What next for Labour?

[Sidney1st]

Since I became interested in politics about 8 years ago people have always theorised about the break up of the Labour Party, even more so since Corbyn was elected leader. It's a broad church and internal conflict has been a theme throughout Labour's existence. Even when there actually was a rival party started, in it's current form it only has 12 seats .. Labour has been through much greater threats to it's existence than what's currently in the news. In fact, I'd wager the people predicting it's break up are just wishful thinkers who are terrified of Labour winning power.

There isn't much to be terrified about, it's the political life cycle in this country for most people.

Labour in followed by them being replaced by Tories and vice versa.
There's never been much of an alternative and most voters are so entrenched with their political views they can't even consider voting for someone else.

[Falcon]

Enough voted for Lib Dems in 2010. Who then profoundly messed up their one big chance at being relevant.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well it wouldn't have made any difference.

The tories would have made sure that they took the blame for everything and Labour joined in as well.

Suits those two parties to be the only big ones.

[SammyBoy]

There isn't much to be terrified about, it's the political life cycle in this country for most people.

Labour in followed by them being replaced by Tories and vice versa.
There's never been much of an alternative and most voters are so entrenched with their political views they can't even consider voting for someone else.

I agree that the UK is largely a two party system, but it's a bit misleading to suggest it's just Tory-Labour-Tory-Labour. As much as it pains me to say it, the Tories are the natural party of government, mainly because England, and especially southern England is inherently conservative. Peddling the status quo is a lot easier than changing things, especially when you're heavily backed by the media and establishment. From my perspective, Labour governments are incredibly hard won, and have often changed the landscape of the country the most (for better or worse dependent on your politics). However, that time in office tends to be short lived and we've had long periods of Tory rule, with consecutive general election wins. Labour's best results came under Blair, who had to completely abandon the left wing of his party to achieve that. I think there are plenty of people out there who genuinely think Labour governments lead to Armageddon, and probably fear a Corbyn one will be worse than any that have gone before.

[Lancasterclaret]

I could cope with Corbynonomics without Brexit to be honest.

With Brexit its another whole level of risk sadly.

[Pstotto]

Punk or Euro pop? Vote now.

[Stayingup]

Simple- Labour start to actually act against the anti-Semites within the party or else everyone will see that Corbyn is merely talking the talk and not backing it up. They can begin by actually expelling Ken Livingstone from the party rather than merely extending his suspension....nothing less than a complete “purge” will do. Right now Labour not just has to clean itself up but it has to be seen to clean itself up; and the second bit is probably more important than the first!

If that doesn’t happen then it will be up to the MPs to stand up and make their views known publicly- by resigning the whip and sitting as independant MPs for the remainder of this parliament or until Corbyn is forced to resign as leader. Good luck to whichever poor bastards then get selected by the constituency Labour parties and are assigned guilt by association- it won’t do career prospects in the “real” world any good at all.

If used properly (i.e. negative campaigning) then this could be used to destroy Labour’s vote; after all- who wants to be thought of, or known for, supporting a party which condones and allows anti-Semitism. Let’s be honest; the historical precedent isn’t the best in that area...

They could also expel Corbyn and revert to being none entities again but respected.

[Colburn_Claret]

But would a new leader be able to control the 3 per cent (300,000 new members) of the Labour vote which are Corbyn fans? They are noisy, committed and, as Steve Smith would put it 'willing to push the line'.

But then I guess the moderate wing of Labour hopes most of them are first time voters who will soon get back to being more interested in beer and sex.

I think Corbyn will have lost a lot more than 300,000 traditional Labour voters.
I'm a Socialist , not a Communist, unlike Corbyn, Momentum and their lackies. Unfortunately the youngsters who voted for him dont really understand the difference. Hooked by soundbites and fanciful promises.
But they'll learn.

[Stayingup]

I could cope with Corbynonomics without Brexit to be honest.

With Brexit its another whole level of risk sadly.

You could cope with Corbynomics? Are you crazy?

[Lancasterclaret]

Yeah, because we'd have a strong economy within the EU.

Its even more economic suicide if its followed by a Corbyn govt. And I hate to say it, as there are going to be some effects of Brexit, then that is very likely, which will just make things worse.

