Aaron Lennon no thanks

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:06 pm

I remember him ripping us to shreds at WHL in the cup semi final 1st leg, the only problem was, he'd beat 3 Burnley players with ease and cross it to the guy in the stands on the opposite side.

Mansfield-Claret · Post by **Mansfield-Claret** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:44 am

its not all about crossing the ball https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzEU969XhT0, hes got quick feet, can score and can cause problems
and this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIEZjLX4n7E

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:59 am

taio wrote:24% is decent enough. Random comparison on this particular stat...David Silva 27%, Antonio Valencia 26%, Victor Moses 20%, Eden Hazard 18%. As are his other key stats for a winger eg goals and assists.

Ox 21%

Top post.

People can't bring statistics to the table if they have no idea of how those statistics stack up against the competition.

Stan Tastic · Post by **Stan Tastic** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:07 am

MDWat wrote:30 years old, 250+ Prem appearances, pace to burn, loads of experience, fits the framework of the side.

People turning their nose up. Unbelievable.

What could possibly go wrong with signing a 30 year old that relies on pace and has recently suffered from depression?

Young_Claret_91 · Post by **Young_Claret_91** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:20 am

Stan Tastic wrote:What could possibly go wrong with signing a 30 year old that relies on pace and has recently suffered from depression?

What has depression got to do with anything?

Just because you have suffered from a mental illness doesn't mean you aren't able to perform.

He has shown that he is mentally stronger than ever before by breaking back into the Everton team.

I think Lennon would be a great fit for us.

jojomk1 · Post by **jojomk1** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:04 am

Given that we have just signed Nkoudou on loan what are our other priorities ?

Would hope we are concentrating now on another CB and a No 10 before considering Lennon

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:06 am

taio wrote:If anything I would expect stats to reduce over a long period.

Why would you expect that?

bob-the-scutter · Post by **bob-the-scutter** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:24 am

If we want a player who has pace to burn, can beat defenders and then cross the ball expertly into the crowd he's perfect!
Quite possibly the most overated player of his generation.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:25 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Top post.

People can't bring statistics to the table if they have no idea of how those statistics stack up against the competition.

Why can't I bring them to the table?

Are we comparing Lennon against like for like in this instance?

Not really anymore.
Valencia has been used mainly as a right back / wing back.
Same with Moses.

Hazard isn't fixed to the wing and has a tendancy to not bother turning up for half a season if he doesn't like the manager.
Silva plays through the middle.
Both these players are known more for their passes through a defence, not over it incase you weren't aware.

So again, I'd say Lennon isn't what we need unless we want a runner.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:27 am

Sidney1st wrote:Why can't I bring them to the table?

Are we comparing Lennon against like for like in this instance?

Not really anymore.
Valencia has been used mainly as a right back / wing back.
Same with Moses.

Hazard isn't fixed to the wing and has a tendancy to not bother turning up for half a season if he doesn't like the manager.
Silva plays through the middle.
Both these players are known more for their passes through a defence, not over it incase you weren't aware.

So again, I'd say Lennon isn't what we need unless we want a runner.

Provide me with a list of 10 Premier League players with a better crossing percentage then, highlighting which are available and in our budget.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:30 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Provide me with a list of 10 Premier League players with a better crossing percentage then, highlighting which are available and in our budget.

Is he in our budget/wage range?
£55k a week would say he's probably not going to be, so you've fallen at the first hurdle already.

We don't even know if he's available either...

As for finding 10 better within our budget, you know that probably won't happen because better players would be outside our budgets, which is why we'd be better off finding someone else.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:32 am

Sidney1st wrote:Is he in our budget/wage range?
£55k a week would say he's probably not going to be, so you've fallen at the first hurdle already.

We don't even know if he's available either...

As for finding 10 better within our budget, you know that probably won't happen because better players would be outside our budgets, which is why we'd be better off finding someone else.

He's been heavily linked from both ends in two successive windows, so I'd say he would be within our budget.

So who should we sign, in your opinion?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:52 am

Grosicki is one example and please note I said an example.

I could trawl through the championship for wingers but there will be some in there who could do the same job as Lennon.

What you're looking for is an argument just for the sake of it and today I can't be arsed.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:52 am

We could even push the boat out and look abroad.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:53 am

Sidney1st wrote:Grosicki is one example and please note I said an example.

I could trawl through the championship for wingers but there will be some in there who could do the same job as Lennon.

What you're looking for is an argument just for the sake of it and today I can't be arsed.

Kamil Grosicki...with his crossing percentage of 20%?

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:54 am

expect this to drag out to the end of the window, we were really close to getting him in the summer.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:56 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Kamil Grosicki...with his crossing percentage of 20%?

