A good Brexit deal is still the biggest issue.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:38 pm

claretandy wrote:Remainers are the22% now, not48%.

No they're not. You're mistaking people who just want to get on with leaving as actually supporting leaving.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:41 pm

If Remainers are now the 22% not 48% then Leavers must be 78%?

Some Diane Abbott maths going on here.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:41 pm

There was a great thread on twitter highlighting David Davis and his comments on Brexit and the deal with the EU over the last twelve months.

Its gone from "same deal as now" to "no deal" in stages.

Its amazing what you can glean from stuff if you actually listen/record what they say.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:42 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:its not really about the leaders, to be fair. its more about davies than may and starmer than corbyn.

which is a good thing on both counts.

i'd certainly back starmer and co than davies and co to get a better result for the country as whole.

Having studied him in so much detail that you can't even spell his name...

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:48 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:I haven't time to read all the manifestos - can someone tell me which party has promised to build a wall?

Cheers

None.

But I believe the safety of the People is #1 priority.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:49 pm

The police investigation may not affect the number of people who actually turn out to vote for him, but it appears he's been a total fool, and this could have serious repercussions for him.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:55 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:None.

But I believe the safety of the People is #1 priority.

And what do you believe should be done to protect the people?

Who gets your vote to do it?

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:58 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:there isn't going to be a good brexit deal, its purely a damage limitation exercise.

Spot on. A lot of people don't want to hear it, but we've already got the best deal possible.

Voting for May and Davies wouldn't be damage limitation. It would be damage maximisation. They seem to be preparing the country for a scenario where there is no deal, and that would be an absolute disaster on so many levels.

PIE · Post by **PIE** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Pstotto wrote:66% of Burnley voted for Brexit. They now have to follow that up, on Thursday with the same vote i.e. Tory. We can't have Corbyn and Diane Abbot in charge of this nation. Abbot and Costello would do a better job.

Agree with this, but it's looking like there's a real chance that a growing majority of leave voters are going to now vote for a party and a leader to sink us further into the unknown. What a mess. Only a few months ago the Labour party was on it's knees with Corbyn struggling to look anything like a leader and/or capable of uniting his party with seemingly the majority wanting him to stand down. The whole party has been an embarrassment to British politics for years, but some how, at the most crucial time for the UK, he's gaining support for all the wrong reasons.

Conservative all the way, but have a growing worry that Theresa May has really dropped the country in it.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:27 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:And what do you believe should be done to protect the people?

Who gets your vote to do it?

I believe that given Tories and Labour have failed on terrorism. Voting for either of them is more of the same. More of the same hasn't worked. So all I can do is vote for a party that offers an alternative.

So at this election I'll vote for ukip. I've voted for the others in the past.

God forbid that another atrocity occurs, my conscience will be clear......

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:33 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:So at this election I'll vote for ukip. I've voted for the others in the past.

BNP?

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:34 pm

thatdberight wrote:Having studied him in so much detail that you can't even spell his name...

good spot!

in fairness, i'm more interested in what he says than now his name is spelled.

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:37 pm

Let's hope Labour get I'm them and Diane Abbott can do the negotiating for us.

Bound to get a good deal after she's baffled them with bullshit

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:46 pm

There was a good article in (possibly) the FT about how expectations have gradually been managed from cherrypicking the best parts of the 4 freedoms down to no deal isn't necessarily a bad thing, made interesting reading.

Anyway, given the recent focus on security and terrorism I'm surprised more thought hasn't been given to what happens to all of the various EU wide security and intelligence sharing agreements if we went with "No deal". The cessation of all of those is surely going to leave us terribly vulnerable.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:53 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:BNP?

No.

I'm a former member of the Labour party.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:54 pm

Why don't we just send a letter to the EU stating:

We are withdrawing from the EU on 1st Jan 2018
We will cease payments into the EU on that date
All outstanding EU projects in the UK will be completed and paid for by UK taxpayers
We will take back control of our borders on that date
We will initially not impose any tariffs on goods entering the UK from that date
We will begin negotiations on all other outstanding issues from that date

There. It wasn't so difficult was it.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:54 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:No.

I'm a former member of the Labour party.

Holding the views that you do, did they kick you out?

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:56 pm

Mala591 wrote:Why don't we just send a letter to the EU stating:

We are withdrawing from the EU on 1st Jan 2018
We will cease payments into the EU on that date
All outstanding EU projects in the UK will be completed and paid for by UK taxpayers
We will take back control of our borders on that date
We will initially not impose any tariffs on goods entering the UK from that date
We will begin negotiations on all other outstanding issues from that date

There. It wasn't so difficult was it.

