Academy- good investment?

[bfccrazy]

https://ukfootballtrials.com/football-trials

Such as this - where our scouts along with lots of other clubs pitch up.

What happened to scouts actually scouting and standing out in the cold every weekend trying to unearth a gem.....

[ClaretTony]

It is a huge shame - that lads from Burnley who have supported them all their lives ...... Havent had an avenue into the youth teams.

I know a few parents who laugh now at Burnley "scouting" their kids as they are bot prepared to go down there and give the club the time. There are lads I know who have turned down contracts with local academies to carry on playing on Sunday mornings with their mates instead.

Something is very wrong with this .... It's good to know that things are changing again thougj as there is a lot of proper Burnley supporting kids playing locally who are very good. They just don't turn up to "scouting days" where the parents have paid a couple of hundred pounds for scouts to come and watch them.

As I said, we are repairing damage but damage sometimes takes a long time to repair. To disassociate with Lancashire School was criminal.

[dandeclaret]

In the near 10 years i was scouting, I never saw any of the lads I scouted with charge any player to be scouted, nor did I get asked to go and watch a player without a huge amount of research done beforehand. Sadly, as CT mentions, the club, through Jason Blake did not appreciate what a good, proactive and committed scouting network it had, and his actions caused it to be dismantled.

Also found that the level of ability in Burnley compared to Manchester, Preston, Liverpool, Huddersfield, Leeds and Bradford was much lower. Blake wanted local kids, and thus removed development centres in Manchester, Liverpool and Halifax amongst others.

[ontario claret]

Not promoting local youth is something of a BFC tradition, is it not? It seems to me that most of our best players have come from either the north-east or Ireland.

[Sidney1st]

Or the good players in Burnley aren't good enough or are somewhere else already.

[ontario claret]

Who was the greatest player ever born in Burnley, and who did he play for? Jay Rodriguez?

[ClaretTony]

Not promoting local youth is something of a BFC tradition, is it not? It seems to me that most of our best players have come from either the north-east or Ireland.

That's a strange post. Doesn't really matter where our best players have come from, it doesn't mean we don't promote local young players.

[DCWat]

Where do we have development centres now and have we begun to build these back up?

Surely the academy is a good investment if it achieves at least one of:

• Producing first team players every three plus years
• Producing players that we can sell on
• Running with little or no deficit

We are never going to compete with the local big guns, though do we really need to? If we can become the go to destination outside of City, United, Liverpool, Everton we will surely be picking up some real prospects and should be aiming to take advantage of our current position over the likes of Rovers and Leeds etc.

A few more years in the Premier League (fingers crossed) and perhaps we can really start to produce some talent and show a pathway to the first team for future recruits.

We'd all love to see a kid come through that grew up watching us as a fan - although I personally don't care if they are from Burnley, Ireland or wherever.

[Sidney1st]

Out of interest does anyone know if Academies have a limit on the number of young players they can recruit/hoover up?

[Andingle]

Out of interest does anyone know if Academies have a limit on the number of young players they can recruit/hoover up?

Yes ,
U9s to U14s they can sign a maximum of x 30 players in each age group
U15 & U16s x 20 in each age group
U17s to U21s x 15 in each age group

[Dark Cloud]

It may well be that producing youngsters through a club's academy who make the first XI isn't actually he be all and end all. Many youngsters may end up making the grade at some stage, BUT at a lower level. However they will still command a fee when that happens and even if that fee is £500,000 - 1 million say, you only need a couple and you're well on the way to covering annual costs.

[Sidney1st]

Warnock was on talksport this morning and he said they've just sold a 12yr old at Cardiff.
I didn't think that was allowed at that age, or is he just not phrasing it very well?

[ClaretTony]

Warnock was on talksport this morning and he said they've just sold a 12yr old at Cardiff.
I didn't think that was allowed at that age, or is he just not phrasing it very well?

There are standard compensation figures now when a player moves from one academy to another. It is dependent on his age and the categories of the two clubs.

[Andingle]

Warnock was on talksport this morning and he said they've just sold a 12yr old at Cardiff.
I didn't think that was allowed at that age, or is he just not phrasing it very well?

Yes it happens often , Cat 1 clubs attend Cat 2 & 3 academy's regular looking for players , they will put a bid in for any players they are interested in , it is a set fee dependent on age , time at club and length of contract but most Cat 1 clubs will pay above the set fee as a gesture of goodwill , the player can decide to stay at his registered club if preferred but the club cannot refuse the bid if the player chooses to take the offer.

[Sidney1st]

That's me something new learnt today then, cheers.

[ralph]

[quote="dandeclaret"]

Also found that the level of ability in Burnley compared to Manchester, Preston, Liverpool, Huddersfield, Leeds and Bradford was much lower. /quote]

Absolutely.

[Sleeping Cat]

The hoovering up of talent by the big clubs is definitely an issue. It's problematic for several reasons.

1. The top clubs hog onto talent because they are competing against the best in Europe week in week out, with little opportunity to blood the players making their chances of breaking through much lower.

2. the top clubs compete with each other to attract the best talent. This can include sweeteners being offered to the families and also see the young players themselves commanding a wage much higher than could be afforded by club where they may have a better chance of playing regularly.

