Tarkowski's Hand

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:19 am

If this is true then Tarkowski will be able to offer this in his defence and if he can argue that it was instinctive/involuntary then he has a chance of not being suspended. But i'm not expecting that to happen.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:20 am

4:20 wrote:In that case, all teams should be targeting Peter Cechs head to get under his skin. Its only gamesmanship after all.

What a weird comment. I didn’t say I agree with gamesmanship, although it worked for us against Sunderland last season.

Barnes elbowed their CB (forgot name) who tried to elbow Barnes back at the next opportunity, leaving grey unmarked instead bumping into o Shea. The ball flew over and grey was clean through.

Gamesmanship happens

Bfcboyo · Post by **Bfcboyo** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:22 am

Will we see a left handed salute, arm out raised slightly over head height and hand out with palm to the floor as a gesture on 36 mins of the Tottenham game?
We could all sing "march march Tarkowski".

I don't know how the self proclaimed minority in the opposite end the 'Yid Army' might take our confusing tribute mind!

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:22 am

Rick_Muller wrote:Of course, you have the experience to say that as you have had a dislocated finger grabbed during a Premier League game... No...? oh in that case then, I think that the possibility that this did happen does offer some mitigation as to his actions, so it is excusable.

Well it’s excusable to us, but it won’t be to the FA and that’s what matters

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:28 am

I will rephrase that. It’s excusable to some on here but not to me. Could have cost us the game and we will miss him during the suspension which is coming.

We don’t know his finger was dislocated. What if it was just a bit sore, is that still a good enough reason to elbow someone so obviously. I’d have preferred if he has stood on his foot or nipped his arm, no ban then because you can conseal it. Murray has played him.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:32 am

Inchy wrote:I will rephrase that. It’s excusable to some on here but not to me. Could have cost us the game and we will miss him during the suspension which is coming.

We don’t know his finger was dislocated. What if it was just a bit sore, is that still a good enough reason to elbow someone so obviously. I’d have preferred if he has stood on his foot or nipped his arm, no ban then because you can conseal it. Murray has played him.

you're right in that we dont know the real facts about this as in whether his finger was dislocated or not. But are you really condoning premeditated action, in your words I’d have preferred if he has stood on his foot or nipped his arm over what very well may have been an instinctive, albeit wrong, involuntary reaction to experiencing extreme pain which may actually be the case in this?

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:35 am

I cannot for the life of me see how it was instinctive but yeah I would have prefer he had thought about his revenge

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:37 am

Inchy wrote:We don’t need to understand his actions. They are inexcusable. Is he the type of player to deliberately and maliciously elbow someone? Yeah because he has and I bet he’s probably done it before in the lower leagues and gotten away with it. He’s a CB

I almost agree, not with 'inexcusable' but with words like 'totally unacceptable'.
However, there maybe extenuating circumstances.
For example, if your dislocated finger is grabbed deliberately, most people tend to perform some sort of instantaneous reaction to stop the pain!

This is a genuine question.
Tarks has been at the club for 2-years? now.
Have you ever seen him deliberately elbow or perform a nasty tackle on an opponent?
For me, mis-timed, perhaps even clumsy on occasions, but nasty and vindictive = no
To me this is totally out of character.
'He's a CB' ?
Dig in the ribs from a CB = ok, but this appeared to be much more than that.

Anyhow, I am only telling you all what I am saying at the F.A.'s meeting today.

Inchy: I am going to look up the word 'gotten' now. I thought it was an Americanism or even a Trumpism, clearly not.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:38 am

I am just amazed that people are still coming up with excuses, which is the same as mitigating circumstances in this case, to defend the inexcusable.

I like Tarks, he is one of our best. I bet he learns from this because I don’t think it was instinctive. Pulling his arm away probably was, then ramming elbow in wasn’t IMO.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:41 am

Forgive me for the poor English I am using an iPad for the first time and hate the typing on it. If pointing out poor English makes you feel better I don’t mind

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:43 am

Inchy wrote:I cannot for the life of me see how it was instinctive but yeah I would have prefer he had thought about his revenge

you've never stubbed your toe on a table or stood on lego or a plug that caused an involuntary physical reaction?

We'll have to agree to disagree on this Inchy, its a good debate with opposing views where I can accept that his reaction may have been caused by something Murray had done and if he can demonstrate that at the personal hearing (if he is having one) then his punishment may not be as bad as 3 game ban. I can also accept that he may well have elbowed Murray with intent and would then deserve a 3 game ban as per the rules of football.

