Safe Standing Survey from the Shadow Minister for Sport

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:19 pm

South West Claret. wrote:It won’t let me submit my views without me giving away my email address, what a waste of time.

You do understand that the email address is to stop people filling in multiple forms, therefore making the survey pointless. There is also an Orion for them not to contact you.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:24 pm

RammyClaret61 wrote:You do understand that the email address is to stop people filling in multiple forms, therefore making the survey pointless. There is also an Orion for them not to contact you.

Are you serious who in their right mind would want to do something like that.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:28 am

I am just about old enough to remember standing at our ground. And remember my first ever away game as a 3 year old on terraces at wembley in 1988.

Standing isnt what caused issues in the past. Standing is safe. Most humans stand. And most fans stand to get in and out of the ground. And most stand spontaneously when a goal is scored or a chance is created. Its unnatural not to.

Standing didnt cause Hillsborough. The environment at Hillsborough did and the environment today is not much better. People standing in seats and aisles. People standing in frong of people who want to sit (thus causing confrontation).

The world moved on. Hilsborough was a tragic event that should never have happened and never be forgotten. But the fact one event four decades ago dictates how we view a game now is wrong. Hilsboroughs legacy should be safe standing not no standing.

Thousands of fans stand in stadia new and old around the world week in week out. Designated numbers of tickets for designated sections in a safe standing stand with no fencing would almost certainly eliminate any risk of crushes.

England is so backwards for stuff like this. Thankfully this may be about to change.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:31 am

Oh. And as for people complaining about 10 percent. You have to start somewhere. 1 percent would be better than what we have now.

If someone offered us 2000 standing tomorrow id bite their hand off.

Also I expect you can get 2 standers for every one seat. So that would increase the capacity of the cricket field to 6 to 8000 in theory. Meaning 10% would be closer to 3000 or so.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:19 am

If it’s safe standing it shouldn’t matter how many there are. I’ve completed it but fed up of all the surveys and hot air now, something should have been sorted years ago.

I can see the need for safer standing areas but it wasn’t actually standing that was the problem. Not that we need to go back to that one again.

Anyway hopefully this is a big step forward.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:21 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Oh. And as for people complaining about 10 percent. You have to start somewhere. 1 percent would be better than what we have now.

If someone offered us 2000 standing tomorrow id bite their hand off.

Also I expect you can get 2 standers for every one seat. So that would increase the capacity of the cricket field to 6 to 8000 in theory. Meaning 10% would be closer to 3000 or so.

Is that the case CC? I’d assumed that because they can be a chair or a standing section that they’d be pretty similar in terms of the space taken.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:16 am

It depends on a number of things, but in theory you can. A person takes up less space standing than they do when sitting, to a ratio of about 1.8 : 1. Cricket Field Stand (4,100) x 1.8 = 7,380.

In Germany they use that to increase capacity by having almost two people to a space, so effectively have another step between the barriers.

Depth between seats in UK stadiums might not allow it. Entrances/exits, toilets, refreshment kiosks etc might be lacking as they’ve been built for seats, and you can tell by the leg room in most that it wouldn’t be capable. The stadiums in Germany tend to have been designed with rail seating, or another form of standing in mind.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:33 am

ClaretAndJew wrote:Least it wasn't Jizzfest

No good to him at his age...

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:31 am

DCWat wrote:Is that the case CC? I’d assumed that because they can be a chair or a standing section that they’d be pretty similar in terms of the space taken.

I believe so yeah. Although as claretforever says it depends on the facilities of the stand.

The cfs is alredy way too packed under the concourse. And ive no doubt that an extra 1,000 plus in there WOULD be dangerous.

Again thats not because standings unsafe.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:29 am

DCWat wrote:If it’s safe standing it shouldn’t matter how many there are. I’ve completed it but fed up of all the surveys and hot air now, something should have been sorted years ago.

I can see the need for safer standing areas but it wasn’t actually standing that was the problem. Not that we need to go back to that one again.

Anyway hopefully this is a big step forward.

There are people trying to put the Government under pressure to make changes to allow safe standing. If that means filling in surveys then so be it, I'd be happy to fill them in on a daily basis if it helped. Don't get fed up of it, just help keep pushing in any way we can.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:38 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I believe so yeah. Although as claretforever says it depends on the facilities of the stand.

The cfs is alredy way too packed under the concourse. And ive no doubt that an extra 1,000 plus in there WOULD be dangerous.

Again thats not because standings unsafe.

No matter how big the concourse is it will always get congested. At newer grounds such as the Emirates it can get full pretty quickly, for example.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:41 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Also I expect you can get 2 standers for every one seat. So that would increase the capacity of the cricket field to 6 to 8000 in theory. Meaning 10% would be closer to 3000 or so.

