O/T Madeleine McCann

[Rick_Muller]

To those of you calling for this investigation to be ended....

If your relatives went on holiday to the same place and your child / grand child went missing, I am pretty sure you would be shouting "why wasn't this investigated to the fullest last time?"

If I went there, I would be a responsible parent and not leave my child drugged and alone in the room while I went out to dinner - therefore minimising the risk and as such not allowing my child to go missing. I do that as a matter of course anyway, because whilst my children are in my care, they're exactly that - "in my care".

[UpTheBeehole]

In my experience of holidaying in similar apartment complexes, there'd be at least one guard doing the rounds at night.

If I was to try and abduct a child, I wouldn't be blindly targeting a busy apartment complex with on-site restaurant between the hours of 9 and 10pm, on the off-chance that some doctors had drugged their children and gone for some food with their mates.

[Svenster]

I'm always very suspicious of conspiracy theories and there's nothing I've read so far that I buy into which makes the McCann's guilty of anything other than poor parenting. Some people are talking like it's an establishment cover up, the McCanns are a couple of middle class Doctors, I doubt they have sufficient reach or influence to get British law enforcement to hush this one up.

...But if you get your information from the national daily papers then that is the obvious conclusion. Dig a little deeper and you'll find a wealth of detail you don't get from the popular press. You might see things a little differently.

[TVC15]

I didn't say it was trivial.

Anyone else would've potentially lost custody of their other kids, because leaving all your kids drugged up in a hotel room whilst the parents go out is actually child neglect, that was my point which you've missed.

If they'd been with their kids then no one could've stolen one of them...

I didn’t miss your point at all but putting it in brackets and saying apart from the fact they lost their child forever kind of suggests that this is not enough of a punishment.

I think we all know - and them better than anyone - that if they had not left her they could not have been stolen. Stating the bleeding obvious does not (in my view) mean they deserve to have her stolen.

I agree they should / could have been prosecuted but I can also empathise with the humane view I assume that the authorities took that losing their daughter was enough - i’m sure the authorities would have discussed prosecuting them.

[TVC15]

In my experience of holidaying in similar apartment complexes, there'd be at least one guard doing the rounds at night.

If I was to try and abduct a child, I wouldn't be blindly targeting a busy apartment complex with on-site restaurant between the hours of 9 and 10pm, on the off-chance that some doctors had drugged their children and gone for some food with their mates.

You are now making some of your own assumptions about what happened on the night of the abduction.
I have been to Portugal lots of times and have never seen a complex with a guard on duty.

As said I don’t know what happened on the night - but your conspiracy theory seems a lot more far fetched to what the authorities are saying happened.

[UpTheBeehole]

What do the authorities say happened?

[TVC15]

They say she was abducted - pretty simple.

If they believed in your conspiracy theory that it was the parents then they would have charged the MCCanns.

I think that’s how the law works

[UpTheBeehole]

They don't say she was abducted at all.

The Ministerio Publico released a Prosecutors report which stated:

No element of proof whatsoever was found which allows us to form any lucid, sensible, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances.

[TVC15]

I was talking about the British authorities not the clueless Portuguese police.

The Portuguese authorities are not saying your far fetched conspiracy theory happened either.

Maybe it was aliens

[claret59]

There is considerable comment on her of the parents 'going out to dinner' as though they were a car drive away and sitting down to a five course meal. They were still within the complex and within sight of their room and had supposedly checked it previously. They were among their friends who have seemingly supported their version of events.
There has been all sorts of nonsense posted as 'facts' over the years. As far as I can make out they are family orientated and have paid a very heavy price for what would appear to be a set of awful circumstances coming together of which a serious indiscretion by the parents has had unforeseen consequences.

The truth of what happened may never be realised but the UK police investigation does not include any substantial allegations of criminality by the McCanns. In circumstances such as these you would expect an arrest if there were suspicions as to their involvement.

[blackburnturfite]

It's still all theoretical about Ben Needham isn't it?
They've got a pretty good idea, but it's never been confirmed because their main suspect is dead.

