Soft Brexit defeated

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:33 pm

I know that, she took over the reins from Alex.

I do pay attention to it, I've family who live in Scotland.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:37 pm

"Ah, so Brexit must be enacted because a majority voted for it, but a majority voting for Corbyn (twice) to be leader should be ignored because some other people said so.

When are these double-standards going to end?

So a referendum of all the people is the same as 1/2m party members voting?

The fact that so few people get a chance to pick our prime minister is a real problem, especially if that person ( Commy Corbyn) hates this country and all that it stands for.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:40 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Its gonna be bad on whatever terms we leave on but you small minded Billy Britain numskulls who are scared of your own shadow are pushing for complete disaster whilst the majority of us now want at the very least to do a damage limitation exercise

Oooohhhhhh.

In the face of very stiff competition this is possibly the most mixed metaphor ever presented on UTC.

You say it's the people who are most scared who are pushing for the scary thing, yeah?

Are these scared people also masochistic?

Would love to read an expanded explanation of this metaphor.

Sincerely,

Lord William Britain (AKA Billy Britain)

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:41 pm

Everyone knows it was tory's who voted Corbyn to be Labour leader. £3 for the privilege

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:52 pm

Damo wrote:Everyone knows it was tory's who voted Corbyn to be Labour leader. £3 for the privilege

Then you shouldn't have a problem providing sources that support your assertion that Tories got Corbyn elected both times.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:58 pm

summitclaret wrote:
So a referendum of all the people is the same as 1/2m party members voting?

The fact that so few people get a chance to pick our prime minister is a real problem, especially if that person ( Commy Corbyn) hates this country and all that it stands for.

If you want to have a say in who leads the Labour Party then join the Labour Party.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:In what way are we being raped and pillaged by the EU?

Like I said, you dont understand the basics.

You really need to educate yourself.

We pay 350 million a week to the EU and get 150 million back.

Its not hard to understand

whereeaglesfly · Post by **whereeaglesfly** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:47 pm

The Rightards on here I fear will eventually have to eat humble pie when the true cost of an hard brexit hits home. I read only last week that some 2,000 companies in Europe are already making contingency plans to change their supply chains to other Euro countries so as to avoid paying more for the goods they need once tariffs with the UK come into force. They don't care about us and profit will motivate their actions. I fear there will be many hidden consequences of our decision but perhaps I am just part of project fear. Would that be the 350 million promised to the NHS?

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:51 pm

If I had a soft brexit I'd send it back.
I like my brexits crisp and fresh.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:59 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Really grates on me the soft and hard brexit. No such thing.
We voted to regain control of our laws and borders.

That means we cannot have access to the single market with out paying for it in some way.

I really struggle with people who did not understand that. Its pretty simple.

If that's true then the Americans pay to have access, and the Chinese, and the Indians.
What a load of ********. We'll trade with them on the same playing field as the test of the world. What's wrong with that.
If they try to be punitive for having the audacity to leave, well it's a blade that can cut both ways.

In the year since we voted to leave nothing has changed, other than we're 12 months closer to being free.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:05 pm

I love this desire to be "free" means you can ignore everything else.

We are going to take an economic hit.

Thank god Burnley is an area with massive employment, high living standards and zero EU funding......oh

Bacchus · Post by **Bacchus** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:11 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Like I said, you dont understand the basics.

You really need to educate yourself.

We pay 350 million a week to the EU and get 150 million back.

Its not hard to understand

It's exactly that straight forward, isn't it. We give the EU some money, they give us a bit less back. No nuances, no associated benefits, no political or cultural considerations, no economic concerns brought about by restricting the freedoms of movement. We just tell every business in the UK to stop buying and selling from Europe and start buying and selling elsewhere instead. It's really so simple I just don't get why all these economists and business leaders don't understand it as well as you do.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:18 pm

Rowls wrote:Oooohhhhhh.

In the face of very stiff competition this is possibly the most mixed metaphor ever presented on UTC.

You say it's the people who are most scared who are pushing for the scary thing, yeah?

You'll have to help me out with this scary thing metaphor im supposed to have used. I can only assume you mean Brexit which I called disastrous not scary.

You really are a dummy and apologies to the people interested in continuing this debate for risking bringing this moron back into the discussion

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Then you shouldn't have a problem providing sources that support your assertion that Tories got Corbyn elected both times.

I voted for him in the first one. £3. Price of a cheap pint to show what a shambles their system was.

If my one vote made the difference I would be seriously hacked off my myself at the moment.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:26 pm

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:29 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It has been SNP policy to push for independence long before Sturgeon became First Minister.