We are all speculating at this stage, but it is reasonable to accept that there are mitigating circumstances dont you think?

4:20 · Post by **4:20** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:43 am

Inchy wrote:What a weird comment. I didn’t say I agree with gamesmanship, although it worked for us against Sunderland last season.

Barnes elbowed their CB (forgot name) who tried to elbow Barnes back at the next opportunity, leaving grey unmarked instead bumping into o Shea. The ball flew over and grey was clean through.

Gamesmanship happens

There was and never will be any reason for murray to grab tarks hand at any point in the game.

The reaction by Tarks was wrong.

If he gets banned, then I can understand the decision under the laws of the game and I fully accept the decision of the F.A. you can't do that under any circumstances.

All I'm saying is that I understand why he did it. I once turned around and smacked my best friend in the nose, breaking it, straight after he slapped the raw sunburn on my back. It was an instant reaction that I will forever by sorry for. But it that exact instance, the pain made me react in a way that I would not do in a normal situation.

I was really REALLY dissapointed with Tarks at the time. Providing this evidence is how things actually transpired, I no longer feel dissapointment, the whole situation sucks yes, Tarks did wrong, Murray did wrong. In my eyes, Murray is the real arsehole here in this specific situation. Both should be banned though.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:46 am

If Barnes had done something similar to Murray I wonder if we would be calling him an arsehole

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:48 am

Inchy wrote:If Barnes had done something similar to Murray I wonder if we would be calling him an arsehole

I would be, I like Barnes but if he purposefully went out of his way to injure another professional then I would want him punished appropriately.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:48 am

Rick_Muller wrote:you've never stubbed your toe on a table or stood on lego or a plug that caused an involuntary physical reaction?

We'll have to agree to disagree on this Inchy, its a good debate with opposing views where I can accept that his reaction may have been caused by something Murray had done and if he can demonstrate that at the personal hearing (if he is having one) then his punishment may not be as bad as 3 game ban. I can also accept that he may well have elbowed Murray with intent and would then deserve a 3 game ban as per the rules of football.

We are all speculating at this stage, but it is reasonable to accept that there are mitigating circumstances dont you think?

I hope the FA agree with you but I doubt they will. If he gets a 3 game ban I am sure some will be moaning about some FA conspiracy against Burnley

4:20 · Post by **4:20** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:49 am

Inchy wrote:If Barnes had done something similar to Murray I wonder if we would be calling him an arsehole

I would call him an arsehole, yes, nobody is immune to being an arsehole.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:52 am

Rick_Muller wrote:I would be, I like Barnes but if he purposefully went out of his way to injure another professional then I would want him punished appropriately.

I can’t find the highlights from Sunderland last season but Barnes elbowed there CB which made him react and created Greys goal. I remember at the time thinking “excellent Barnes”

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:59 am

Inchy wrote:I can’t find the highlights from Sunderland last season but Barnes elbowed there CB which made him react and created Greys goal. I remember at the time thinking “excellent Barnes”

this match...? cant see anything in the highlights though let me know which Gray goal it is that Barnes elbows someone

http://www.skysports.com/football/burnl ... and/356516" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:10 am

Inchy wrote:Forgive me for the poor English I am using an iPad for the first time and hate the typing on it. If pointing out poor English makes you feel better I don’t mind

It didn't make me feel better. I am a genuinely inquisitive bloke.
It is an American word nowadays. However, they tend to use words that were common in Britain in the 1700's.
These have since declined in Britain, but continue to be used in the U.S. I wondered if it was one of those words.
It does seem to be making a comeback over here though, and you used it, so as per this thread I have decided to investigate it.
Apparently the Brits often use it incorrectly.

The other one that intrigues me is the word 'billion'.
When I was at school a 'billion' was 1million million. Nowadays we seem to have adapted to the American billion,
which is a mere thousand million.
Oh, the English language, I love it.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:14 am

Barnes elbowed the CB a few mins before the first goal. It’s not on the highlight but several others pointed it out at the time on here. Watch the first goal. The CB totally leaves Grey to get in a 50/50 with Barnes, even though he was marked by o Shea. It was excellent by Barnes. He had wound the player up who made a silly mistake

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:23 am

: Any medics? Is that dislocated?; Screenshot (12).png (1 MiB) Viewed 3728 times

Any medics? Diagnosis please.

