"Arm teachers" says Trump

[Wile E Coyote]

No Ontario, one's a first name, the other is a surname

[Imploding Turtle]

They are having a go at Sid because this board has now become so polarised that the battle lines are now firmly and irrevocably entrenched. enemies have been labelled and no matter what is posted there is a battle. Poster A posts, poster B hits back, , no attempt is made to read the actual content.

If one of the usual suspects doesn't contribute to this particular war, someone tries to goad him into posting so the battle can continue. Perfect example this little gem post #17:-

"Claretandy,

Go on, what are your views on the right to bear arms, whether for self defence or sport?"

No doubt someone will say that was a genuine attempt to get someone's point of view, I don't think so somehow.

You're literally criticising someone for goading them away from trolling and into expressing their genuine opinion. Think about that.

[Dejavu]

I was actually quite encouraged by his comments the other day but it appears his great idea on gun control, is to turn Geography teachers into Dirty Harry!!

[Caernarfon_Claret]

With mention of The NRA did someone have to prise open Charlton Heston's fingers to remove a firearm when he died?

[Jeffbfc]

All they need to do is build walls around all schools.
That's the answer.

[gtclaret]

More idiocy. Sidearms or assault files ?

In all the years that I have been involved in schools, I've never met a teacher without arms. We did have a teacher with a wooden leg though

[lucs86]

The laughable thing about the right to bear arms is that if the government does go 'rogue' they think some half ar5ed militia with hunting rifles is going to be effective against the worlds military super power.

I think it's a crazy situation that the country's population is so heavily armed and I think it's a wildly unnecessarily dangerous situation for their citizens to choose to live in.

But 'going rogue' is a bigger problem for the US government than any other first world government on earth. They've a lot of soldiers and a lot of bombs but if it came to it they couldn't level cities indiscriminately. It's the one developed country where civilians could put up a decent fight in the streets against the army, it could get very middle East.

However minimal that deterrent is it is definitely real. The idea (in a democratic system, however flawed) is stupid but it's not delusional.

[Lancasterclaret]

It is delusional

Name one successful defense in the modern age of enthusiastic militia versus a trained military.

[Sidney1st]

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018 ... igned.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sheriff's deputy who was on duty at the school didn't go inside to stop the shooter and has now quit his job.

A trained professional didn't do his best to stop it but they think the teachers can do it if they've got access to guns....

http://metro.co.uk/2018/02/23/schools-a ... d-7335856/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Socrates]

Has anyone even thought to ask teachers whether they want to carry guns?

Thinking of the type of teachers you see in schools, I doubt the possibility of shoot out’s was one of the things that attracted them to the job.

So are we saying they make it mandatory for teachers to carry? Do you know how much teachers get paid in the US? There’s not a lot of danger money in that salary.

[Lancasterclaret]

"Now kevin might be **** hot at Call of Duty Ladies and Gentlemen, but $15 an hour there isn't a lot of wiggle room to be a hero"

[lucs86]

It is delusional

Name one successful defense in the modern age of enthusiastic militia versus a trained military.

That's irrelevant as America's civilian population is unique in how armed and gun crazy they are and how seriously they take the issue on a political level. For the US government to 'go rogue' and have the army on the streets on a large scale against civilians, the losses would be enormous and it's a fight they wouldn't pick. It's why on a basic level the 'holding government to account' argument stands up. Put the army on the streets in a European country and it's over in no time comparatively.

The real, daily negative effect of all those guns massively outweighs the theoretical strategic advantage that it gives the population as a whole, especially in a democracy where you should be better placed to hold the government to account without the threat of violence. But it's not delusion, if well organised the American people have the firepower to overthrow their government by force.

I think it's crazy, unnecessary and dangerous, I think the NRA are culpable in every mass shooting, but it's why they'll not give up their guns for a long time yet.

[Socrates]

The real, daily negative effect of all those guns massively outweighs the theoretical strategic advantage that it gives the population as a whole, especially in a democracy where you should be better placed to hold the government to account without the threat of violence. But it's not delusion, if well organised the American people have the firepower to overthrow their government by force.

Although batsh*t mental, maybe this argument had merit once.

But in the 21st century, with drone technology, it’s redundant and is delusional.