Would always depend on the ground and the situation there. The rail seating at Celtic is one standing per seat, and I believe it is the same at Shrewsbury so there is no increase in capacity when standing in use.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:27 pm

I might start another thread about this another time, as this thread is around but the myth of safe standing really needs to be exposed. Hillsborough was not a tragedy due to the terracing design but to the fan flow and the fencing and policing. Heysel was down to the policing and the fans, as far as I know. The Bradford fire deaths might have been avoided had it been in a terraced area, because there would have been easier exit. The Celtic match at Turf Moor might have resulted in death, had that incident occurred in a seating area. The rapid movement of fans along the terracing allowed the Burnley boys to escape the rain of bottles and to get quickly on to the pitch.

The first thing that needs to be exposed in this matter is the myth that there was anything wrong with the terracing as it was and that safe standing is the solution.

What is the seat for, with safe standing anyway? The zimmer frame apparatus is the biggest insult to the Englishman ever created.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:32 pm

Pstotto wrote:I might start another thread about this another time, as this thread is around but the myth of safe standing really needs to be exposed. Hillsborough was not a tragedy due to the terracing design but to the fan flow and the fencing and policing. Heysel was down to the policing and the fans, as far as I know. The Bradford fire deaths might have been avoided had it been in a terraced area, because there would have been easier exit. The Celtic match at Turf Moor might have resulted in death, had that incident occurred in a seating area. The rapid movement of fans along the terracing allowed the Burnley boys to escape the rain of bottles and to get quickly on to the pitch.

The first thing that needs to be exposed in this matter is the myth that there was anything wrong with the terracing as it was and that safe standing is the solution.

What is the seat for, with safe standing anyway? The zimmer frame apparatus is the biggest insult to the Englishman ever created.

Absolutely spot on.

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:38 pm

Guidelines have been in place for a long time regarding how many barriers should be in place per however many people.

These guidelines were brought in because of previous disasters which WERE caused by terracing as it was, such as the Burnden Park disaster, and as an example for another crush, the 1971 Ibrox disaster, which involved people falling down an unbarriered stairway.

Safe standing, with multiple barriers and hence very limited opportunity for crushes, is just that. It's safe, and should absolutely be what football adopts en masse.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:44 pm

"............Safe standing, with multiple barriers and hence very limited opportunity for crushes, is just that. It's safe, and should absolutely be what football adopts en masse."

This has got to be a lot safer than fans standing up in seating areas which do not have any barriers to stop people falling forward and possibly causing other people to fall amomgst the seats.

Claretmatt4 · Post by **Claretmatt4** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:57 pm

It would probably easier to pass a law to allow a 10% then build off that and have more

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:45 pm

Safe standing is a no brainer. Better for those who wish to sit. Safer for those who stand anyway.

I don’t understand the 10% limit. If every seat is a railseat, the options are for 0-100% sitting or standing. That’s the point of railseats!

Still, at least he discussion is now being had.

On another note...

pushpinpussy has managed to find a problem that never existed, and not give a solution, when the solution is actually safe standing, which he thinks is the original problem!

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:47 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Would always depend on the ground and the situation there. The rail seating at Celtic is one standing per seat, and I believe it is the same at Shrewsbury so there is no increase in capacity when standing in use.

And for the time being, no need to alter this IMO

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:28 pm

Utter rubbish, Roosterbooster and thank you CC for affirming the simple facts. There's standing and seating not a choice between safe and unsafe standing!!!!!!!!!

How this catchphrase has fooled a whole nation and even a whole world, blows the mind. A whole world caught by a political red herring and you're one of the suckers Roosterbooster.

If they'd invented an issue called blancmange seating and enough folk went on about it in the press and the politically-placed 'reception' of the idea via Facebook etc., then the issue would be all about blancmange seating and their would be views either for or against and even surveys by FIFA etc.

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:40 pm

There are still hundreds of grounds around the country with open terracing...admittedly not many of them packed to the rafters.

How many people have died as a result of this in the last 10 years ?

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:43 pm

I put that point on the survey and I hope everyone else who filled it in, has.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:04 am

Government to review safe standing with Premier League & Football League.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44362522" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's also on the agenda for this week's Premier League AGM.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:37 am

Pstotto wrote:Utter rubbish, Roosterbooster and thank you CC for affirming the simple facts. There's standing and seating not a choice between safe and unsafe standing!!!!!!!!!

How this catchphrase has fooled a whole nation and even a whole world, blows the mind. A whole world caught by a political red herring and you're one of the suckers Roosterbooster.

If they'd invented an issue called blancmange seating and enough folk went on about it in the press and the politically-placed 'reception' of the idea via Facebook etc., then the issue would be all about blancmange seating and their would be views either for or against and even surveys by FIFA etc.

Im going to start the campaign.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:38 am

Pstotto wrote:I put that point on the survey and I hope everyone else who filled it in, has.