3. Professional experience. They live in a small bubble in academies, clubs want to protect them but that see them ageing too long without gaining proper experience. You can see the difference between a 21 year old who has played 3/4 years in lower leagues & one who has spent his whole time in an academy.

4. The demand for success is so high managers don;t want to take the risk on youth and go for experience. We are no different here & Dyche has said it himself. If a manager is responsible for results and can be sacked on the back of 3 poor performances then where is the incentive to invest in the future.

[Inchy]

I don't understand the problems Howe's men caused to the youth set up.

We went from hardly bringing through any youth players to hardly bringing through any youth players. I don't know the ins and outs but it hasn't had a massive difference on the first team.


Lets not forget Cotterill's contribution . What a bridge!

[Sidney1st]

The top clubs also use them to generate income by loan fees, like Chelsea are doing.

[Pstotto]

At least investing in an academy sharpens the focus as to what they are about.

[Quickenthetempo]

I know local coaches that don't want kids going into acadamies. Too many kids used and dumped easily after being promised the world.

A step in the right direction with us if kids can still play for school or clubs with their mates.

[ecc]

I've been living abroad for a long time hence my question:

Do schools have proper organised teams competing with other schools?

[ontario claret]

You'll have to explain to me why my comment was a "strange post", Tony. By traditionally doing our recruiting outside of Lancashire, are we not denying local talent a chance. First team spots are finite. Nobody wants to be left on the bench forever.

[Chester Perry]

Howard Wilkinson thinks is grand plan needs to change

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... emy-system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Sidney1st]

Maybe what's needed is for this home grown rule to be tightened up, homegrown should mean English, not some foreign player who's been in a clubs academy for a few years.

[LeuvenClaret]

When I started this thread I was looking at it from a clubs perspective and was initially surprised by Huddersfield reducing their investment in youth, reading this article it doesn’t look good from a youth players perspective either!

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41839083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Sidney1st]

Interesting reading.

It's worth looking at the outlay at Derby on their first team, amongst other things, this could help explain why they're looking for such a large amount.

The lad possibly hasn't helped himself being on his 4th club already before reaching 16.

Bigger clubs like Chelsea and City have refined their systems so they get a steady stream of income from loaning out youth players, but they also pay their youth players silly money.

I wouldn't say the blame lies wholly with Derby in this case, they're merely looking to maximise the revenue.
If the kid was worth it, clubs would pay it though and he's had a crack at a couple of top clubs before ending up at Derby..
He's now trying to claim bigger, or PL, clubs want him and it isn't fair that he can't ditch Derby who've invested some time in him.

[LeuvenClaret]

But to me it doesn’t look like the acedamy system is working and my thoughts on this being if Huddersfield see it as Something not to invest in when given a large sum of money, It may be a waste of cash for us to invest in. The sums now are vast to get status and maintain that status, look at Blackburn where are their star youth players for all the investment? You would have thought being in league one they would have been rushed through!

Personally I would rather pick up a player that didn’t make it with the big guys than waste cash on something that might be, great examples are Keane and Mee.

To read the last link from a 15 year old tide to a club he doesn’t want to be at and considering going non league also points to the system not working in my opinion.

[Sidney1st]

We know it doesn't work very well, but the kid or his family, keep switching clubs.

He's 15 and been at Villa, City, Atletico Madrid and now Derby.
He's had time invested in him by all of the clubs.
Yes Derby only paid £7k for him from City, but they're looking after their investment in him and others.

It takes time for academies to provide players good enough for a clubs first team, so whilst it may not seem a good investment now, it could be in a number of years.

I'll point you in the direction of Crewe, who don't have Cat 1, but they do have a long and rich history of promoting kids to their first team.
A number have gone on to play at the top level, including England,

It takes time though to earn that reputation and we have had to start from scratch again.

[LeuvenClaret]

I respect your opinion Sidney and don’t disput training youth can be productive. I just don’t think the system today is worth the investment and your example of Crewe just proves that. They are hardly loaded considering the talent they produced, they got a partnership with Liverpool and has that helped them?

[Dark Cloud]

https://ukfootballtrials.com/football-trials

Such as this - where our scouts along with lots of other clubs pitch up.

What happened to scouts actually scouting and standing out in the cold every weekend trying to unearth a gem.....

Looking at the link this operation smacks of something of a racket. It's clearly a commercial operation and players can pay to have a "trial" and be "scouted". They're as bad a anyone else at selling a dream which in almost every case won't ever work out. I wonder just how many real clubs actually do send real scouts to watch this lot.

[Sidney1st]

I respect your opinion Sidney and don’t disput training youth can be productive. I just don’t think the system today is worth the investment and your example of Crewe just proves that. They are hardly loaded considering the talent they produced, they got a partnership with Liverpool and has that helped them?

They're still afloat

[bfccrazy]

Looking at the link this operation smacks of something of a racket. It's clearly a commercial operation and players can pay to have a "trial" and be "scouted". They're as bad a anyone else at selling a dream which in almost every case won't ever work out. I wonder just how many real clubs actually do send real scouts to watch this lot.

If you look at their success stories and videos - they've had lads at Burnley and also Burnley scouts present at trials.

[Sidney1st]

Plus I think in the last 12 months or so Crewe had a starting 11 who had all come from their academy.
That's impressive at any level.