[dsr]

Has anyone even thought to ask teachers whether they want to carry guns?

Thinking of the type of teachers you see in schools, I doubt the possibility of shoot out’s was one of the things that attracted them to the job.

So are we saying they make it mandatory for teachers to carry? Do you know how much teachers get paid in the US? There’s not a lot of danger money in that salary.

The suggestion is that a top-of-the-head number of about 20% of teachers with military or other arms training could be armed. This is categorically not the same thing as making it compulsory for all teachers to be armed.

[Lancasterclaret]

That's irrelevant as America's civilian population is unique in how armed and gun crazy they are and how seriously they take the issue on a political level. For the US government to 'go rogue' and have the army on the streets on a large scale against civilians, the losses would be enormous and it's a fight they wouldn't pick. It's why on a basic level the 'holding government to account' argument stands up. Put the army on the streets in a European country and it's over in no time comparatively.

How long do you think your average US Citizen, huddling behind his barricade with his AR-15 in his hands is going to hold?

I'll paint the scenario for you.

A real time satellite in space pinpoints the Militias position, taking the sort of photographs that most of us can only dream of.

Probably a drone comes over and confirms the positions of the Militia.

Then they would be drone strike and your average US citizen is sitting in rubble, with the blood of his neighbour splashed all over him, and most of remaining carcass of another one hanging from the top of the barricade.

Then you hear the shouts of "incoming" (if anyone is actually not flat out running for their lives at this stage) and the artillery (laser guided rounds so it doesn't miss) starts to land.

Assuming he's still holding firm when the first M1 Abrahams appears, and he then finds his AR-15 can't even scratch it.

At what stage do you think he's going to go "Yeah, take that US Government?".

Its delusional argument, based on an era of frontiersmen and indians and about as relevant for the 21st century as Blackburn Rovers are.

[Sidney1st]

The film, Red Dawn, proves the yanks can put up a fight against an invading army

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah, I think most of the AR-15 toting people probably have it as their favourite film.

[dsr]

How long do you think your average US Citizen, huddling behind his barricade with his AR-15 in his hands is going to hold?

I'll paint the scenario for you.

...

That hypothetical scenario certainly wouldn't work. The US ad hoc militia couldn't take on any army in pitched battle, whether their own army or someone else's.

But there are other hypothetical scenarios, more based on the Afghan defence against Russia and then the USA and allies, that do work to some extent if the will to resist is there. Guerilla tactics - the enemy don't know you have a gun until you use it; you aren't standing there in full view waiting for them. If five million people work on a "take one with you" principle, they make a fair old dent in an invading army.

But I agree, it's pie in the sky. It's not a realistic justification for the current gun laws.

What exactly does the constitution say? I know it involves the right to bear arms, but does it say the right to bear any and every sort of arms? If they can restrict a private citizen from owning a Scud missile, for example, then can they in theory restrict them from any sort automatic weaponry or machine guns?

[Lancasterclaret]

You take away Western citizens away from their creature comforts and see how long they last Dsr!

But yeah, its not a justification, or even the illusion of one.

Apologies to Lucs86, I think we all agree that the Yanks are borderline mental about this and its just something in which we in the UK just cannot get our head around.

[Sidney1st]

What exactly does the constitution say? I know it involves the right to bear arms, but does it say the right to bear any and every sort of arms? If they can restrict a private citizen from owning a Scud missile, for example, then can they in theory restrict them from any sort automatic weaponry or machine guns?

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

[Falcon]

At this point we all just need to look over at America, shake our heads, and move on with our lives. They're utterly mental, but they're happy to be utterly mental, so leave them be.

[Lancasterclaret]

He's just said "Our schools are gun free places, and that makes them very dangerous"

He's off his f**king rocker.

[UpTheBeehole]

The Second Amendment was adopted in 1791, when the population of the 13 United States was fewer than 4m people.

New York had a population of 33,131, and Salem was the 7th largest 'city' with 7,921 residents.

In other words, it has nothing to do with the modern world, and should be overturned.