I mentioned that its all over the world. In new and old grounds. Some very old.

It feels a million times safer standing in a proper terrace.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:47 am

GOOD!!!!!!!!!!

150,000 million %.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:41 pm

Just bumping for those who haven’t seen it. If you haven’t done so already could you please consider filling in the short survey.

I was at the meeting this afternoon and the 10% was queried by a lot of people. The opinion was that if safe standing were to be allowed it should be determined club by club as to how much provision there should be for standing.

She did ask that as many as possible complete the survey.

Croydon Claret · Post by **Croydon Claret** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:56 pm

Paul Fletcher was on Radio Lancs yesterday talking about safe seating, introduced as an expert in stadium design. He wasn't for or against but was trying to make a point that one aspect of safety certificates concerns how quickly people can exit from a stadium. His point was that "safe standing" meant more people in a given area and unless stadium owners widened gangways, concourses and exit points then that could be an argument against it.

Then I remembered his amazing bread bin design, realised he was talking about nonsense, and must have no clue what rail seating is

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:17 pm

Croydon Claret wrote:Paul Fletcher was on Radio Lancs yesterday talking about safe seating, introduced as an expert in stadium design. He wasn't for or against but was trying to make a point that one aspect of safety certificates concerns how quickly people can exit from a stadium. His point was that "safe standing" meant more people in a given area and unless stadium owners widened gangways, concourses and exit points then that could be an argument against it.

Then I remembered his amazing bread bin design, realised he was talking about nonsense, and must have no clue what rail seating is

He’s always been against it though and he always throws the same info into the equation.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:46 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I mentioned that its all over the world. In new and old grounds. Some very old.

It feels a million times safer standing in a proper terrace.

Utter ********. You are too young to have lived through the hell of hoards of neanderthals charging around the terracing and folk tripping over themselves unsure which way to go for safety.
Safe standing is precisely that. Any movement is lateral and controlled.
I’d love to see open terraces and fans able to watch a match together but it’s not happening.
As long as there are the 1% idiots this is the only option you are going to get so go with it.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:49 pm

Croydon Claret wrote:Paul Fletcher was on Radio Lancs yesterday talking about safe seating, introduced as an expert in stadium design. He wasn't for or against but was trying to make a point that one aspect of safety certificates concerns how quickly people can exit from a stadium. His point was that "safe standing" meant more people in a given area and unless stadium owners widened gangways, concourses and exit points then that could be an argument against it.

Then I remembered his amazing bread bin design, realised he was talking about nonsense, and must have no clue what rail seating is

As I understand it the capacity required for rail seating, aka safe standing will be exactly the same as the all seating arrangements at the present time. If this is the case, (1) there will be no increase in spectator capacity and (2) the question of whether it is safer to exit quickly from rail seating/safe standing or from the existing all seater areas will be in favour of greater safety with the rail seating arrangements.

So, if the law allows - and it should - the stadiums will be safer with rail seating/safe standing arrangements.

The unsafe aspect of open terracing is (i) the surge of the crowd and (ii) limited control of the numbers packed into any particular area - with the risk that large numbers crush those against barriers at the front/below the "weight" of the crowd.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:19 pm

piston broke wrote:Utter ********. You are too young to have lived through the hell of hoards of neanderthals charging around the terracing and folk tripping over themselves unsure which way to go for safety.
Safe standing is precisely that. Any movement is lateral and controlled.
I’d love to see open terraces and fans able to watch a match together but it’s not happening.
As long as there are the 1% idiots this is the only option you are going to get so go with it.

Standing in a terrace is simply far safer than standing in a seated stand.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:00 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Standing in a terrace is simply far safer than standing in a seated stand.

100% in agreement with that statement.

What we've got now is unsafe standing, far worse than terracing. I know someone who broke a leg at Preston a few years ago because of people falling over seats. That didn't happen on the old terracing and certainly wouldn't happen with rail seating if it is implemented.

I was really enthused at the meeting yesterday. Didn't matter whether it was standers or sitters speaking, old(er) our young, it was the same voice coming through loud and clear.

More and more clubs are coming out in support and the sports minister, I feel, made a dreadful mistake in not allowing West Brom to trial rail seating. That's a big opportunity wasted.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:00 am

Labour have now official announced their backing for a return to standing in the top two divisions.

Issue to be debated in Parliament later in June.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... l-stadiums" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I noticed a certain Mr Scholes aattended the meeting with Dr Rosena Allum-Khan.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:05 am

Surely that's grandad, out of Fools and Horses.

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:07 am

Labour will say anything that makes them look in tune with the people and win votes. No different to any other opposition party really.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:13 am

Of course they are riding the crest of the wave, and why wouldn’t they? It’s what politicians do and is expected. The fact they aren’t just including it in a manifesto, but actually spending a lot of time talking to and listening to the actual fans and doing research fills me with hope.