Over the course of his whole career?
I'm impressed you found that information so quickly or were you just looking at last season when he played just over a dozen games?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:58 am

Sidney1st wrote:
What you're looking for is an argument just for the sake of it and today I can't be arsed.

You're the one looking for arguments with your tiresome Mary Mary quite Contrary inputs to every single topic on this board.

You then present statistics to back you up, which actually do the opposite and make you look very silly.

It happens almost every day. Last week where you couldn't understand a simple table.

This week when you present a stat as a stick to beat Lennon with, however this is a stat which is actually pretty impressive when viewed in context.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:59 am

Sidney1st wrote:Over the course of his whole career?
I'm impressed you found that information so quickly or were you just looking at last season when he played just over a dozen games?

you're absolutely desperate.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:06 pm

I'll have to check but I don't comment on every single topic on this forum.

Not desperate, I provided stats from Lennon's career which has been spent in the PL.
You're providing one or two seasons at most.

I wasn't trying to beat Lennon with anything, just giving my opinion that we don't need to sign him.

Of course I could be wrong and it could work out to be a good signing.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:06 pm

Do you not like him because he plays for Everton, and you're a Liverpool fan?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:09 pm

I didn't say I didn't like him and who he plays for isn't an issue.
I'm glad that still bugs you all these years later.

I just said I didn't think he'd be the right player for us.
A few people have now said he's not that good at crossing, yet you won't discuss it with them which implies you've got an agenda against me.

BOYSIE31 · Post by **BOYSIE31** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:14 pm

I would also look elswhere

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 pm

There's a repuation that Lennon's crosses aren't great, however that reputation clearly precedes him as when you see his stats they actually hold up ok.
It's you who can't back down and see that.

At Burnley, long before you switched to support us, we had a winger called Glen Little. Now he had nowhere near Lennon's pace, but his main tactic was getting to the byeline and standing up a cross to the back post. That's also Aaron Lennon's modus operandi, from memory.

Whether a goal comes from that depends on whether you've got a striker who's good in the air. We've got Wood and Vokes who are both big guys and good in the air.

If the cross is overhit,and we've seen from the stats that some brilliant players have got cross conversion rates lower than Lennon, then maybe you need that pacy guy on the other side to come into the box beyond the back post. Nkoudou joined last week. Bingo.

Sign him on.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:20 pm

Not so sure on this personally - could be quite a risk financially for us. We are probably talking about the next level up of player here and a salary package that would go with it.

Lennon has had a very good career for Spurs and England. Those questioning whether he used to be good need a bit of a reality check - you don't play for Spurs and England as much as Lennon has if you have no end product as some are describing.

For us the question is whether he can still do a job. He's struggling to get in an Everton side which seem to be crying out for a player of his pace and attacking style.

Dyche will have done his homework on the player and what he can bring to us.

But for me if we are giving out a 3 year contract on £50k a week I think this is a little too risky for us and I would rather look at the Championship (e.g. lad at Forest or the winger at Sheff Utd). Would be much cheaper and we still have Brady to come back next season hopefully.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:21 pm

Brilliant players who play in different positions as I pointed out but you've ignored.

Stats for Lennon -
342 appearances, 925 crosses = 2.7 crosses a game on average with a 24% target hit rate overall.

You can toss one off to those stats all you like, but he isn't worth the money to us that it's going to need to get him.

TopCat · Post by **TopCat** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:22 pm

Whatever happened to Markovic who was on loan from Liverpool to Hull?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:23 pm

His contract is up at the end of the season. He'll cost peanuts.

He'll fit in our wage structure. I see no problem with him signing

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:24 pm

TopCat wrote:Whatever happened to Markovic who was on loan from Liverpool to Hull?

I've had a look round and it would appear he's registered to play this season for Liverpool in the PL but hasn't been used at all for any comp.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:25 pm

Think looking at historical stats in isolation is s bit ridiculous to be honest. Anybody who says that the Lennon who played for Spurs and England (and ripped Burnley apart as a young lad for Leeds) is not good enough for Burnley does not have a clue about football.....using statistics is just daft in this case as clearly he must have had other very good stats to reach the level he did.

Question is whether he is still good enough to justify the level of wages he would command - clearly he is not the player he once was.

Reecey1987 · Post by **Reecey1987** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:33 pm

TVC15 wrote:Not so sure on this personally - could be quite a risk financially for us. We are probably talking about the next level up of player here and a salary package that would go with it.

Lennon has had a very good career for Spurs and England. Those questioning whether he used to be good need a bit of a reality check - you don't play for Spurs and England as much as Lennon has if you have no end product as some are describing.

For us the question is whether he can still do a job. He's struggling to get in an Everton side which seem to be crying out for a player of his pace and attacking style.

Dyche will have done his homework on the player and what he can bring to us.