[Stayingup]

We would have a strong economy in the EU. We're in it now have we got a strong economy? The EU commission is a ghastly thing. Thinks only of the Project at all costs. All costs. People or economies. No wonder there is a groundswell in Europe against it.

We will be far better out - in the long term.

Sadly we have worst set of politicians here (and in Europe) that I can ever remember.

[SammyBoy]

I'm a Socialist , not a Communist, unlike Corbyn, Momentum and their lackies.

I must've missed the bit in the Labour manifesto last year where it said all private property was going to be requisitioned by the state, and all forms of opposition suppressed.

[Colburn_Claret]

I must've missed the bit in the Labour manifesto last year where it said all private property was going to be requisitioned by the state, and all forms of opposition suppressed.

Give em time.
Stealth is the only reason they're in power. If they actually came clean on what they believe even they know they wouldnt get elected. But give them power........The 3 day week would seem a picnic.

[SammyBoy]

Give em time.
Stealth is the only reason they're in power. If they actually came clean on what they believe even they know they wouldnt get elected. But give them power........The 3 day week would seem a picnic.

[If it be your will]

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[walter the softy]

Labour in followed by them being replaced by Tories and vice versa.
There's never been much of an alternative and most voters are so entrenched with their political views they can't even consider voting for someone else.

It is not a case of being "entrenched with their political views" for a lot of people, it is knowing that with the first past the post system, any vote for a different party than Labour or Tory in some parts of the country is just throwing the vote away.

[Lancasterclaret]

Thats what I'll effectively be doing next election. Not voting for either the Tories or Labour again as both have good and bad policies but (crucially) for me both have exactly the same policy on Europe.

[RMutt]

The answer is “yes” - a simple Google will find plenty, but the party have rightly dispensed with those individuals.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/the- ... er-1.68097

Yes, I had a Google before I posted. I couldn’t find a great deal apart from a lot of writers who seemed to see critiscm of Israeli policy or support for organisations opposed to Israel as anti semitic. Even the questions that the Jewish Chronicle are asking to be answered in the link don’t point to much evidence of anti semitism in Labour. I know it’s just Wikipedia but there’s not much real evidence here either.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisem ... ed_Kingdom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It’s amazing how many Tories turn up on these threads wanting Labour to sort itself out or choose a better leader etc. etc. It’s gratifying to know that you want the best for Labour even though you appear to despise it.

[Pstotto]

... A pregnancy test.

[Erasmus]

I really don't think there is much antisemitism in the Labour Party. There is, however, a strong anti-Israeli sentiment, and not without good cause. Israel and its supporters constantly try to represent criticism of its policies as being antisemitism. But they are nothing like the same thing and this misrepresentation is just a tactic to cover up the policies of land seizure that Israel has followed since its inception.

[Sidney1st]

It is not a case of being "entrenched with their political views" for a lot of people, it is knowing that with the first past the post system, any vote for a different party than Labour or Tory in some parts of the country is just throwing the vote away.

This is also another problem.
So entrenched that they vote for the same party time and again because they want their vote to count.

Simply vote for the party you want or nothing will ever change.
Failing that don't vote, but then other people get all huffy about the fight for the right to vote etc.

[Sidney1st]

The dark days of 70s socialism, yes.

Oh. Hang on - the three day week was under a Conservative government. Who'd have thought?

I'm not old enough to have been there but wasn't that down to Labour, or communist, led unions?

[Colburn_Claret]

It is, I thought politics was about opinion. I couldn't give a toss wether you agree with me or not, but don't sulk because you don't like my view.

[SammyBoy]

It is, I thought politics was about opinion. I couldn't give a toss wether you agree with me or not, but don't sulk because you don't like my view.

I fully respect your opinion, you just stated it like it was fact.

[Colburn_Claret]

The dark days of 70s socialism, yes.

Oh. Hang on - the three day week was under a Conservative government. Who'd have thought?

During a period when the Unions were still acting as though they ran the country.

I can't stand the Tories.
I also am a big believer in Trade Unionism.
BUT Trade Unions are there to protect Workers Rights, Pay and work conditions. They aren't there to run the country.
IF they have that ambition they should give up the Union and stand for Parliament. Instead they'd rather have their hand up Jeremy's backside and pull the strings.