Except we're already starting negotiations next week, so you'd be wasting 6 months.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:56 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Holding the views that you do, did they kick you out?

Michael Foot was leader. It's a long time ago.

I was young and idealistic!

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:58 pm

You've obviously had a very bad last 30 years or so to turn you this bitter. What went wrong for you?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:10 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:You've obviously had a very bad last 30 years or so to turn you this bitter. What went wrong for you?

At the age of 20, if you're not a socialist, you have no heart.

At the age of 40, if you're not conservative, you have no brain.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:22 pm

I'm the anti-ringo!

wandering slightly more and more to the left over the years

Rammy1968 · Post by **Rammy1968** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:22 pm

Ha ha lots of brain dead people out there then Ringo

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:23 pm

I wonder if Ringo keeps quoting that thinking that Churchill said it. It seems curious that he keeps quoting Europeans.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:24 pm

Most normal people have a brain AND a heart Ringo

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:25 pm

Mala591 wrote:Don't forget we will always possess the trump card when negotiating.

They sell us £270 billion worth of goods/services annually.

Which averages out at £10bn per country

Mala591 wrote:We sell them £230 billion worth of goods/services annually.

Which averages out at..erm.. £230bn per country

Mala591 wrote:If they want to put 10% tariff on our exports to the EU then we do the same to their imports into the uk.

We can't lose really can we.

Only if you ignore the massive disparity in size between the two negotiating parties.

I can't believe people still think like this.

Edit - nil-d beat me to it. I should really read to the end of threads before commenting.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:27 pm

dsr wrote:We already export more to countries outside the EU than to countries inside; most of it without any sort of trade agreement. Now, we're free to carry on exporting to those countries as we do now, but we can also make trade agreements to mutually improve the terms.

And you believe a negotiating party representing c60m people will have more clout than one representing c500m people (or "consumers")?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:32 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:I happen to think conversation over the issues, rather than the childish 'I want this, or else' approach is by far the best way we'll get a good deal. Who would you be more inclined to deal with, a reasonable person with whom you could iron out finer details, or Veruca Salt?

Of course the best deal was to stay in the EU, but that's been taken out of our hands now.

Last post for me on this for now but THIS ^^^^

Labour will be able to negotiate a far better deal imo because the Tories seem to be treating the whole thing like a zero sum game (or a football match, if you will) where one side "wins" and the other "loses". At least Corbyn and co seem to recognise that both parties can potentially agree a deal which minimises the economic damage on both sides.

It's not like haggling for a price in some street market.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm the anti-ringo!

wandering slightly more and more to the left over the years

That's just badly fitting shoes lancs!

mikeS · Post by **mikeS** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:37 pm

Well end up with the best deal we can get. It won't be the deal that we want. There's no way 27 member states of the EU will sign off on a deal that gives the U.K. The same rights and benefits as they enjoy with the same conditions.
Well come to an arrangement in the end as it's in the Europeans interests to continue working with Britain. Two years of negotiating will leave both sides totally exhausted I would think.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:12 pm

Our exit from the EU (I refuse to use the buzzword) is important, but not half as important as the welfare of everyone living in this country.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:25 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Our exit from the EU (I refuse to use the buzzword) is important, but not half as important as the welfare of everyone living in this country.

You should send that quote to Labour campaign headquarters. it's so true.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:35 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:You should send that quote to Labour campaign headquarters. it's so true.

Thanks.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:38 pm

Greenmile wrote:And you believe a negotiating party representing c60m people will have more clout than one representing c500m people (or "consumers")?

The problem the negotiators representing 500m people had was that they were negotiating on behalf of 28 distinct groups. All EU treaties had to get the agreement of 20 nations; any UK deal will need the agreement of only 2.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:46 pm

dsr wrote:The problem the negotiators representing 500m people had was that they were negotiating on behalf of 28 distinct groups. All EU treaties had to get the agreement of 20 nations; any UK deal will need the agreement of only 2.

Can you clarify what you mean by that. Which 2?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:52 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Can you clarify what you mean by that. Which 2?

If Britain wants a deal with the USA, it needs only the agreement of Britain and the USA. The EU attempt to get a deal with thew USA needed the agreement of 28 EU countries plus the USA.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:56 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Our exit from the EU (I refuse to use the buzzword) is important, but not half as important as the welfare of everyone living in this country.

Surely the welfare of everyone living in this country is very much dependent on a successful exit from the EU?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:57 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Our exit from the EU (I refuse to use the buzzword) is important, but not half as important as the welfare of everyone living in this country.

Further up this thread I said the number 1 priority of any government should be to protect its People. For me both the Tories and Labour are not up to the job.