[clarethead]

It'll never happen UTB. The NRA own the purse strings of the politicians and it'll never even get to the House. I'm sure you've read about the verbal vitriol spouted by the NRA "leader" against anyone even suggesting "gun control" and that is the same opinion as those that elected Trump. To be honest, my opinion on Trump is irrelevant, but all of his past sins (or most of them anyway) would be wiped away if he could somehow rewrite that amendment to be more in line with today's society. It's nuts that the constitution and it's amendments, that were written to protect folk's liberty and freedoms 200 or so years ago, can be used and twisted in such a way as to continue to line the pockets of the NRA and all other politicians. It is so sad that this is the 13th (I think) school shooting this year and we aren't out of February yet. This is the kids we are talking about - THE INNOCENTS!

[bluelabrador16]

[Spijed]

And what type of gun are they going to give the teacher?

[Greenmile]

Has anyone even thought to ask teachers whether they want to carry guns?

Thinking of the type of teachers you see in schools, I doubt the possibility of shoot out’s was one of the things that attracted them to the job.

So are we saying they make it mandatory for teachers to carry? Do you know how much teachers get paid in the US? There’s not a lot of danger money in that salary.

It’s not just carrying the guns, either. It’s being willing to use them and taking the risk of killing innocents in the crossfire, as well as becoming a target for any incoming SWAT teams, who are unlikely to be able to differentiate between a school shooter carrying a gun, and a teacher carrying a gun.

Edit, not to mention that any nutter school kid now doesn’t even need to obtain their own gun - they can just steal their teacher’s.

[morpheus2]

Probably a good idea on the whole, additionally teachers should perhaps be armed with grenades, more likely to get the perpetrator as it has a good blast radius.

[dsr]

It’s not just carrying the guns, either. It’s being willing to use them and taking the risk of killing innocents in the crossfire, as well as becoming a target for any incoming SWAT teams, who are unlikely to be able to differentiate between a school shooter carrying a gun, and a teacher carrying a gun.

Edit, not to mention that any nutter school kid now doesn’t even need to obtain their own gun - they can just steal their teacher’s.

I doubt that the idea is to keep the gun in the teacher's drawer. It'll be securely holstered.

As for the teacher being unwilling to use the gun, the unwilling teachers won't have them. Trump specifically said it would be (if it ever happens) ex-military types. They don't become bumbling incompetents just because they have discharge papers.

[Lancasterclaret]

So where would they keep them "securely" but also accessible enough to get to for use in an emergency?

And surely the ammo would have to be in another safe place as well?

[SammyBoy]

I doubt that the idea is to keep the gun in the teacher's drawer. It'll be securely holstered.

As for the teacher being unwilling to use the gun, the unwilling teachers won't have them. Trump specifically said it would be (if it ever happens) ex-military types. They don't become bumbling incompetents just because they have discharge papers.

Uncompromising ex-military teachers, armed with guns and with potential PTSD surrounded by a bunch of mouthy little kids sounds like trouble already.

[dsr]

So where would they keep them "securely" but also accessible enough to get to for use in an emergency?

And surely the ammo would have to be in another safe place as well?

With them, but not in a place where their pocket could be picked. Yes, I know, there'd be the risk of a young hooligan clouting them with a baseball bat and frisking them when unconscious. Well, it wasn't my suggestion - I'm just playing devil's advocate against those who think that everything about the plan is lunatic in all respects.

[Lancasterclaret]

fair enough, but that suggests that you don't think its a lunatic idea.

Which it, totally, utterly, is.

[dsr]

fair enough, but that suggests that you don't think its a lunatic idea.

Which it, totally, utterly, is.

It's a lunatic situation. But there is no doubt at all that if there is a lunatic in the school with a gun, it is a good idea for a competent good guy to have a gun. After all when the police arrive at the school and the lunatic is still shooting, they don't disarm before going in.

On balance it's probably a bad idea - but it's not true to say that in every aspect it's a bad idea. It has good points.

[MT03ALG]

Lesson preparation to include checking amount of ammunition, making sure weapon is working, etc. Trump is insane....

[Greenmile]

I doubt that the idea is to keep the gun in the teacher's drawer. It'll be securely holstered.

As for the teacher being unwilling to use the gun, the unwilling teachers won't have them. Trump specifically said it would be (if it ever happens) ex-military types. They don't become bumbling incompetents just because they have discharge papers.

So instead of taking a gun to school, the shooter just takes a knife (or a scalpel from their biology lesson) puts it to the throat of one of their classmates, and demands the gun from their teacher.