Inchy · Post by **Inchy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:24 am

I have no idea but looks more broken than dislocated

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:28 am

I thought that too Inchy.
My index finger is straight.
Strange kink between palm and first knuckle.
It also looks a strange colour.

4:20 · Post by **4:20** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:28 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Screenshot (12).png
Any medics? Diagnosis please.

"You sir, won't be playing guitar for a while. Dont let anyone grab it."

"Why would someone grab it? I'm a footballer not an infant school teacher."

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:29 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:Two wrongs make a right?

Is that the defence?

Well actually.....yes. Everyone has a right to defend themselves in law within reason and a quick elbow to the ribs is not exactly life-threatening is it.

So yes - in this case two 'wrongs' do make a right.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:37 am

4:20 wrote:"You sir, won't be playing guitar for a while. Dont let anyone grab it."

"Why would someone grab it? I'm a footballer not an infant school teacher."

I like it 4.20

Murray was clearly going to have a look at it, sit Tarks on his knee and kiss it better for him.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:40 am

If we are actually contesting it (which would be risky) then I hope our defence is better than "well he deserved it gov, and by god, he got it"

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:49 am

Inchy wrote:I am just amazed that people are still coming up with excuses, which is the same as mitigating circumstances in this case, to defend the inexcusable.

I like Tarks, he is one of our best. I bet he learns from this because I don’t think it was instinctive. Pulling his arm away probably was, then ramming elbow in wasn’t IMO.

I'm, not sure how you can say it's not instinctive? I don't know about you or anyone else but if someone causes me pain, whoever it be and especially if it is intentional, I tend to 'land out' in some way and it is instinctive. I once pushed a glass in a guys face in a club because he punched me without me even expecting it and the weird thing was he didn't really hurt me that much it was just a self-defence mechanism, thankfully he wasn't that badly hurt. My point is that when someone causes you pain you never know for sure how you are going to react but one thing is certain, reaction to pain is totally instinctive. It's the classic Persigian argument about sitting on a hot stove by accident: you don't think 'oh that's hot' and make a conscious decision to get off, you just jump off 'instinctively' and think about it afterwards. The player who grabbed Tarks' hand was the stove.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:52 am

How long did you go down for glassing someone?

Or did you get away with it because it was "instinctive"?*

*Don't answer please as its your business! but you surely see the point I'm making that its not a valid defence.

4:20 · Post by **4:20** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:54 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:I like it 4.20
Murray was clearly going to have a look at it, sit Tarks on his knee and kiss it better for him.

The amount of times I felt like doing that to my German teacher in high school after he again lost control of our rowdy classroom

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:55 am

So we've got people saying we should do Nazi salutes against Spurs, and that glassing someone is just a natural reaction.

Hells teeth this forum plumbs some depths

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:57 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:If we are actually contesting it (which would be risky) then I hope our defence is better than "well he deserved it gov, and by god, he got it"

I speculate that the defence is probably along the lines of:
I had just broken my finger. Murray probably knew I needed it attending to, because I had been signalling to the bench
to get a bandage ready. Rather than stop the game, I carried on until there was a natural break in the game.
During this time Murray walked towards me in the penalty area, whilst a throw in was being taken. He had his back to the ball
and he then simply and deliberately grabbed my broken finger.
I instinctively tried to protect myself by spinning away from him and digging him in the ribs.
Due to the pain he inflicted on me, my spinning away and digging him in the ribs was just an instinctive reaction, over which I had no control.
There was no pre-meditation, merely an instant reaction to reduce the pain he was causing me.
It was rather like the reaction you get when you stub your toe on the bed leg. You instinctively shout and lift your foot to grab the affected toe.
I appreciate that was wrong of me and fully apologise to Mr Murray if I have caused him any harm and for the incident.
However, I do feel there are extenuating circumstances.

I am sure a lawyer could word it better, gov.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:02 am

2 Bee Holed wrote: It was rather like the reaction you get when you stub your toe on the bed leg. You instinctively shout and lift your foot to grab the affected toe.

This was my explanation of Bernardo Silva winning the penalty when Pope fouled him

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:03 am

That actually sounds great to be honest but I don't think it will work!

Guich · Post by **Guich** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:05 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:That actually sounds great to be honest but I don't think it will work!

