spanish already promising to veto any application from Scotland due to their own worries with Catalunya

Exactly what will Sturgeon offer in the referendum?

Leave the UK and be refused membership of the EU or remain in the U.K. and leave the EU.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:03 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:You know that "point" is bullshit, right? joking aside, you have to know that don't you?

So you don't think she'd have another one if she loses the 2nd one?

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:08 am

If she lost a second I guess she wouldn't be able to pursue another one because her position would become untenable.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:16 am

Sidney1st wrote:So you don't think she'd have another one if she loses the 2nd one?

No.

Would you prefer she broke a manifesto promise, because that's what she'd be doing by not calling a second referendum? The Scottish electorate put her in power base on a manifesto that included the promise to hold a 2nd referendum if there was a "material change" in circumstances, and as an example the manifesto specifically said that the UK voting to leave the EU against Scotland's will would be an example of a material change.

So before you continue to mock her consider whether or not you want politicians to keep to their manifesto promises. By all means continue to mock this 2nd IndyRef, but at least then both know how tenuous your principles are when it comes to political promises.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:20 am

Darthlaw wrote:It does seem a bit daft to call another referendum based on not wanting to leave the EU, particulaly seen as the EU will not take an independent Scotland on due to :
1) Not wanting a handout nation and
2) The Spanish already promising to veto any application from Scotland due to their own worries with Catalunya

Exactly what will Sturgeon offer in the referendum?

Leave the UK and be refused membership of the EU or remain in the U.K. and leave the EU.

Well since a large carrot waved in Scotland's direction to get them to vote 'No' last time was continued EU membership, i suspect those who only voted to stay in the UK because EU membership outside the UK wasn't guarenteed (or even likely) might decide that since Scotland will be out anyway then what reason would they have to stay in the UK?

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:27 am

She certainly has a clear mandate to pursue a second referendum - I'm not sure what the rationale could be for disputing that - and therefore one should take place. It's going to get messy though one way or another.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:45 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:No.

Would you prefer she broke a manifesto promise, because that's what she'd be doing by not calling a second referendum? The Scottish electorate put her in power base on a manifesto that included the promise to hold a 2nd referendum if there was a "material change" in circumstances, and as an example the manifesto specifically said that the UK voting to leave the EU against Scotland's will would be an example of a material change.

So before you continue to mock her consider whether or not you want politicians to keep to their manifesto promises. By all means continue to mock this 2nd IndyRef, but at least then both know how tenuous your principles are when it comes to political promises.

We shall see what happens then.
If it was part of her manifesto then fair enough.

I do remember a large number of people whining that we've had a referendum to leave the EU despite it being a Tory pledge to hold one.

I remember saying after the SNP didn't get the result they wanted after the first referendum that there would be another.
I also suspect there would be a 3rd if they lose a 2nd time.

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:52 am

Sidney1st wrote:The world will be more dangerous if we get rid of the Scots and/or Irish?

If we let Ireland unify, then the stupid morons in the IRA will have to take up a different past time to planning attacks on the English.

If we let Scotland go, then we haven't got to listen to them whinging anymore in the media or Parliament and they can bugger off back north of the border.

Too be honest Sid not sure if we would want the north back again as if we had a vote in the morning I don't think it would be positive , well here in the South anyway .

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:56 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:I visited New Zealand and my abiding thought while standing in amongst all of the houses in Christchurch without central heating was that they have been turned over by their big rival Australia with many of their young skilled workers jumping ship and the country being far poorer as a result.

That is one of the most treacherous sea channels in the world between those countries, whereas we are separated by some grass and a crumbling 2,000 year old wall.

If England manages to make a go of it, and Scotland loses its young people (and some businesses) as they move south, that would be like taking a wrecking ball to the Scot's budget. They would be worse than Greece. Surely more would move south than north? I simply don't see the sense in this particular referendum. At least Brexit was arguable each way economically. Luckily, the Scots aren't daft, definately not with money.

For the chance of freedom it would be worth it trust me .

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:36 am

My father was Welsh my mother Scottish an English grandfather, a Flemish grandmother and an Irish wife, It taught me a lot about tolerance and bigotry.
The hugely sad thing is that the EU's main function was its political one, providing an umbrella organisation under which discussion between nations took place with candour but also a degree of friendship. Yes Britain never truly participated and yes the rest of Europe was very forgiving of our behaviour, but we will lose from being outside this important organisation, not financially perhaps but in terms of our standing in the world, once again a little island at the edge of things but this time with no Empire at our feet, a small voice of little consequence and a continent possibly collapsing in on itself.
For the nationalists amongst us obviously a joyous moment but for those of us who value co-operation and see the major problems in the world as requiring it, we are heading in the opposite direction to the needs of the world and its people, change brings fear, fear brings hate, we have seen it all before.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:38 am

There was no option for the First Minister. SNP manifesto guaranteed a referendum, should there be a material change. Exit from the EU when the entire nation voted to stay in Europe, is that change. The vote must take place while the UK is still in, so that a clear path for Scotland to remain is established with Europe. EU may use Scotland and promise a good outcome, to upset English negotiators.

Scotland, Ireland and Wales have been left out by England. What other options do they have than to kick back? It could be the best outcome for all the Home Countries. A foot in each camp.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:46 am

Left out of what?
There was a nationwide referendum to leave the EU and the decision was made.

Just because you don't like the decision you want to go it alone?
Fine, off you trot.

However it could take a decade before Scotland can join the EU.
To join Nato you'll need to provide a standing army, something you've got the troops for, but can the country afford to maintain them?

Couple that with the debts you'll be handed if you leave the UK and its going to be interesting to see what happens.

Northern Ireland could unite with EIRE so they'd have it easier then Scotland, certainly in the short term, possibly in the long term, but that depends on many things.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:53 am

The Scottish unlike the Welsh have never felt over-awed by the English. it is sad they see their future separate from us but understandable.
May started this whole process by stating nothing would be started until the wishes of the provinces had been met, instead she has ridden rough-shod over them. It is this disdain which angers the Scots and makes them determined to separate themselves from the English bullies.
The splitting up of the U.K. as a consequence of Brexit is a delicious irony if also a very sad one. Everyone now wants their own slice of the action, rather than togetherness and co-operation this is the age of fragmentation and division, sadly the Churchills and Atlees of the world are vanquished, only Blair Brown Heseltine and Clarke remain to remind us why the EU is so important, sadly the generation that gained most from this and should have protected its structures became infested with fear over racial purity and their dislike of foreigners. The young largely ignorant of the terrors of war on the European continent were the ones who showed wisdom by backing remain, hopefully a new generation will grow up less troubled by identity of race or culture and re-ignite the internationalism in this country rather than the parochial exploitative stance we have now.
Truly this is the time of the little Englisher, although Johnson has enlarged that role somewhat.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:55 am

"To join Nato you'll need to provide a standing army, something you've got the troops for, but can the country afford to maintain them?"

and these will be the troops that didn't even get a vote in the last independence referendum. Brexit gave the vote to UK expats who had lived abroad for less than 10 (or 15?) years. The last scottish referendum was only open to those who had lived in Scotland for the last 3 years.

So how many Scots on here could actually vote ? Mrs Hatfield is Ayrshire born and bred but can't vote as she's been in England for 25 years (god, it does feel longer sometimes ! so fair enough there. Bit there are tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of Scots who won't get the vote.

I don't see a strong enough argument to deny a 2nd referendum if they want it. But negotiate after they trigger it as that seems to be the way these days.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:56 am

ABC

I don't think she said that "nothing would be started until the wishes of the provinces would be met". Did she ?