Completely different to the McCanns though, who left their children in a room alone whilst they went out, after they'd given them something to help them sleep.

Sad as it is, there will be many on this message board who have gone through this experience, left in their chalets at Butlins/Pontins etc, while the parents had a hour+ to themselves, asking for a Patrol of complete strangers to listen for anything unusual through the chalet door and possessing a master key, perhaps a lesson to some people. Horrendous thing to carry for the rest of your life!!

[Foshiznik]

How can people call theories on what might have happened to her (particular claiming the family were involved) conspiracies when there isn't an officially agreed-definitive explanation?

Surely that makes all theories, such as abduction, murder, etc. conspiracies too?

[TomtheClaret]

No more money or police required.
Get them on Jeremy Kyle. He will shout at them, get them to take a lie detector test. And hey presto. We will know.

[Right_winger]

I'm always very suspicious of conspiracy theories and there's nothing I've read so far that I buy into which makes the McCann's guilty of anything other than poor parenting. Some people are talking like it's an establishment cover up the McCanns are a couple of middle class Doctors, I doubt they have sufficient reach or influence to get British law enforcement to hush this one up.

The highlighted section is exactly what it is. The couple are believed to be linked with Gordon Brown.

[SammyBoy]

The highlighted section is exactly what it is. The couple are believed to be linked with Gordon Brown.

How do they have links to GB, do you mean from before their daughter disappeared?

[KRBFC]

I haven't followed the case deeply but wasn't Madeleine's blood found in the boot of the parents' car?

[Rileybobs]

Seems like most of the posters on here are more concerned about the parents being punished for their neglectful act than the innocent girl being found.

[dsr]

I haven't followed the case deeply but wasn't Madeleine's blood found in the boot of the parents' car?

It was the hire car which they hired 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance. The theory was that having found a perfect hiding place for the body which the police couldn't find for 25 days, they went back and moved the body in the back of the car, leaving a tiny tiny tiny trace of DNA in the boot - too small a trace to be identified by conventional DNA testing - and moved the body to another perfect hiding place.

[JohnMac]

Probably one of the few cases in history where the public had lots of sympathy to begin with but as time moved on the majority have become shall we say, cynical.

I wonder how much this has cost the Taxpayer to date and if the same amount of funding would have been granted to a young council estate couple.

I don't know if the truth will ever come out but why child negligence charges weren't brought against the McCann's is still a surprise. They did after all leave the children unsupervised. I'm not expressing moral judgement either because I'm sure they are not alone, the outcome was just different to many others.

Like someone else stated though, if it was your child...

[UpTheBeehole]

If it was my child, I wouldn't have sedated them and gone out for a meal.

[Rick_Muller]

There is considerable comment on her of the parents 'going out to dinner' as though they were a car drive away and sitting down to a five course meal. They were still within the complex and within sight of their room and had supposedly checked it previously. They were among their friends who have seemingly supported their version of events.
There has been all sorts of nonsense posted as 'facts' over the years. As far as I can make out they are family orientated and have paid a very heavy price for what would appear to be a set of awful circumstances coming together of which a serious indiscretion by the parents has had unforeseen consequences.

The truth of what happened may never be realised but the UK police investigation does not include any substantial allegations of criminality by the McCanns. In circumstances such as these you would expect an arrest if there were suspicions as to their involvement.

maddie2_09_map.jpg (92.33 KiB) Viewed 2260 times

They could not see their room at all. They had a 75 yard walk to the apartment. These are actual facts.

[dsr]

If it was my child, I wouldn't have sedated them and gone out for a meal.

I don't think there was any evidence that the children were sedated, and if they were, any suggestion that Madeleine died of an overdose is clearly crackers.

[houseboy]

If the McCanns had anything to do with her disappearance why would they keep pushing for more and more police investigations when they would seem to have been ruled out of it? That wouldn't make sense if they were actually guilty.

