Fox hunting. Is it coming back?

[boyyanno]

Let's be honest, the sort of Hunting we are talking about is nothing to do with controlling the Fox population. It's for sport and pleasure only. I have no doubt that farmers still hunt foxes that plight their land, this I can deal with.

Hunting animals for a hobby is where it becomes wrong for me, most hunting has slowly been made illegal or put under restrictions to make them more humane etc. I see no need to bring this back.

[ElectroClaret]

No. It isn't.

[Wile E Coyote]

Stick you little outrage up your bottom, wile.

Foxes are vermin.

I don't care for them and neither do I care for hunting them.

Go cry yourself silly over a rat or a cockroach or something.

There are million priorities ahead of fox hunting including things like animal welfare for important animals like livestock.

Sod stinking dirty foxes.

just because you dont give a toss rowls, doesn't mean a thing. You sound like a real callous individual with no feelings. thankfully you are in a minority.

[Rowls]

So you're saying Conservative MPs vote against their better moral judgement to please an influential, vocal minority? Sounds like a good reason not to vote for the Conservative Party, then.

You're being deliberately obtuse now.

Faced with a subject about which very few of them actually care about and which has no implications to real life, they vote the way their vocal fringe, and constituents wants them to.

I'm already sick to death of this pointless debate as I was back in the 90s when an MP visiting my 6th form claimed that "banning fox hunting" was his number 1 priority in life. Maybe he was telling the truth?

The pillock in question was Mike O'Brien who was Immigration Minister in Blair's first cabinet. He went on to dismantle immigration controls just as the numbers of people entering the country were exploding. Whether they were entering legally or illegally didn't matter; it became impossible to tell after he'd finished dismantling border controls.

But heck! Massive numbers of fraudulent asylum seekers? Immigration running out of control? Dismantled the system that actually counts immigration? Who cares as long as some shoddy legislation making it *slightly* more difficult for rich people to hunt foxes can clog up Parliament for years?

If your "number 1 priority" is stinking foxes I'm sure little things like immigration (or Brexit, or housing, of the deficit, or funding the NHS, or the national debt, or foreign policy, or trade, or taxation levels....) aren't so much of a problem.

It's all about the foxes.

[Rowls]

For fox sake.

[If it be your will]

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[keith1879]

This is a massive waste of Parliamentary time. Just like it was when Blair put the needless, pointless ban in force in the first place.

Any political party who pledged to abstain from the debate and concentrate on their constituents needs instead would win points from me.

Sadly, it's become a stupid political football. We have Tony Blair to thank for this upcoming waste of Parliamentary time.

Labour will appeal to fluffy metro-lefties by promising to protect their stinking foxes. The Conservatives are doing nothing other than ensuring their countryside support remember to turn out.

It's all a sodding waste of time.

Foxes. I mean. Bloody foxes.

Absolutely - a waste of time to introduce the ban and a waste of time to repeal it. As if there aren't real problems all over the world , this country and probably within 50 yards of parliament that we AREN'T addressing.

[Rowls]

just because you dont give a toss rowls, doesn't mean a thing. You sound like a real callous individual with no feelings. thankfully you are in a minority.

It means I don't give a toss. That means what it means.

Foxes are vermin. They need controlling. Dressing up in silly clothes and poncing around the countryside is, as far as I can gather and as other people have put it, just as effective at controlling foxes (ie. killing them) as other methods.

So why should I give a toss?

Do you think this equates to not caring about animal welfare? What a stupid, tendentious position to take if you're daft enough.

I've given my opinion above. There are plenty of things about a billion times more important. Politics is a matter of life and death and concerns our very welfare. Putting a fox to the head of the queue in your priorities is to put a fox -a stinking fox- ahead of a low earner paying too much tax, a pensioner, a child, a nurse etc etc.

When the country is perfect and we all live lives are unrelenting happiness I shall happily consider the needs of the fox till the cows come home.

How did you get on with the cockroaches and the rats by the way? Have you launched a campaign to ban rat poison or to save cockroaches? Or aren't these particular vermin cuddly enough to care about?