Absolutely. However, the referendum which brought her to power was, according to Salmond, 'a once in a lifetime event' until they lost it. Now Sturgeon is pushing for a second one because all she wants is a legacy no matter how disastrous it is for the inbreds north of the border. And it will be.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:34 pm

I'm not sure that the desire for independence is any different from whatever desires those who voted "Leave" have if we are being fair.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:43 pm

Bacchus wrote:It's exactly that straight forward, isn't it. We give the EU some money, they give us a bit less back. No nuances, no associated benefits, no political or cultural considerations, no economic concerns brought about by restricting the freedoms of movement. We just tell every business in the UK to stop buying and selling from Europe and start buying and selling elsewhere instead. It's really so simple I just don't get why all these economists and business leaders don't understand it as well as you do.

not sure what you mean.
my company buy goods frim every corner of the world and sell them in the EU with no tariffs. Not sure what the tariffs would apply to but it seems all thin air to me.
Stop paying the robbing bastards £200 million a week an d spend it on us.

The EU ate just bleeding us dry, why cause they hate the brits

We need to stand together and we will be successful.
we have loads of skills that are wanted worldwide.

we can succeed

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:43 pm

Bacchus wrote:It's exactly that straight forward, isn't it. We give the EU some money, they give us a bit less back. No nuances, no associated benefits, no political or cultural considerations, no economic concerns brought about by restricting the freedoms of movement. We just tell every business in the UK to stop buying and selling from Europe and start buying and selling elsewhere instead. It's really so simple I just don't get why all these economists and business leaders don't understand it as well as you do.

not sure what you mean.
my company buy goods frim every corner of the world and sell them in the EU with no tariffs. Not sure what the tariffs would apply to but it seems all thin air to me.
Stop paying the robbing bastards £200 million a week an d spend it on us.

The EU ate just bleeding us dry, why cause they hate the brits

We need to stand together and we will be successful.
we have loads of skills that are wanted worldwide.

we can succeed

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Your company pays tariffs to trade with the rest of the world?

No, because of trade deals with us as part of the EU.

or yes, but then you'll have those tariffs to trade with EU, because they will be WTO tariffs

It doesn't pay tariffs to trade with the EU at the moment.

I'm sure that we will have an agreement at some stage, but only if people realise that we've left, and now its about making sure we don't blow both our feet off, rather than just one.

Stop this stupid, unnecessary and frankly moronic talk like Farage does, and make sure that the economy doesn't take a big hit with a transitional deal to give everybody time to re adjust budgets and long term planning.

Don't make it worse than it needs to be.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I love this desire to be "free" means you can ignore everything else.

We are going to take an economic hit.

Thank god Burnley is an area with massive employment, high living standards and zero EU funding......oh

So by your own assertion, this EU thing isn't really working for Burnley is it?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:56 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Then you shouldn't have a problem providing sources that support your assertion that Tories got Corbyn elected both times.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/07/e ... ck-corbyn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:58 pm

No Tory Britain isnt working for Burnley but fortunately for Burnley the EU gives us some back. Any money the Tories save coming out of the EU wont becoming Burnleys way

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:01 pm

What he said

Come on Damo, you are brighter than that!

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:08 pm

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:11 pm

It's quite simple really. If leaving the EU bites like all of you experts claim it will, we will naturally be forced to manufacture goods as opposed to importing them. Labour in the UK will become a good economic alternative to importing goods from a superior economy over the water. If manufacturing becomes viable again, where do you think people will choose to manufacture? Places like Burnley with lots of people used to low wages, cheap land etc or places like London where it's impossible to accept a job unless it pays enough to afford 2k a month rent for a bedsit? They can stick their fancy bus stations and round abouts up their arses as far as I'm concerned

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:12 pm

If it be your will wrote:I can't believe I've been suckered again! Right, next time If it be your will, when Damo provides a link supposedly providing evidence to prove his point - it won't, it'll just be another waste of 5 minutes of your time, like it always is.

Wrong account Charlie haha

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:16 pm

Just like that?

Manufacturing?

From what?

5% of the current workforce being employed in manufacturing?

Hell, it sounds great.

Are we aiming to be what? A Germany? A South Korea? A Bangladesh? a what?

You need to put some meat on the bones of that, or it just sounds like a 1970s Union bosses wet dream.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:20 pm

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:39 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:I can't possibly understand why anyone would want to stop those from Ulster coming to Britain for terminations, even for free. The holier than thou brigade in NI should be ashamed of themselves.