A kind of reverse psychology or devils advocacy sort of situation possibly. If they know what happened and they are sure she will not be found (especially if she's dead) then continually pushing for further investigation would be the perfect way to deflect blame.

[TVC15]

A kind of reverse psychology or devils advocacy sort of situation possibly. If they know what happened and they are sure she will not be found (especially if she's dead) then continually pushing for further investigation would be the perfect way to deflect blame.

You should send that post to Ridley Scott or John Grisham - you might get royalties

[taio]

The are two or three references to the parents drugging/sedating their children. Where has this come from and is it proven?

[houseboy]

They say she was abducted - pretty simple.

If they believed in your conspiracy theory that it was the parents then they would have charged the MCCanns.

I think that’s how the law works

What the authorities 'think' and what they can 'prove' are two different things. The law states that someone cannot be charged on a 'belief', there has to be an element of proof. Therefore they weren't charged. Lack of proof doesn't 'prove' innocence, it just means there isn't enough proof to charge someone.

[SammyBoy]

...But if you get your information from the national daily papers then that is the obvious conclusion. Dig a little deeper and you'll find a wealth of detail you don't get from the popular press. You might see things a little differently.

I've got a Masters degree in History so I'm perfectly capable of checking the provenance of my sources and examining them critically, I've just seen nothing related to the Madeleine McCann case that would make me convinced the parents are responsible. As you're the one suggesting otherwise, isn't the burden of proof on you? I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you can show me evidence to the contrary.

[Sidney1st]

Of course they're responsible for this, they buggered off out and left their children home alone....

[SammyBoy]

Of course they're responsible for this, they buggered off out and left their children home alone....

I'm not disputing that, I'm saying I haven't seen any evidence that they murdered their daughter,

[Dy1geo]

When we had young children we never went out and left them unattended, we chose family accommodation with Crèche facilities operated by suitably qualified staff. In this country you can be charged for leaving a dog unattended in a car and the McCann’s thought that by organising a rota whereby they checked on each other’s children they could go on the lash.
A poor girl went missing in whatever circumstances but I have yet to hear the reasons how they were not charged with Neglect.

[houseboy]

I've got a Masters degree in History so I'm perfectly capable of checking the provenance of my sources and examining them critically, I've just seen nothing related to the Madeleine McCann case that would make me convinced the parents are responsible. As you're the one suggesting otherwise, isn't the burden of proof on you? I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you can show me evidence to the contrary.

With this case the burden of proof in any discussion doesn't lie with anyone because it is all conjecture. All we can ever have is opinion unless and until anyone is proved right or wrong. My personal belief is that there was some parental involvement. I could be wrong. For me, strange as it might seem, their behaviour was oddly unemotional during the staged managed interviews on TV in the weeks following the event, even down to the sad, holding hands walk to wherever the interview was taking place. They appeared cold to me and I said from the word go that I thought there was something not right. I would be delighted to be proved wrong as I would like to think that no-one would behave in that way, but no-one has convinced me yet.

[SammyBoy]

With this case the burden of proof in any discussion doesn't lie with anyone because it is all conjecture. All we can ever have is opinion unless and until anyone is proved right or wrong. My personal belief is that there was some parental involvement. I could be wrong. For me, strange as it might seem, their behaviour was oddly unemotional during the staged managed interviews on TV in the weeks following the event, even down to the sad, holding hands walk to wherever the interview was taking place. They appeared cold to me and I said from the word go that I thought there was something not right. I would be delighted to be proved wrong as I would like to think that no-one would behave in that way, but no-one has convinced me yet.

Isn't the entire British legal system based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty?

[Sidney1st]

Isn't the entire British legal system based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty?

Sorry but that gets left at the door when you enter a forum

[Svenster]

I've got a Masters degree in History so I'm perfectly capable of checking the provenance of my sources and examining them critically, I've just seen nothing related to the Madeleine McCann case that would make me convinced the parents are responsible. As you're the one suggesting otherwise, isn't the burden of proof on you? I'll happily admit I'm wrong if you can show me evidence to the contrary.