If you vote Corbyn, you're not electing a Labour government, you're electing the Left Wing of the Trade Union movement. You can't get one without the other whist Corbyn is in charge.

[Sidney1st]

Same with Ed Miliband wasn't it?
In the pockets of the unions.

[SammyBoy]

Same with Ed Miliband wasn't it?
In the pockets of the unions.

At the risk of sounding a bit like you, you could similarly say all political parties are in the pockets of somebody. The Tories for example cow-tow to the media barons and business magnates. Labour do have to consider the wishes of the Unions, given they're such a big source of financial backing, but under Corbyn, Labour has become a much more member led organisation.

[Colburn_Claret]

Labour only became electable when they introduced OMOV.
There is an obvious reason why they weren't before, apart from a brief spell under Wilson.
Youngsters do not understand the problem with Trade Unions having too big an influence on the Labour Party. It's only right that they have a voice in the Party, but it shouldn't be the loudest. There are a lot of moderate Trade Unions and their leaders, but Momentum, who pull Corbyn's string, are very much to the left of the left. They aren't interested in real workers points of view, they tell the workers what is good for them, just as they'd like to tell the country what is good for them.
I for one, will never ever vote Labour while these people are allowed to run the party, and I know many people who feel the same.

[evensteadiereddie]

That'll be Ed Miliband the anti-semitic er, Jewish ex-leader of the Labour Party......

[SammyBoy]

That'll be Ed Miliband the anti-semitic er, Jewish ex-leader of the Labour Party......

The leader of Momentum, John Lansman, is also Jewish as well I believe. Seems strange the leader of the militant movement pulling the strings of Labour would be complicit with widespread anti-Semitism.

[dermotdermot]

Socialists are supposed to be democratic. Corbyn is not a democrat, he is a totalitarian, hell bent on re-shaping the Labour Party into an image of himself. There is no place for anyone who disagrees with him in the shadow cabinet. He pays no heed to official party policy and does and says what he wants, hence failing to campaign for 'remain' during the referendum. Most of his followers were against leaving Europe but stand blindly back while he supports brexit. I find him totally repellent and subversive and will be glad when he's gone, which won't be before too long judging by the way he's flapping around in the houses of parliament at the moment.

[SammyBoy]

Socialists are supposed to be democratic. Corbyn is not a democrat, he is a totalitarian, hell bent on re-shaping the Labour Party into an image of himself. There is no place for anyone who disagrees with him in the shadow cabinet. He pays no heed to official party policy and does and says what he wants, hence failing to campaign for 'remain' during the referendum. Most of his followers were against leaving Europe but stand blindly back while he supports brexit. I find him totally repellent and subversive and will be glad when he's gone, which won't be before too long judging by the way he's flapping around in the houses of parliament at the moment.

He was democratically elected in two landslides?

[Sidney1st]

At the risk of sounding a bit like you, you could similarly say all political parties are in the pockets of somebody. The Tories for example cow-tow to the media barons and business magnates. Labour do have to consider the wishes of the Unions, given they're such a big source of financial backing, but under Corbyn, Labour has become a much more member led organisation.

I'm well aware that the Tories bend over for their rich mates, that's also something that needs stopping but won't happen.

[walter the softy]

This is also another problem.
So entrenched that they vote for the same party time and again because they want their vote to count.

Simply vote for the party you want or nothing will ever change.
Failing that don't vote, but then other people get all huffy about the fight for the right to vote etc.

I am not sure I quite understand what you mean by "entrenched" here Sidney.

It is not because I want my vote to count more than someone else's, it is because I want it to count equally. If I wanted to vote, say, Lib Dem in Pendle, there is no chance that the MP will get in. This would be fine in itself as the people in Pendle would get their chosen MP in parliament. No problem with that at all. The problem is that this vote for the Lib Dems is not reflected at all on the national level as a percentage. So, if I vote for the party I want in Pendle, quite literally nothing will change as this is not represented at national level.