It's very easy to understand, Hatfield. You don't have to agree, but you shouldn't find it difficult to understand why anti-abortionists feel like we do.

We feel that every abortion causes the death of an innocent human being. We don't want innocent human beings to die. It's that simple.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:44 pm

Corbyn and the left have always wanted a hard Brexit, because it allows them to re-nationalise, their big problem is that they have not factored in the huge costs of Brexit which will impact on their anti-austerity programme, neither will they actively engage in new trade deals, in fact it will be a very bad place for them to be with an inexperienced and pretty dim shadow cabinet.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:45 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just like that?

Manufacturing?

From what?

5% of the current workforce being employed in manufacturing?

Hell, it sounds great.

Are we aiming to be what? A Germany? A South Korea? A Bangladesh? a what?

You need to put some meat on the bones of that, or it just sounds like a 1970s Union bosses wet dream.

Yeah I'm sorry. I forgot that Burnley was such a hotbed for cival servants and government employees.
Makes you wonder why, in your own words, unemployment and low living standards is so rife in the area.
And your really backing my argument when you talk of manufacturing in Germany and South Korea.
Thanks, I didn't realise we were on the same side

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:46 pm

It takes two to produce a child there is an argument that it should take two to make that decision, an argument which is largely ignored, and of course the voice of the most important party isn't heard at all. It's not a clear cut issue.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:47 pm

If it be your will wrote:It's times like this I just cannot believe I was on the same side as you in the referendum! I mean, what on earth is this simplistic nonsense and pointless aggression all about? Was it really this sort of thing that won us the referendum?

Possibly. And probably the sort of thing that lost you the general election

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:52 pm

Germany and South Korea have had seventy years of investing in their manufacturing, high end manufacturing. In everything, the equipment, the infrastructure, the training, the markets. Have we? In certain sectors yes, but enough to reinvent our whole economy?

We are good, don't get me wrong but are we at that level? And able to expand to that level? Under a Conservative govt?

That pushing reality into the bounds of us winning the European Cup!

And we can't go down the road of low end manufacturing, cos we can't compete (thankfully) with the third and second world because of our much higher costs.

I want industry and jobs to flow into our old industrial heartlands just like you, but I don't believe your vision is achievable the way we are going with the EU.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:01 pm

That's fine. I just don't see what the EU is doing for towns like ours in it's current state.
They have done nothing but move industry abroad for 40 years. And what do we get back really?
The South East is like a different country in economic terms. There's nothing the EU has to offer that will give northern towns like ours even the slightest glimmer of hope of ever getting parity with the rest of the country while we are a member

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:03 pm

It seems really simple those who voted leave (majority) got their wish. Now we try to get on with it to provide stability to all things british they want to make a soft brexit ie pussy foot about getting out. Make your bleeding minds up.
The nation said get out so lets get on with it.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:08 pm

I don't see how you think a Hard Brexit Conservative govt will make it better.

At best, they will pour money into regions that vote for them that happen to be near Burnley.

I guess we will see. But hell, everything I know about this suggest its going to end badly, and those that voted for this are going to suffer the most.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:16 pm

Damo wrote:It's quite simple really. If leaving the EU bites like all of you experts claim it will, we will naturally be forced to manufacture goods as opposed to importing them. Labour in the UK will become a good economic alternative to importing goods from a superior economy over the water. If manufacturing becomes viable again, where do you think people will choose to manufacture? Places like Burnley with lots of people used to low wages, cheap land etc or places like London where it's impossible to accept a job unless it pays enough to afford 2k a month rent for a bedsit? They can stick their fancy bus stations and round abouts up their arses as far as I'm concerned

Where would the raw materials be coming from?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:18 pm

The current "business model" in the UK is, start small somewhere where local councils offer start up incentives. Labour is cheap and rents are low. Expand enough to sell in the EU trading bloc then look towards the non EU super states. Once business growth allows, move your business to a EU or non EU country that provides even cheaper Labour and lower base costs whilst keeping your UK and EU custom with extremely low export rates. It's been going on for far too long and local people suffer as a consequence. Local business has been transformed from a place of prosperity where people spend money in their local shops to pound shops and empty shops because of the lack of jobs and the pay that go with it. There's few places in the country worse off because of the EU than Burnley

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:18 pm

It is 100% accepted that people voted to "take back control" in the referendum - Boris was like a pair of chattering teeth saying it.

Everything else is open to interpretation, e.g. Extent to which people voted to cut migration

Politicians thus need to make that happen as a red line - everything else is debatable.