[Wile E Coyote]

yes, but this post is entitled FOX HUNTING, IS IT COMING BACK

[keith1879]

The sad thing about fox hunting is that they pretend they are doing country folk a service by killing vermin when in fact they breed them in coverts to give them their sport.
Indeed a barbaric pastime which can only warp the minds of those who pursue it. The conservative Party in flight.

Frighteningly I find myself agreeing with both Rowls and ablueclaret in the same thread. Going for a bit of a lie down.

[Rowls]

Then why, for crying out loud, have you made eight contributions to this thread - more than anyone else?? Just stop clicking on the fox hunting thread for goodness sake!

Jeez. You are that thick.

Because I care that Parliamentary time isn't wasted on frigging foxes.

This is the last time I shall bother responding unless you show a marked increase in comprehension. Sadly, you as you don't appear to be understanding what is being said.

All the best.

[Woodleyclaret]

It never went away just got more organised

[Imploding Turtle]

Jeez. You are that thick.

Because I care that Parliamentary time isn't wasted on frigging foxes.

This is the last time I shall bother responding unless you show a marked increase in comprehension. Sadly, you as you don't appear to be understanding what is being said.

All the best.

Ten.

[If it be your will]

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[Sidney1st]

Have we had an infestation of foxes since the ban that would warrant having the ban over turned?

If we haven't then its a waste of parliamentary time.

[conyoviejo]

Have we had an infestation of foxes since the ban that would warrant having the ban over turned?

If we haven't then its a waste of parliamentary time.

Only whenever we played Leicester..

[dsr]

The only polling group that have have a significant majority in favour of fox hunting are Conservative voters: 44% opposing the ban; 35% in favour.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/01/09/br ... nting-ban/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/d ... ebsite.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect you might be wrong there, because I reckon rural Labour supporters might be opposed to the ban. Unfortunately your survey is too small to be useful on that, surveying only 190 rural dwellers in total, which is presumably why they didn't print it.

[Imploding Turtle]

I suspect you might be wrong there, because I reckon rural Labour supporters might be opposed to the ban. Unfortunately your survey is too small to be useful on that, surveying only 190 rural dwellers in total, which is presumably why they didn't print it.

I wasn't aware that "rural Labour" was a group on an opinion poll. Every day's a school day.

[dsr]

I wasn't aware that "rural Labour" was a group on an opinion poll. Every day's a school day.

I'm sure you could have worked it out.

[If it be your will]

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[Cirrus_Minor]

Interesting that foxes are being labelled as vermin so makes you wonder why then was the Red Fox was introduced into countries such as the United States and Australia. Maybe it is to extend the 'pleasure' of hunting into these countries. This is the pleasure of getting appropriately dressed, mounting horses and following a pack of specially trained dogs to watch a live fox being ripped to pieces.

This is the same pleasure that you could enjoy from badger/bear baiting, hare coursing, bull fighting, etc. It is the enjoyment of watching an animal die in agony and glorying in it.

The fact that some are advocating the return of fox hunting speaks volumes.

[If it be your will]

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[Jakubclaret]

********, your dismissal of a barbaric and disgusting toff pastime is repulsive.
Any right thinking, well balanced individual would be revolted by this activity, okay, its not Brexit, not our economic survival, but to reintroduce this, suggests we are warped as a society. what **** ******* would take part in killing foxes?

I agree. I'm walking in the countryside all the time dusk & dawn it's only very rare odd times I see them fleetingly at the best of times. I don't think there are that many rural foxes causing that many problems urban foxes in cities maybe but if people managed there bins & litter better they'd be no attraction. I think some warped people get there rocks off on hunting poor defenceless animals when there really isn't a need. Fair enough with badger culling there was a argument with the TB but even that was contentious & some people put forward good arguments regarding vaccines.

[dsr]

Interesting that foxes are being labelled as vermin so makes you wonder why then was the Red Fox was introduced into countries such as the United States and Australia. Maybe it is to extend the 'pleasure' of hunting into these countries. This is the pleasure of getting appropriately dressed, mounting horses and following a pack of specially trained dogs to watch a live fox being ripped to pieces.

This is the same pleasure that you could enjoy from badger/bear baiting, hare coursing, bull fighting, etc. It is the enjoyment of watching an animal die in agony and glorying in it.

The fact that some are advocating the return of fox hunting speaks volumes.