I write this as someone who can not stand UKIP for example but think they should be represented fairly in parliament according to the percentage of their vote as long as they are staying within the laws of the country.

[SammyBoy]

I write this as someone who can not stand UKIP for example but think they should be represented fairly in parliament according to the percentage of their vote as long as they are staying within the laws of the country.

As somebody who also utterly loathes UKIP, it's ironic that they are one of the best examples of the need for PR.

[AndrewJB]

AndrewJB is looking forward to Corbyn foreign policy. I can see why.

What I would ask though is whether his policies will stop people hating the West as much, whether those countries will become less dangerous (e.g. ceasing nuclear development), whether countries will feel less emboldened or incentivised to confront Israel, whether they would damage our friendship with the US, whether they lead to Russia having less pervasive power and whether we can maintain our balance of power in the Middle East and Eastern Europe compared to Russia.

I feel the answer is no to all of the above.

That it would risk elevating Russia to a new level of influence, ditto Russia’s allies in Iran, Yemen and Syria, and would make the world including Britain a far, far more dangerous place. Yes it would be nice for the world to be more peaceful, but Earth is the real world, not the one Jeremy inhabits.

I can see why many feel we are throwing the dice needlessly with Brexit, but by heck we would be throwing them more by voting JC in.

Read the Corbyn quote from my post...

[If it be your will]

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[Sidney1st]

It's completely off topic, but come on! The 3 day week was nearly 4 years into a Conservative government, yet it's still Labour's fault??

Who led the unions was part of my question.
If you don't know or won't answer then that's fine, but I did give one of two options.

Feel free to add another option if there is one..

[If it be your will]

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[Colburn_Claret]

If you think the German nation, was totally committed to the mass anhialation of the Jewish race, you'd be wrong.
It only takes a few people in the right positions, and enough sheep to swallow the tripe, to move a nation.
Momentum having 32,000 members is irrelevant. Corbyn only stood as an after thought. Even they didnt think he had a chance. How many Tories took up the oprion of voting for him, at the princely sum of a quid was it? How many students were stirred up, just as the sheep were in Germany.
We, myself included, should be ashamed that we let these pillocks in the back door. There are'nt enough characters, with enough strength or power, on the right of the party, to remove them, because as has been shown they don't suffer anyone who isn't in total agrrement with them.
it could take a generation to remove them, as it did in the 70's, and all the while the working class man has to suffer the Tories.

[AndrewJB]

Socialists are supposed to be democratic. Corbyn is not a democrat, he is a totalitarian, hell bent on re-shaping the Labour Party into an image of himself. There is no place for anyone who disagrees with him in the shadow cabinet. He pays no heed to official party policy and does and says what he wants, hence failing to campaign for 'remain' during the referendum. Most of his followers were against leaving Europe but stand blindly back while he supports brexit. I find him totally repellent and subversive and will be glad when he's gone, which won't be before too long judging by the way he's flapping around in the houses of parliament at the moment.

Corbyn is very much a believer in democracy. Why else would he encourage mass participation, open up the spread of ideas from party members, use questions sent in by the public at PMQs, Look at the evidence. In all of his many years as a backbencher where does he display the ego and ambition to achieve power whatever the cost? Which of his oft stated principles has he cast aside in his pursuit of power? Why did he wait this long? Where in the past has he said democracy is bad? Even Churchill publicly brought up democracy's failings. So no. What you've said has no basis in reality.

Look at his first shadow cabinet. Full of people who never wanted him as leader of the party, and went on to use their positions to undermine him. As for the referendum, he very clearly set out Labour's argument in this speech: https://labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-n ... on-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - not a full throated roar of approval for the EU, but an honest appraisal of the situation (what would you rather have?). His campaigning during the referendum could be summed up by this quote from the New Statesman: "Ahead of the vote, Corbyn appeared on national television for a one-on-one interview, after having made 123 public appearances, including 60 in 22 days, which took place all over the country, and often in areas with strong Labour support. Eagle praised him at the time for, “pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired”"

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... byn-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lancasterclaret]

but under Corbyn, Labour has become a much more member led organisation.

Unless Corbyn disagrees with the majority of its members though.

Nukes and Europe are only the two most obvious examples, and he's not going to be changing his mind on them any time soon.