But for me if we are giving out a 3 year contract on £50k a week I think this is a little too risky for us and I would rather look at the Championship (e.g. lad at Forest or the winger at Sheff Utd). Would be much cheaper and we still have Brady to come back next season hopefully.

Which lad at forest ?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:38 pm

TopCat wrote:Whatever happened to Markovic who was on loan from Liverpool to Hull?

Liverpool wanted £16m or his wages paid in full for a loan. Hasn't played for them for 2 and a half years.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/fo ... m-14045524

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:41 pm

Sidney1st wrote:As for finding 10 better within our budget, you know that probably won't happen because better players would be outside our budgets, which is why we'd be better off finding someone else.

That doesn't make sense, it sounds like you're saying we can't afford anyone better than Lennon so we should look for someone else, who will probably not be as good?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:45 pm

Tall Paul wrote:That doesn't make sense, it sounds like you're saying we can't afford anyone better than Lennon so we should look for someone else, who will probably not be as good?

Can we afford to adjust our wage structure to accomodate him?
If he was guaranteed to perform and give us a decent return then yes maybe we should, but is anything guaranteed with him?

You say the stats are pointless but he averages a couple of crosses a game and that isn't really alot for the wages it would cost.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Can we afford to adjust our wage structure to accomodate him?
If he was guaranteed to perform and give us a decent return then yes maybe we should, but is anything guaranteed with him?

You say the stats are pointless but he averages a couple of crosses a game and that isn't really alot for the wages it would cost.

why would we have to adjust our wage structure?
no player guarantees you anything.
i think we'd be basing our decision on more than how many crosses he averages.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:53 pm

So if he isn't willing to drop down from the reputed £55k a week?

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:55 pm

if he wasn't we wouldn't have bothered trying to sign him.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:56 pm

Reecey1987 wrote:Which lad at forest ?

Kieron Dowell - he's on loan from Everton actually. Only young but seen him a few times this year and he looks quality.
The Championship is at such a high level now that I don't think there is much different in standard to many teams in Europe (obviously not the top teams) and you know that whoever you are buying is more likely to be able to adapt.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:02 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:if he wasn't we wouldn't have bothered trying to sign him.

Was it a loan deal last summer?
If so he wouldn't need to drop his wages.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:03 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Can we afford to adjust our wage structure to accomodate him?
If he was guaranteed to perform and give us a decent return then yes maybe we should, but is anything guaranteed with him?

You say the stats are pointless but he averages a couple of crosses a game and that isn't really alot for the wages it would cost.

I didn't say the stats are pointless.

Earlier in this thread you said he puts a lot of crosses in, now you're saying he doesn't.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:06 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Can we afford to adjust our wage structure to accomodate him?
If he was guaranteed to perform and give us a decent return then yes maybe we should, but is anything guaranteed with him?

You say the stats are pointless but he averages a couple of crosses a game and that isn't really alot for the wages it would cost.

The way you quote / use stats they are pretty pointless ! Seriously if all Lennon did in a game was an average of 2 crosses you think he would have had the career he has ?

It's fine to have a different opinion on a player but you need to articulate why a lot better than picking out stats which in isolation are meaningless.

As said I'm not convinced myself but that's nothing to do with his statistics as I think he used to be a cracking player and on his previous form I doubt Burnley has had a better player in a long long time. My reservations are about how good he is now and will be in the next 3 years - as wingers / players like Lennon rarely get better with age and also find it much more difficult to move to a different position as they lose their pace. Lennon does not seem to have the attributes to move into a deeper role in midfield, or drop into a no 10 role, or even move to fullback like Valencia or Ashley Young.

All that said - what do I know compared to SD ?!!! If he thinks he is still good enough then he very probably is

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:08 pm

am going to lean in on the no thank you side, think he is past his sell by date for the money that will be required including wages, but as always if SD wants him then will be cheering him on and hoping to be proven massively wrong.

ChorltonCharlie · Post by **ChorltonCharlie** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:17 pm

Very rarely even read this forum anymore, and haven't posted for a couple of years, but couldn't help myself reading this thread.

First of all, peoples perception of what happens in football is actually a lot different to what does happen. In this case good wingers don't dribble past full backs time and time again and plant fantastic crosses onto the head of an attacker. Most wingers only make a handful of crosses per game, and even then most don't find a target, and therefore even fewer lead to a goal.

Whilst not a winger, Trippier is a great example of this. Undoubted quality and a key player in our 2013/14 promotion. Of his 203 crosses that season only 65 found a target, which shows that even a high score for crosses is likely to be ~30%. So Lennon's stats aren't actually that bad over his career, especially as it's not something he's renowned for.

A player like Lennon also affects the game in more ways than our current wingers. His skillset means that teams would have to defend differently which opens up oppurtunities for other players.