Indeed, this is the FA we're talking about

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:07 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:This was my explanation of Bernardo Silva winning the penalty when Pope fouled him

Yes but when I stub my toe, I generally only lift the affected foot.
I don't raise both feet and fly 5 yards across the bedroom with both arms fully out, and land on my chest.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:28 am

Great observation by the OP.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:58 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Screenshot (12).png
Any medics? Diagnosis please.

Impossibly to tell from the photo. Only an X-ray would clear it up. But you are much more likely to break the finger than dislocate that joint

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Inchy wrote:Why are we still going on about this?

Some Burnley fans really have a complex about the world being against us. The FA hate us, MOTD hate us because they put us last, refs hate us. It’s a bit classless.

We need to accept it and get over it.

Hey bud, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:44 pm

Inchy wrote:Why are we still going on about this?

Some Burnley fans really have a complex about the world being against us. The FA hate us, MOTD hate us because they put us last, refs hate us. It’s a bit classless.

We need to accept it and get over it.

I knew they all hated us but now you tell me they think we're classless too!

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:That actually sounds great to be honest but I don't think it will work!

Not sure he will avoid a ban based on this defence, but it ought to help ensure that the ban is not excessive.
Hopefully they might also take into account that despite playing in the position he does he only has 3 yellows and no reds this season.
It's not as though he's already in the naughty book like Deeney.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:20 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Not sure he will avoid a ban based on this defence, but it ought to help ensure that the ban is not excessive.
Hopefully they might also take into account that despite playing in the position he does he only has 3 yellows and no reds this season.
It's not as though he's already in the naughty book like Deeney.

The irony will be that the ban is revoked but he's out injured...

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:35 pm

Are we really defending Tark for intentionally elbowing a player in the ribs?

Ok, the referee saw it so its ok to elbow players, we should start throwing more elbows like in the UFC.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:58 pm

I don't think his hand came into it. The Burnley players are pointing at the guy on the byline, who needs covering. Murray clearly blocks Tarks from getting to him, which should have been called by the ref, and that's why he gave him one, in order to break free and cover the lad receiving the ball.
He ain't going to go unpunished. I don't think it warrants more than one game, but us being little old Burnley it's bound to be three.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:04 pm

KRBFC wrote:Are we really defending Tark for intentionally elbowing a player in the ribs?

Ok, the referee saw it so its ok to elbow players, we should start throwing more elbows like in the UFC.

As usual you haven't actually read the thread and you have drawn your own conclusions about what other people think, great job, keep up the good work.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:05 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:So we've got people saying we should do Nazi salutes against Spurs, and that glassing someone is just a natural reaction.

Hells teeth this forum plumbs some depths

Keep it in context mate. The salute thing I'm sure was said in jest and my reaction was from a much younger man 30 or more years ago who was drunk at the time and who hadn't slept properly for 3 days. If you actually READ what is put you would realise that nobody is condoning these things just saying that we all do stupid things when pain is inflicted on us. It's all partly down to adrenalin and testosterone, a toxic mix at times. Although there are those politically correct people who would have all the natural tendencies squeezed out of us in the name of acceptability (a much overused word these days) we must not lose sight of the fact that we are still basically animals and as such we have still got animal instincts.
We have a cat, a lovely animal. I stepped on her the other morning coming down stairs in the dark and obviously caused her pain, I had no shoes on, you should see the state of my foot and ankle now after her reaction. She doesn't hate me, it was just a reaction.

2 Bee Holed · Post by **2 Bee Holed** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:17 pm

KRBFC wrote:Are we really defending Tark for intentionally elbowing a player in the ribs?

Ok, the referee saw it so its ok to elbow players, we should start throwing more elbows like in the UFC.

Oh dear!
1/. No we are not defending him, it was wrong of him to do that. What I am arguing is that perhaps there were extenuating circumstances.
2/. The referee didn't see it. That's why it has been referred to this F.A. panel.
3/. Nobody is arguing that we should start throwing more elbows.

Apart from these 3 things KRBFC, your post is absolutely correct.

This panel is taking its time by the way!

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:59 pm

I prefered the football of the seventies. How about Franny Lee vs Norman DC Hunter?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:22 pm

The panel will have already looked at the incident and decided he was guilty before he was charged.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:25 pm

I think Tarkowski had gone cold and stiff, as Murray was too slow. To keep warm, he did that 'swing torso sharp right and then sharp left, with power through the bent arm' exercises.

He swung one way but Murray saw him warming up and stepped in his way, to upset the rhythm. Dirty b'tard Murray! That's gamesmanship!