The riders follow the hounds, they don't lead them. It's very rare that anyone but the huntsman sees (or saw) the fox being killed. As for what they enjoy, I suspect it's the riding and the social side of it. If all they wanted was to see gory death, they could get that with a ferret and a few rats.

[Jakubclaret]

The riders follow the hounds, they don't lead them. It's very rare that anyone but the huntsman sees (or saw) the fox being killed. As for what they enjoy, I suspect it's the riding and the social side of it. If all they wanted was to see gory death, they could get that with a ferret and a few rats.

I think some are reluctant to call them off when the hounds are in full cry chasing the fox till it's exhausted must be distressing for the fox. There's some good videos on YouTube of some of there devious activities there certainly keep the sabs very fit into outfoxing them pardon the pun.

[dsr]

It might be worth looking at the killing of mice and rats, too. Current practice is to feed them slow-acting poison, with two benefits: one, that the parent rodents will take the poison home to feed to their babies, so the babies die as well; two, because the poison is slow acting, they have plenty of time to go back to their nests and die conveniently out of sight. Unlike the fox hunters, we townies prefer vermin deaths to keep the blood out of sight.

[Rowls]

I'm sorry Rowls, but you are definitely wrong on this. I've been doing some research, and it turns out this is very much a Conservative issue. Interestingly, whether you live in the town, countryside or fringe doesn't make much difference to people's opinion on this. Also, social class appears to make no difference to your opinions on fox hunting. Age, gender, and region also make little difference. The only polling group that have have a significant majority in favour of fox hunting are Conservative voters: 44% opposing the ban; 35% in favour. To say this is a fringe issue among Conservatives simply isn't true, and it is therefore no surprise that 83% of Conservative MPs voted against the ban in 2004, and are now agitating for another vote to repeal it.

And as to your repeated opinion that it warrants no parliamentary time, I agree with you. The ban should remain in place.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/01/09/br ... nting-ban/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/d ... ebsite.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As if to prove my point.

None of this proves that the issue is not important for the vast majority of Conservative activists. It isn't. It's important only to a minority. The poll you quote doesn't say whether they think it's important; only on which side of the debate they fall.

The only thing you've truly managed to demonstrate your lack of understanding.

If you want to attempt to disprove me you'd need to find a poll of Conservative activists ranking how important they felt particular issues were. I can promise you that fox hunting will come waaaaaay down the list for the vast majority but be an important issue only for a vocal minority.

That is my final word on the matter and I probably shall not bother to engage you again.

[If it be your will]

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[Rowls]

It might be worth looking at the killing of mice and rats, too. Current practice is to feed them slow-acting poison, with two benefits: one, that the parent rodents will take the poison home to feed to their babies, so the babies die as well; two, because the poison is slow acting, they have plenty of time to go back to their nests and die conveniently out of sight. Unlike the fox hunters, we townies prefer vermin deaths to keep the blood out of sight.

Slow acting poison is a nightmare because rats have a tendency to snuff it under floor boards and kick up an almighty foul smelling miasma for weeks on end as their filthy carcasses go rotten.

Far better to purchase a strong air rifle and shoot the bast*rds whenever feasible. Far more humane for the dirty rats and there's an element of fun to it too. It also negates the risks of pets consuming poison which is a very distressing thing to happen.

Poisoning should be a last resort.

[Rowls]

You said that last time but you came back to me, after calling me thick.

You did notice in the data that nearly half those Conservative voters that were opposed, registered their feeling as "Strongly Oppose".

...

[If it be your will]

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[Martinc265]

If it did, which it won't, you would see an increase in fox numbers. Before the ban the large estates and hunt land protected the fox population by ensuring gamekeepers did not cull them and during hard times left food out. This ensured that when lord or lady whatisname held the hunt on their land they had something for the hounds to chase and therefore the horses could follow. Since the ban a lot of these estates are culling and drastically reducing fox numbers. Lifting the ban will see them increase in the countryside. Friends of mine have a farm of 250 acres in the middle of a large, extremely large estate and hunt land in Yorkshire. Before the ban you saw lots of foxes on his land all the time now you can go months without seeing a single one. He is a happy man.

[Right_winger]

There are some right ignorant sensitive souls on here.