Then you are probably familiar with the concept of circumstantial evidence?

There is no proof of anything in this case - least of all an actual abduction. But there is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence to refute the accepted narrative - and who provided said narrative? - the very people who should have been most rigorously investigated!

The lack of any serious questioning of this Swiss-cheese scenario is very puzzling. And don't forget that as recently as last year the Portuguese Court confirmed that the two doctors were NEVER exonerated as they have claimed.

[Dyched]

As Im a single free spirited bachelor. Ive always thought family holidays are for family time. Im sure there are many parents on here who can say for sure. Families rarely get time together (school, work etc) So holidays are a perfect time to spend time, play, eat together as a family. So to leave then unattended whilst you go out is imho, disgraceful.

[bfccrazy]

With the money spent - they could have bought 366 Michael Duffs to fill in for Madeleine.

And 3 twix' with the change.

[TVC15]

What the authorities 'think' and what they can 'prove' are two different things. The law states that someone cannot be charged on a 'belief', there has to be an element of proof. Therefore they weren't charged. Lack of proof doesn't 'prove' innocence, it just means there isn't enough proof to charge someone.

I get how the law works cheers.

Maybe they were not charged because they did not murder their own daughter ? Just a wild crazy theory you know.

So far on this thread we have had comments like it was a busy complex ; probably manned by security guards ; the children were drugged ; blood in the car boot etc etc

Given all the potential lines of enquiries, witnesses and potential evidence etc that just this thread alone is pointing to you think there would be plenty of opportunity to find some proof.....or possibly the McCann`s are master criminals who planned all of this and covered every single track ? And then in Hollywood psychological thriller type of way they have spent more than 10 years pretending they are looking for their daughter and not once letting their guard down with the police or media and making a mistake. And in true Hollywood style one day they will make a mistake and we'll find out they killed their daughter, kidnapped Lord Lucan and Shergar is buried in their garden.

Or it could be the far fetched answer that they did not do it and someone took their daughter ?

[SammyBoy]

Then you are probably familiar with the concept of circumstantial evidence?

There is no proof of anything in this case - least of all an actual abduction. But there is a huge amount of circumstantial evidence to refute the accepted narrative - and who provided said narrative? - the very people who should have been most rigorously investigated!

The lack of any serious questioning of this Swiss-cheese scenario is very puzzling. And don't forget that as recently as last year the Portuguese Court confirmed that the two doctors were NEVER exonerated as they have claimed.

There's circumstantial evidence all the time in various investigations, the reason you can't be convicted based on it is because it's circumstantial. I'm not saying there's zero chance something untoward went on with respect to the parents. I'm just saying that until I see concrete evidence I will refrain from insinuating that two people murdered their daughter, roped the establishment into a cover up and have lived with impunity since. Also, if this evidence of their guilt is so abundant and easy to find, please can you link me to it? (I'm sure you know this already but a vlogger on Youtube doesn't count as credible evidence).

[Bordeauxclaret]

Whatever happened it’s incredibly sad.

I find the parents behaviour very bizarre from the start to the end in this. Playing tennis not long after always struck me as odd. I’d have been out looking for her non stop.

I think they are very odd people but I’d be very surprised if they were behind her disappearance other than being negligent.

[SammyBoy]

Whatever happened it’s incredibly sad.

I find the parents behaviour very odd from the start to the end in this. Playing tennis not long after always struck me as odd. I’d have been out looking for her non stop.

I think they are very odd people but I’d be very surprised if they were behind her disappearance other than being negligent.

I'm not having a go, because I basically think the same as you, but I think the whole tennis angle you've just referenced proves how subjective it is to interpret body language and actions from a distance. Personally, if I was about to embark on the cover up of the century the last thing I’d want to do is go for a knock about. I'd probably just have hidden away feeling incredibly stressed. So you can view it both ways..