We've already seen that he votes with what he wants when its against Labour policy on nukes, which does make a complete mockery of it being "a much more member led organisation"

[UpTheBeehole]

EVERYONE accusing Jeremy Corbyn of condoning anti-semitism has always been strongly opposed to prejudice in all its forms, they have confirmed.

Rival politicians, right-wing columnists and Tory voters are definitely not just trying to undermine a Labour leader who is normally too dull to pin any proper scandal on.

Daily Mail columnist Nathan Muir said: “No one is more committed than me to stamping out the vile disease of anti-semitism. I’ve seen Schindler’s List twice.

“Racism sickens me. Admittedly last week I wrote an article entitled ‘Is dear old Blighty about to become a Muslim cesspit?’ but that’s different because I’m criticising a religion.”

Tory MP Donna Sheridan said: “The evidence against Corbyn is overwhelming. He didn’t look at a Facebook thing properly and there are some anti-Israel nutters in the Labour party, which anyone can join with no real checks.

“If that doesn’t make him a card-carrying Nazi no different to SS leader Heinrich Himmler I don’t know what does. I’m surprised the brownshirted ******* hasn’t invaded Poland.

“I refuse to stand by and do nothing. I’ll be giving fact-free interviews on Channel 4 News every night until this dangerous man is no longer a threat to Jews and the Conservative party.”

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/ ... 0327146468

[SammyBoy]

Unless Corbyn disagrees with the majority of its members though.

Nukes and Europe are only the two most obvious examples, and he's not going to be changing his mind on them any time soon.

We've already seen that he votes with what he wants when its against Labour policy on nukes, which does make a complete mockery of it being "a much more member led organisation"

I said a much more member led organisation, not entirely member led, that'd be unprecedented. There are numerous examples of where Labour under Corbyn has listened to its supporters and pushed key issues up the agenda. Regarding Brexit, haven't Labour honoured their manifesto pledge to leave the single market but stay in a customs union, isn't that what people voted for last year? I think members have much more of a say in the current Labour set up than they ever did under Blair.

[Lancasterclaret]

Anybody else still think its a smear campaign?

[If it be your will]

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[AndrewJB]

Anybody else still think its a smear campaign?

I think it's being milked as one. Corbyn isn't a racist or anti-semitic, and I don't believe the Labour Party contains many people who are. To put it into context, I'd wager there are more anti-semites within the Tory ranks than there are among Labour, not to mention racism in general.

http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/exc ... interview/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Clarets4me]

Now, another resignation from the people's party, Labour's " Chair of Disputes Panel " , Christine Shawcross, a Committee member of " Momentum ", has resigned, only from that post mind you, following her calling for the reinstatement of Alan Bull, a Labour activist who re-tweeted an article entitled, "The International Red Cross confirms the Holocaust of 6 million Jews is a hoax " .....

She has stubbornly refused to resign from Labour's ruling National Executive Council, and is still a Labour Member, and serving on " Momentum's " Committee ! Labour MP's John Woodcock and John Mann have called for her expulsion from the Party, and internal Party sources, have described the Labour party procedures to report Anti-Semitic abuse as " so complex and toxic " that the number of outstanding complaints could well number over 2,000 !!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43578225

But obviously, it's just a smear campaign !!

[Lancasterclaret]

I assumed andy and ITBYW had seen the latest resignation when I made my post but clearly not.

Anybody else think that this is just a smear campaign?

[RMutt]

It is possible that in their opposition to Israeli policy some Labour members have drifted towards a position that assumes all Jewish people are part of a pro Israel conspiracy. For some this leads to anti semitism. Alan Bull may be one such. I am sure he would deny it. The difficulty for Labour is that these ( rare) cases are inevitably wrapped in personality clashes that can make getting to the bottom of the issue not as straightforward as it might, on the face of it, seem. It is further complicated by the fact that anti semitism and anti Israeli policy appear to be the same thing to some members of the community and Labour then has to find a path between allowing legitimate criticism of Israel and dealing with the occasional anti-Semite. I still think this whole issue is being stirred up as a campaign against Corbyn with the usual suspects, once again, in the thick of it.