[starting_11]

No it's not coming back.

I personally couldn't care less about foxy woxy or those who use it's argument as some kind of class warfare tool.

The fact that they're bringing up a contentious non-issue which may put off borderline or first time Tory voters is just plain stupid though.

[Corky]

If it did, which it won't, you would see an increase in fox numbers. Before the ban the large estates and hunt land protected the fox population by ensuring gamekeepers did not cull them and during hard times left food out. This ensured that when lord or lady whatisname held the hunt on their land they had something for the hounds to chase and therefore the horses could follow. Since the ban a lot of these estates are culling and drastically reducing fox numbers. Lifting the ban will see them increase in the countryside. Friends of mine have a farm of 250 acres in the middle of a large, extremely large estate and hunt land in Yorkshire. Before the ban you saw lots of foxes on his land all the time now you can go months without seeing a single one. He is a happy man.

I'm not surprised your farmer friend doesn't see many foxes anymore as I think they have all moved to the top of my road. So many urban foxes now it is unbelievable.

[Rowls]

On a slightly related note, here's a good example of what wild animals are actually like. This is what happens when I nice, middle class family imagine that wild animals are actually quite like Disney cartoons who spend their time singing songs and wouldn't it be nice to feed them? - the creature tries to eat their daughter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-c ... underwater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Foxes are no better. They'd eat your baby given half a chance. That's nothing against them - they're only trying to survive. But so much of the anti-hunting argument is based on giving these wild, vicious animals parity with humans.

It's just like that perpetually recurring newspaper story 'Squirrel Attacks Toddler'.

We should distinguish between people and animals. We're human. They're not.

[Spijed]

When people give Warfarin to rats I wonder if the rats then get their INR checked to see if it's in range?

[kentonclaret]

Plenty of time for a U-turn if the policy proves unpopular with voters.

[If it be your will]

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[IanMcL]

Tories kill foxes.

[dsr]

Tories kill foxes.

Of course they do. So do Labour supporters, and even some Liberals. OK, there are more people get sloppy sentimental over foxes than there are over rats and mice, but by no means everybody - I bet you'll find a Labour supporter with chickens is more than willing to see a fox die. Even if it is in the modern method of gassing the cubs rather than the traditional method of killed by hounds.

[IanMcL]

Tories kill foxes for sport.

[Cirrus_Minor]

Of course they do. So do Labour supporters, and even some Liberals. OK, there are more people get sloppy sentimental over foxes than there are over rats and mice, but by no means everybody - I bet you'll find a Labour supporter with chickens is more than willing to see a fox die. Even if it is in the modern method of gassing the cubs rather than the traditional method of killed by hounds.

If people have a problems with rats or mice they usually set a trap or two then retire for the night. They will inspect the trap(s) thereafter to see if the pest(s) have been killed, quietly disposing of the body if it is caught.

The tradition with foxes is really a pageant of dressing up, with full regalia, to witness the 'sport' of seeing a pack of hounds ripping a fox to pieces. Anybody who find this 'sport' as enjoyable really has got more than one screw loose and needs urgent psychiatric treatment. I don't really care who they vote for but I think the point is the encumbent prime minister, who happens to be the leader of the Consevative party, has indicated that she will try to bring this 'sport' back.

I repeat, speaks volumes.

[Rowls]

Tories kill foxes for sport.

Which gets to the nub of the problem. For lefties it isn't really about "animal welfare" - it's about stopping rich people indulging in a hobby that is only open to a very select few.

That's the problem with fox hunting. If it were simply a means of controlling a pest then there'd be no argument about it. Unfortunately it is (apparently) so exhilarating that people compare it to taking drugs. This kinda makes sense to me (although I've done neither) because hunting is a primordial and natural instinct for humans.

I've collected fruit and foraged for mushrooms and found these Darwinian experiences harking back to our hunter-gatherer inheritance to be the most peaceful and rewarding activities I've ever undertaken. I have no doubt that hunting would give the same pleasure but magnified manifold by the adrenaline that hunting horseback in a pack would provide. Doing so on horseback gives us - mankind, that is - the edge over nature.