[dsr]

There are two ways the McCanns could have killed their daughter:

1. A cunning and well-thought out plan to deliberately murder her. A plan which depended on finding at least one perfect hiding place for a body within a day of arriving at a new holiday destination, and one which involved leaving the children unattended. You may ask why they didn't carry out this same plan at home where they could have reasonably left the children in bed while sitting out in the garden? Good question.

2. An accidental death, whereby within an hour they managed to take all possible steps to revive her, find out she is dead beyond recall, grieve, get over it, work out a plan from scratch, find a foolproof hiding place, hide her, and get back to the dinner without the fellow guests noticing anything was wrong.

Neither of those scenarios make any sense at all. Not to me, anyway. Until someone can find something remotely likely that would suggest they killed her, then I have no reason to doubt them.

[Svenster]

There's circumstantial evidence all the time in various investigations, the reason you can't be convicted based on it is because it's circumstantial. I'm not saying there's zero chance something untoward went on with respect to the parents. I'm just saying that until I see concrete evidence I will refrain from insinuating that two people murdered their daughter, roped the establishment into a cover up and have lived with impunity since. Also, if this evidence of their guilt is so abundant and easy to find, please can you link me to it? (I'm sure you know this already but a vlogger on Youtube doesn't count as credible evidence).

There's plenty of convictions based on circumstantial evidence.

Until someone talks, I don't think there will ever be concrete proof.

Did the establishment have to be 'roped in'? - maybe it's in their own interest to keep the truth hidden. A lot of high-level aid was at their disposal from very early on.

There are lots of investigation/discussion websites that can easily be found.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I'm not having a go, because I basically think the same as you, but I think the whole tennis angle you've just referenced proves how subjective it is to interpret body language and actions from a distance. Personally, if I was about to embark on the cover up of the century the last thing I’d want to do is go for a knock about. I'd probably just have hidden away feeling incredibly stressed. So you can view it both ways..

Certainly subjective but I’m not sure you read the last paragraph.

[SammyBoy]

There's plenty of convictions based on circumstantial evidence.

Until someone talks, I don't think there will ever be concrete proof.

Did the establishment have to be 'roped in'? - maybe it's in their own interest to keep the truth hidden. A lot of high-level aid was at their disposal from very early on.

There are lots of investigation/discussion websites that can easily be found.

Can I just see the evidence you referenced earlier please? The stuff that didn't appear in the national press?

[SammyBoy]

Certainly subjective but I’m not sure you read the last paragraph.

Yeah that's what I mean, you can see it doesn't imply anything other than they might be a bit strange, but some people will run with that and start telling anyone who listens it means they're guilty of murder.

[Svenster]

Yeah that's what I mean, you can see it doesn't imply anything other than they might be a bit strange, but some people will run with that and start telling anyone who listens it means they're guilty of murder.

Very, very few people are making accusations of murder.

[SammyBoy]

Very, very few people are making accusations of murder.

Murder, manslaughter, deliberately being responsible for their daughters disappearance. All claims that IMO aren’t backed up by anything of substance. Anyway, are you going to link me to this evidence or what?

[Svenster]

Murder, manslaughter, deliberately being responsible for their daughters disappearance. All claims that IMO aren’t backed up by anything of substance. Anyway, are you going to link me to this evidence or what?

Circumstantial evidence indicates you are unwilling to use Google in this instance. Don't be lazy. If you're truly interested in the case and not just having a barney on here, do a bit of research.

[SammyBoy]

Circumstantial evidence indicates you are unwilling to use Google in this instance. Don't be lazy. If you're truly interested in the case and not just having a barney on here, do a bit of research.

Surely it’s better if we’re both looking at the same source(s), then we can fully compare and contrast each other’s interpretation of them? As you brought them up, and seem to know where they are please link me to them. Otherwise I’ll assume your insider (not for public consumption) knowledge is just as baseless as the literally hundreds of other conspiracy theories knocking about the darkest recesses of the Internet.

[DCWat]

If only Svenster has been assigned the case. It’d have save the taxpayer millions and there’d be no need for this silly debate.