That means laws, borders (including fisheries), international trade. All must be in our control.

As long as that happens, that's fair. Anything else, such as keeping migration high to cushion an economic shock, is fair too.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:20 pm

aggi wrote:Where would the raw materials be coming from?

Not from China hopefully

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:21 pm

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Your company pays tariffs to trade with the rest of the world?

No, because of trade deals with us as part of the EU.

or yes, but then you'll have those tariffs to trade with EU, because they will be WTO tariffs

It doesn't pay tariffs to trade with the EU at the moment.

I'm sure that we will have an agreement at some stage, but only if people realise that we've left, and now its about making sure we don't blow both our feet off, rather than just one.

Stop this stupid, unnecessary and frankly moronic talk like Farage does, and make sure that the economy doesn't take a big hit with a transitional deal to give everybody time to re adjust budgets and long term planning.

Don't make it worse than it needs to be.

Why is it Lancs, that you can only see us losing out and that tariffs are one sided. Even if you were right, it would mean that the EU would have to pay tariffs to trade with us. Considering the amount of European cars, wine, electrical goods they sell here, it would do them just as much harm as us. That being the case a deal that suits all is the only outcome. Our trade with Europe will barely stutter imo, I just can't understand the logic of your panic.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:36 pm

Colburn, I'm yet to be convinced that that is what is wanted by the Conservatives.

The election result proved that people had lots of questions of TM, and one of them was her vision of Brexit.

I'm sure now that if its possible, we will have a deal that suits us up to a point (but crucially not as good as the one we have now) but two things are the problem which is why I'm pessimistic.

1) The timescale - just not possible in the remaining 1 1/2 years to sort this out.

2) The right wing of the Conservative party

The danger of a cliff edge drop off is all too real.

I'm still dead against leaving, and will campaign to my dying day to convince people that we need to be in, but if we are leaving, then those two points are the ones that give me the most concern.

Anyway, knackered and off to bed!

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:37 pm

I've heard quite a few people talk about us going back to making things, as though it will be the easiest thing in the world. Given the government we have I can't see that happening. Seventy five percent of our railways are owned by other countries governments. When they looked at building a new nuclear power station they had to go to China and France. There is no way you'll see public investment from this government to kickstart industry. They're looking after the bankers.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Colburn, I'm yet to be convinced that that is what is wanted by the Conservatives.

The election result proved that people had lots of questions of TM, and one of them was her vision of Brexit.

I'm sure now that if its possible, we will have a deal that suits us up to a point (but crucially not as good as the one we have now) but two things are the problem which is why I'm pessimistic.

1) The timescale - just not possible in the remaining 1 1/2 years to sort this out.

2) The right wing of the Conservative party

The danger of a cliff edge drop off is all too real.

I'm still dead against leaving, and will campaign to my dying day to convince people that we need to be in, but if we are leaving, then those two points are the ones that give me the most concern.

Anyway, knackered and off to bed!

I appreciate where you're coming from. I'll agree to disagree. You can even give me an I told you so, if proved right.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:46 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I've heard quite a few people talk about us going back to making things, as though it will be the easiest thing in the world. Given the government we have I can't see that happening. Seventy five percent of our railways are owned by other countries governments. When they looked at building a new nuclear power station they had to go to China and France. There is no way you'll see public investment from this government to kickstart industry. They're looking after the bankers.

We become the land of opportunity overnight. There is money to be made there for the right entrepreneurs.
One mans loss is another man's gain.

I'm beginning to think the only difference between remainers and Brexit-eers isn't our view of the EU, but wether we have a positive or a negative outlook on life.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:54 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:They did vote to stay. They also elected the SNP to power in Scotland last year with the manifesto promise of another independence referendum if Scotland was being taken out of the EU against its will. I'm getting a little bit bored of having to explain this.

Hi IT, yes, I've got some memories of your explaining the SNP Scottish election manifesto - and, I guess, it was also in the recent UK General Election SNP manifesto. But, my point was that Ms Sturgeon has announced a change to her plans this week. She now wants a later indyref2. Where does the later date fir with the two manifesto commitments?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:57 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:We become the land of opportunity overnight. There is money to be made there for the right entrepreneurs.
One mans loss is another man's gain.

I'm beginning to think the only difference between remainers and Brexit-eers isn't our view of the EU, but wether we have a positive or a negative outlook on life.

Positivity won't rebuild our car industry - and certainly not overnight. There is being positive, and there is being naive. In addition to this we have a government who refuse to invest on the economy. They said as much during the election.