Unlike the po-faced IanMcL response above I see no problem in people enjoying hunting. It's natural for people to enjoy hunting. It was the favourite pass time of virtually EVERY sodding kind this country has ever had. Probably for a good reason. In my eyes, you may as well try to outlaw people enjoying sex or outlaw people being gay. You're not going to stop them because it's something we're designed to enjoy. The current law has rather proved this - it hasn't stopped hunting at all.

Yes, I think we've got to the nub of the problem here. The people in favour of banning hunting want to try to ban people from enjoying hunting "for sport".

I have no issue with this. As long as they are not unnecessarily cruel (and remember, there is no evidence to suggest this is any worse a method for a fox to die than shooting or poisoning) then I have no problem with them enjoying their sport.

In fact, I think it is particularly spiteful and envious to want to ban something simply because others enjoy it.

But more than that, I still think it's a waste of time.

[Rowls]

If people have a problems with rats or mice they usually set a trap or two then retire for the night. They will inspect the trap(s) thereafter to see if the pest(s) have been killed, quietly disposing of the body if it is caught.
The tradition with foxes is really a pageant of dressing up, with full regalia, to witness the 'sport' of seeing a pack of hounds ripping a fox to pieces. Anybody who find this 'sport' as enjoyable really has got more than one screw loose and needs urgent psychiatric treatment. I don't really care who they vote for but I think the point is the encumbent prime minister, who happens to be the leader of the Consevative party, has indicated that she will try to bring this 'sport' back.
I repeat, speaks volumes.

The idea that you could set a trap for a fox or that you think that traps actually kills rats (they don't, they have to be killed afterwards) speaks volumes.

Your main "problem" with fox hunting appears to be sartorial. Are you writing satire or genuinely trying to engage the debate?

[dsr]

If people have a problems with rats or mice they usually set a trap or two then retire for the night. They will inspect the trap(s) thereafter to see if the pest(s) have been killed, quietly disposing of the body if it is caught.

The tradition with foxes is really a pageant of dressing up, with full regalia, to witness the 'sport' of seeing a pack of hounds ripping a fox to pieces. Anybody who find this 'sport' as enjoyable really has got more than one screw loose and needs urgent psychiatric treatment. I don't really care who they vote for but I think the point is the encumbent prime minister, who happens to be the leader of the Consevative party, has indicated that she will try to bring this 'sport' back.

I repeat, speaks volumes.

No, I know from experience that when people (ie. me) have mice in the house, they ring the council who put this slow acting poison down which the mice eat and which they feed to their babies, after which they all slowly die. Hard, I know, but my conscience isn't dtrong enough to find a more humane method. I don't like dead boodies anyway, and certainly don't want to have to kill them face to face.

In fox hunting, the procession goes fox, then hounds and huntsman, then field master, then field. Few of the field are ever near enough the fox to see it killed. The hunt would be more efficient without the field, but they're just along for the ride, and they're the ones paying for the whole thing, so they have to come. And the hounds know how to kill - they bite the back of its neck. Post mortems have proved it. Ripping apart the body afterwards does not hurt a dead fox.

[Lancasterclaret]

Who knew that dsr would be a fan of fox hunting? He's normally so left wing.

[dermotdermot]

Not so long ago I noticed a large fox carrying something a cross my front lawn. On investigation I found the said fox at the top of a stairwell at the side of my house. On seeing me, he fled back down the stairs towards me and jumped over a fence to my right, leaving it's 'cargo' at the top of the stairwell. This turned out to be a rather plump squirrel. Of course it was dead, but not just dead. It had no head. The fox had eaten the head in its entirety.

Looking into this, I discovered that a fox will have a particular liking for eating the heads and faces of other species. This is why you have incidents of foxes creeping into houses and attacking tiny babies. They won't attempt to eat them whole, just bite a chunk out of their face.

Forensic science is also somewhat hampered by the fox. A missing body will become unrecognisable after a very short time, not by decomposition, but by the simple fact that the fox has found it first and..... well need I go further?

Such lovely little creatures.

[AndrewJB]

Why can't May leave the issue alone? Why does she persist with this ideological crusade in the face of 80% public opposition? Not on a wind up but a real question.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Why can't May leave the issue alone? Why does she persist with this ideological crusade in the face of 80% public opposition? Not on a wind up but a real question.

I guess she has to please the donors.