[Greenmile]

It's a lunatic situation. But there is no doubt at all that if there is a lunatic in the school with a gun, it is a good idea for a competent good guy to have a gun. After all when the police arrive at the school and the lunatic is still shooting, they don't disarm before going in.

On balance it's probably a bad idea - but it's not true to say that in every aspect it's a bad idea. It has good points.

But they are likely to shoot anyone else who has a gun and isn’t a police officer. You’d need a uniform for the armed teachers, which just lets the shooter know who to kill first.

Also, the “good guy with a gun” argument has been pretty thoroughly debunked. Life is not the same as Hollywood (even life in Hollywood)

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/evd4 ... y-debunked" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/i ... ncna821976" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trump wants 20% of teachers arming. I’m not that sure there’s that many hardened vets turned educators out there, to be honest

It really is a bad idea in every respect.

[Raz]

You don't get every respect or how protocols work. They will have a communication protocol set up like they have with air marshals on airplanes..

[Inchy]

Although the NRA hold the purse strings it’s worth remembering that the tobacco industry also once owned the purse strings.

Things can change, but they won’t change unless the mindset of a large number of Americans shifts

[Greenmile]

You don't get every respect or how protocols work. They will have a communication protocol set up like they have with air marshals on airplanes..

Could you expand on how this would work, please?

[Sidney1st]

Half a dozen or so large companies are cutting their ties with NRA and it's members.
Members used to get various discounts but not anymore.

Could this last shooting finally be the turning point?

[Caballo]

However minimal that deterrent is it is definitely real. The idea (in a democratic system, however flawed) is stupid but it's not delusional.

Errrrrrrr, No!!! It's batshit mental.

[Imploding Turtle]

Imagine being the father of a child who survived this massacre and then doing this because you're such a Trump fan?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-flori ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FactualFrank]

Trump unveils approved new design for US schools.

[fidelcastro]

He's now claiming he'd have entered the building personally... even if he was unarmed!

Anyone who admires this clown, hang your head in shame!

[dsr]

But they are likely to shoot anyone else who has a gun and isn’t a police officer. You’d need a uniform for the armed teachers, which just lets the shooter know who to kill first.

Also, the “good guy with a gun” argument has been pretty thoroughly debunked. Life is not the same as Hollywood (even life in Hollywood)

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/evd4 ... y-debunked" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/i ... ncna821976" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trump wants 20% of teachers arming. I’m not that sure there’s that many hardened vets turned educators out there, to be honest

It really is a bad idea in every respect.

Your conclusion may be right, but not on those facts.

Firstly, the police will shoot anyone who's waving a gun about. They won't shoot someone who has it in his pocket, or is lying on it, or is standing there with his hands up saying "there's the baddy, I've kllled him".

Secondly, neither of your articles debunk the "good guy with the gun" theory. The first link goes into great depth to prove that states where obtaining "concealed carry" licences is easy, have more crime than states where it's hard. How they can justify that that means there's no point having a good guy with a gun standing round, I have no idea. The thought that more criminals carry guns in states where it's easier to get guns, would seem a more likely theory to me.

The second article is about how very very hard it is to shoot someone, both psychologically and practically. He reckons it takes many many weeks of basic training before you can expect to be able to shoot someone. Makes you wonder how the amateur hunters ever kill a deer, doesn't it?

I'd certainly agree that there won't be 20% of teachers with ex-service or professional gun training.

I think a lot of people (not you specifically) reckon it's a bad idea first and foremost because it's Trump's idea and Trump can't have good ideas. Well, no-one has bad ideas all the time. Bear in mind at least that Trump is talking about restricting access to guns - he wants to have more restrictive gun laws than Obama had.

[Lancasterclaret]

To be fair, the police in the US only shoot black people generally so most teachers with guns should be safe enough.

And they stay outside when the shooter goes in as well, so the teacher will have plenty of time to blow the bad guy away.

[Socrates]

There has been an increase in shark attacks generally.

Should we suggest all bathers are given a great white when they enter the sea?

[Sidney1st]

There has been an increase in shark attacks generally.

Should we suggest all bathers are given a great white when they enter the sea?

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[Rick_Muller]

not my own work, but I like it...

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