Weve seen islamic terrorist atrocities on both their watches. May as home Secretary was lousy. And Corbyn has previous when it comes to terrorism and not voting for anti terror legislation many a time.

If the People are not safe, then brexit, the economy and the welfare state are irrelevant.

The next government has to be , tough on terrorism and tough on the causes of terrorism.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:08 pm

dsr wrote:If Britain wants a deal with the USA, it needs only the agreement of Britain and the USA. The EU attempt to get a deal with thew USA needed the agreement of 28 EU countries plus the USA.

That's what I thought you mean't, but therein lies the complexity of trying to negotiate our exit and achieve an advantageous outcome.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:10 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:That's what I thought you mean't, but therein lies the complexity of trying to negotiate our exit and achieve an advantageous outcome.

Exactly. I've said since the day of the vote that there's virtually no chance of getting any sort of agreement with the 27. I think we'll be on World Trade Organisation tariffs in both directions.

grapidianclaret · Post by **grapidianclaret** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Any deal will be good and bad for both sides. Its going to take a crap load of compromise on both sides. Parts of the economy will be worse of and parts the same or maybe a little better. Same in Europe. Anybody who believes Britain is going to come out of this in a far better all round position has their head up Boris Johnsons A**e.
Why would Europe make leaving the EU an attractive proposition. Britain will have to suffer in the negotiations somewhat.
After its done and dusted, that is when the leaders of Great Britain will sink or swim on how they move Britain forwards.
I personally believe that , as in everything, the Tories main concern will be the banks and big business, and Labors will be more concerned with some of the people, a little lower down the totem pole.
Not wanting an argument, its what me and my political leanings believe.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:05 pm

May has reshuffled her Brexit negotiating team

: IMG_20170606_230307.jpg (332.39 KiB) Viewed 2297 times

Good luck Jean-Claude

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:36 am

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:42 am

But do we really need it? For example, cars - that's the one that people keep banging on about. We buy about 2 million cars per year in this country, but produce only 1.5 million. That's a net import of half a million cars - but if the EU really does get punitive and makes importing EU cars ridiculously expensive, then we'll be able to produce more in this country instead. In fact, VW and Audi would be setting up factories here to get round the problem.

There's very little of the imports that we must have and couldn't get elsewhere; and even that that we can't get elsewhere, given time we can produce it ourselves.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:20 am

Damo wrote:May has reshuffled her Brexit negotiating team
IMG_20170606_230307.jpg
Good luck Jean-Claude

I expected to see Noel Edmonds in that line-up.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:56 am

In the forthcoming EU negotiations the other side holds all of the cards. Whilst we might export £230 billion pounds of goods and services to the EU as a trading bloc the introduction of punitive tariffs would be felt by us far greater as a single trading nation. Politicians glibly talk about trading under WTO rules without telling the electorate that the import of dairy products, for example, would be subject to tariffs of around 33%.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:04 am

kentonclaret wrote:In the forthcoming EU negotiations the other side holds all of the cards. Whilst we might export £230 billion pounds of goods and services to the EU as a trading bloc the introduction of punitive tariffs would be felt by us far greater as a single trading nation. Politicians glibly talk about trading under WTO rules without telling the electorate that the import of dairy products, for example, would be subject to tariffs of around 33%.

But before we can even trade on the more expensive WTO terms, we'd actually have to apply to become a member of the WTO on our own. I believe we are currently WTO members under the EU umbrella, so to speak.

It's certainly not as simple as David Davies is making it out to be.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:09 am

As always DSR, just put the actual WTO tariffs on here before you try to convince anyone that its actually not that bad.

Please, you are not David Davis or Theresa May so you lose nothing by doing it.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:05 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:But before we can even trade on the more expensive WTO terms, we'd actually have to apply to become a member of the WTO on our own. I believe we are currently WTO members under the EU umbrella, so to speak.

It's certainly not as simple as David Davies is making it out to be.

All 28 EU members are members of the WTO in their own right, but negotiate as a bloc.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:08 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:As always DSR, just put the actual WTO tariffs on here before you try to convince anyone that its actually not that bad.

Please, you are not David Davis or Theresa May so you lose nothing by doing it.

I don't know what they are. But there is plenty of spare farmland that could be put back into use to make up the shortfall, and food prices have dropped so much recently that there's a bit of slack there. Food is one of the areas where I would expect prices to rise.

But the reason the UK has to import dairy products is that the EU has a quota system, and the UK's share of the quota isn't enough for the UK's needs. When we leave the EU, we lose that quota and can produce as much milk as we want.

New Zealand butter isn't subsidised, and costs the same as Danish. If Danish butter prices rise by one third, then we can buy more from New Zealand.