The thing is, the Conservatives will now have to front up to the opposition on it and will be worried about the consequences of not taking it seriously...which they haven’t done so far.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:21 am

Have they also said they'll pay for every club in the country to convert their existing stands into safe standing areas?

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:23 am

Good. Hopefully our sports minister will actually take it seriously now.

Long overdue this is brought in.

gtclaret · Post by **gtclaret** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:38 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Have they also said they'll pay for every club in the country to convert their existing stands into safe standing areas?

Just give it time, they just haven't thought of it yet

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:43 am

I think I'm too old to stand for 90 minutes now.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:45 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Have they also said they'll pay for every club in the country to convert their existing stands into safe standing areas?

You are missing all the points totally with that comment. Many, many clubs want to go in that direction. West Brom and Crystal Palace have already been refused permission to install rail seating and Spurs have already put provision into their new stadium. It's about given clubs the choice to give fans the choice.

I believe the sports minister made a huge error and missed out on a superb opportunity by refusing West Brom's plan to trial rail seating. It's working at Celtic and they could have shown that it is would work very well at one of our grounds.

I've merged this with the existing thread and can I again ask that as many as possible complete Dr Rosena Allin-Khan's short survey linked at the top of the thread.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:56 am

Well said Tony.

A lot on here are only interested in partisan political points scoring and won't accept a good idea simply because it originates from the other 'side'

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:00 am

ClaretTony wrote:
What we've got now is unsafe standing, far worse than terracing. I know someone who broke a leg at Preston a few years ago because of people falling over seats. That didn't happen on the old terracing and certainly wouldn't happen with rail seating if it is implemented

Agree 100% with that but CFC is wanting open terracing as I read him which, to me, is a backward step. Rail seating is the way forward.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:08 am

Falcon wrote:Well said Tony.

A lot on here are only interested in partisan political points scoring and won't accept a good idea simply because it originates from the other 'side'

Clive Efford, the previous shadow sports minister, chaired the meeting on Wednesday alongside Rosena Allin-Khan. Both are passionate football fans, which always helps. Both of them have held meetings with various fan groups over the time, none more so than Liverpool who have had the more difficult task of working with the Hillsborough families and support groups who they even took on a fact finding mission to Celtic Park.

Those two politicians get it, they really get it, because they are there watching their own teams most weeks just like us.

I posted further up that I was so enthused at the meeting. No matter whether those who spoke were young or old, men or women, all wanted this to happen. People want the CHOICE, so they can sit and watch (which many can't do now at away games) or stand and watch. The sooner, the better for me.

At a lot of clubs, fans have set up specific groups to push this forward. Interestingly, and despite some coming on this board ranting about people complaining at away games telling people to sit down etc. etc., there was very little support for a group of Burnley fans behind safe standing.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:10 am

piston broke wrote:Agree 100% with that but CFC is wanting open terracing as I read him which, to me, is a backward step. Rail seating is the way forward.

He certainly said open terracing is safer than what we have now and I agreed with him 100% because what we have now is the worst of all worlds. It's certainly unsafe standing and because it's all we have, particularly away from home, there is often no sitting option. I know people who don't go to away games now because of an inability to stand and I know people who go and often can't see.

There are no proposals to go back to terracing of the old kind, but it would be better and safer than what we have now in my view. Rail seating, or something similar, has to be the way forward.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 am

Labour have announced they "back safe standing".

Good news for the campaign and very welcome to have an ostensibly mainstream party adopting a sensible policy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44407450" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:49 am

piston broke wrote:Agree 100% with that but CFC is wanting open terracing as I read him which, to me, is a backward step. Rail seating is the way forward.

I didnt say that. I just ssid that would be safer than what we have now. Given the choice i would take that over now. But thats never going to happen and rail sesting is the way forward.

Time and technology and engineering and construction all change.

If we were to build a new cfs it would be far different and safer than it is today even if it was seating only. Doesnt mean its currently unsafe. But could be much safer.

Standing in rails appears to be safe. Thats not to say a return to terracing would be unsafe if done properly.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:00 am

The issue/risk around open standing if it was reintroduced today wouldn't be the safety of the terracing as we are million miles away in terms of Health & Safety, construction and attitude towards safety of the football fan than we were in th 70's and 80's

The issue would be that it would be a lot easier for groups of intent people to cause trouble and remain faceless and hard for the authorities to control. For example if there is some trouble or pitch invasions its far easier for fans to jump back in to the old longside and disappear in to the mass of people than it would be to jump into a seating stand or even a terrace where everyone are neatly stacked in rows and have specific spots

Croydon Claret · Post by **Croydon Claret** » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:06 pm

Received an email saying that Labour support safe standing, following analysis of the survey results.

A step in the right direction