That said, when you do some delving into Lennon's stats, it does paint the picture of a player well past his sell by date. There's an obvious decline from around 2011 and it would worry me that he's someone who might have an initial impact and then disappear into oblivion within 6 months.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:25 pm

ChorltonCharlie wrote:Very rarely even read this forum anymore, and haven't posted for a couple of years, but couldn't help myself reading this thread.

First of all, peoples perception of what happens in football is actually a lot different to what does happen. In this case good wingers don't dribble past full backs time and time again and plant fantastic crosses onto the head of an attacker. Most wingers only make a handful of crosses per game, and even then most don't find a target, and therefore even fewer lead to a goal.

Whilst not a winger, Trippier is a great example of this. Undoubted quality and a key player in our 2013/14 promotion. Of his 203 crosses that season only 65 found a target, which shows that even a high score for crosses is likely to be ~30%. So Lennon's stats aren't actually that bad over his career, especially as it's not something he's renowned for.

A player like Lennon also affects the game in more ways than our current wingers. His skillset means that teams would have to defend differently which opens up oppurtunities for other players.

That said, when you do some delving into Lennon's stats, it does paint the picture of a player well past his sell by date. There's an obvious decline from around 2011 and it would worry me that he's someone who might have an initial impact and then disappear into oblivion within 6 months.

Agree with this 100% up to the last paragraph. And actually, I understand the concern raised in the last paragraph too - but I'd argue that if Dyche has identified him as a potential target, then that's enough. The vacancy for a pacey, direct winger who gets into goalscoring positions (he gets between 3 and 5 a season across his career, which is OK if not spectacular) but more importantly breaks the line in order to create space and opportunity for others is obvious. Nkoudou might be the long term answer to this vacancy, but we could also do with an immediate boost to ensure that this season doesn't fizzle out disappointingly. Dyche has identified Lennon as the potential answer to this and if we get 18 good months out of him, that'd be decent business.

In some respects, its remarkable that we can be where we are, and have the record in the transfer market over recent seasons that we have and still have , and fans are still questioning the manager's apparent selection of target, even when on paper he delivers virtually everything our supporters have been wanting to see in a wide signing.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:26 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I didn't say the stats are pointless.

Earlier in this thread you said he puts a lot of crosses in, now you're saying he doesn't.

I spent a bit more time breaking it down and realised that actually he doesn't on average and even those he does get over have a low success rate.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:29 pm

Sidney1st wrote:I spent a bit more time breaking it down and realised that actually he doesn't on average and even those he does get over have a low success rate.

Sydney - let me ask you a direct question.

Do you think the manager knows what he's looking at when it comes to stats and due diligence on signings, and do you think his track record in the transfer market suggests he deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one?

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:30 pm

It's fine to have doubts about this given he is not getting in an Everton team who are also crying out for this type of player.
He's going to be on big wages and if we end up giving him a 3 year contract then that is quite a risk.

He's clearly not the player he was - don't think anyone could argue that. But if he was then we would not be even mentioned in the same breath as a player like Lennon.

If we took him on a shorter contract or even a loan deal with an option to make permanent I think vast majority of fans would see this very positively

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:36 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Brilliant players who play in different positions as I pointed out but you've ignored.

Stats for Lennon -
342 appearances, 925 crosses = 2.7 crosses a game on average with a 24% target hit rate overall.

You can toss one off to those stats all you like, but he isn't worth the money to us that it's going to need to get him.

Sidney do you even have an idea of the context of the stats you're bringing to the argument? They undermine your position EVERY TIME.

If he has an average of 2.7 crosses per game, then this season, that would make him the PL player with the highest number of crosses per game.

Currently, Robbie Brady is top with 2.6 crosses per game. Next is Cabaye with 1.9, then Gross at Brighton with 1.9 also. Then we have Holebas, De Bruyne and Shaqiri on 1.7 crosses per game.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:42 pm

claretspice wrote:Sydney - let me ask you a direct question.

Do you think the manager knows what he's looking at when it comes to stats and due diligence on signings, and do you think his track record in the transfer market suggests he deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one?

Yes Dyche will get the benefit and I made a comment a bit further up that he could well turn out to be a good signing.
If he signed him he'd get fair chance from me and I wouldn't stamp my feet about it, I'm just raising my points/concerns

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:45 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Sidney do you even have an idea of the context of the stats you're bringing to the argument? They undermine your position EVERY TIME.

If he has an average of 2.7 crosses per game, then this season, that would make him the PL player with the highest number of crosses per game.

Currently, Robbie Brady is top with 2.6 crosses per game. Next is Cabaye with 1.9, then Gross at Brighton with 1.9 also. Then we have Holebas, De Bruyne and Shaqiri on 1.7 crosses per game.

10 crosses this season with a 10% success rate.

Like I said it's an average based over his career in the top flight, so no the stats haven't undermined my position, it's you that's trying to undermine me to suit your little agenda against me.