David Davis resigns

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Imploding Turtle
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:23 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Highest power in our legal system (European court) You say yourself that leaving the EU will ruin us, not even to mention the membership fees (control our money) mandatory to permit permanent entry for all EU citizens to our country (control out borders). Undeniable.



Ironic.

You also totally evaded my point.

How is it healthy or a good thing to be so helplessly bound to an organisation that many do not like or trust the direction it is going in.

Well, we're not helplessly bound to them. We can leave if we want and cut all ties. It would be a disaster for us, and entirely self-inflicted, but that doesn't mean we're helplessly bound to them. Lots of countries survive outside the EU, as people like you were at pains to remind us two years ago, such as Norway. Funny thing is that now that we're heading towards something that at least looks like a Norway-style outcome after Brexit you're all throwing an absolute hissy-fit as if this isn't exactly what you lot were claiming could happen while trying to counter what you called "Project Fear™".


Here's how it's gone.

1)You campaigned for Brexit.
2)You countered fears of hard Brexit by saying we could be like Norway
3)You win based on your argument that we could be like Norway
4)Our government, after a shambolic two years, comes up with a Brexit that makes us like Norway
5)You lot flip your **** and claim that it's like we're not even leaving because you are now demanding that hard Brexit

The EU referendum gave you a Leave mandate by an inch and you tried to pretend the mandate was a mile long, and shout down anyone who ever dated to point to the actual result and remind you that you only barely won, and won on a soft Brexit argument. So **** you all. Scream and cry all you like but you're only getting what you campaigned for, and nothing more.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:24 am

I've no idea where we go from here.

Conservatives are all over the place, and so are Labour.

But people won't vote in enough numbers for anyone else.

Not sure a GE will help to be honest.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:25 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I've no idea where we go from here.

Conservatives are all over the place, and so are Labour.

But people won't vote in enough numbers for anyone else.

Not sure a GE will help to be honest.
This is why we need electoral reform. FPTP is completely useless and only worked to ensure one of two parties remain in power.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:29 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is why we need electoral reform. FPTP is completely useless and only worked to ensure one of two parties remain in power.
Now that I do agree with.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by claret59 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:31 am

It is Labour Party policy to support Brexit . They have no policy for a second referendum and even if there was to be one what happens if the result is the same?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:32 am

Yes I think it is in our interest. As I think IT mentioned in another post with all the bullsh*t media control and the Tories disdain for anyone but themselves leaving the EU would be a step for our country towards a vacuous wasteland of a society like the US.

Also we are not bound to them we are that organisation because it isn't thie ridiculous paranoid us and them scenario that a lot of people make it out to be.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:32 am

I think anyone who doesn't vote Lab or Con agrees with it.

But guess what, they don't.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Rick_Muller » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:36 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This is why we need electoral reform. FPTP is completely useless and only worked to ensure one of two parties remain in power.
ClaretMoffitt wrote:Now that I do agree with.
moffit&IT.JPG
moffit&IT.JPG (32.16 KiB) Viewed 2336 times
F#ck me - I'm getting this post framed... ;)
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:39 am

Rick_Muller wrote:
moffit&IT.JPG
F#ck me - I'm getting this post framed... ;)
In fairness we have both consistently said that since UKIP and the Greens got totally screwed the GE before last which left about 5-6 million voters almost totally unrepresented and the SNP totally and ridiculously over represented.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:40 am

claret59 wrote:It is Labour Party policy to support Brexit . They have no policy for a second referendum and even if there was to be one what happens if the result is the same?
If the result was the same 52-48 split for leave (or close to it) then it would re-affirm the mandate for a very soft Brexit, which would be politically quite easy to do since no one could blame the party that enacted it. That's what the problem really is, the Tories are scared to death that they will be held responsible because it was their stupid, self-serving, campaign policy in 2015 that started all this, and their terrible campaign that allowed an even worse and more dishonest campaign to win in 2016.

This is all about public votes/support and who gets blamed, and the Tories are looking desperately for a way to not be the ones who are blamed, yet two years on, they still can't find one, because it's entirely their fault.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:In fairness we have both consistently said that since UKIP and the Greens got totally screwed the GE before last which left about 5-6 million voters almost totally unrepresented and the SNP totally and ridiculously over represented.
One of us have been saying it for a lot longer than that.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:43 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:One of us have been saying it for a lot longer than that.
Youre older than me, I was only just getting into politics at that point.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:43 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Youre older than me, I was only just getting into politics at that point.
Fair enough.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:44 am

Brexiteers promised this would be easy. #DavidDavis failed to deliver a ‘cake and eat it’ #Brexit & now walks away. Reality is that hard vs soft Brexit was not on the ballot paper & there is no majority in the Country or Parliament for a walk-away, no-deal hard Brexit.
This is it in a nutshell.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is it in a nutshell.
In fairness most leave voters seemed to readily accept that the short term was going to be difficult and costly but with a view to being better off in the long run. It's only the snivelling cowards like Boris and Gove that we're terrified any concession to difficulty would result in lower votes for their little ego booster project of a campaign that said otherwise.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:51 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:59 am

If it be your will wrote:Is this right, though? I'm not convinced. If it were put to a 3-way vote between hard Brexit, a fudged soft Brexit deal like May's, and remain, I imagine the soft Brexit option would come a very distant third (or if using AV method, would be knocked out in the first round).

The one thing practically nobody wants is a fudged soft Brexit that has no merit whatsoever.
The original vote wasn't a 3-way vote. And i'm referring only to binary votes. If it's 52-48 leave then there's no way to interpret that other than that we want to leave, but very softly. I agree that neither side would be happy, but that's just what happens when one side of the ballot is definitive and the other side is vague.

If you want to put 'No Deal' on the ballot then please proceed, Governor. Because the opposite side of that vote will be starting at 48%, because no one who voted to Remain will be voting for a No Deal Brexit.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:04 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:08 am

But the only sensible way to interpret a 52/48 vote is for a fudge.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:08 am

If it be your will wrote:I think it simply has to be done (a 3-way AV referendum between hard/soft/remain). I think you're right that remain would win (narrowly), and so be it. To end up with a totally stupid outcome of a fudged Brexit would be a complete travesty, though.
I'd go along with it too.


Providing that was then it. The result would be fully adhered to and the conspiring and whinging would cease.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:10 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:10 am

I'd hate it.

Unless its a thumping win (60% +) then these problems continue.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Rick_Muller » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:12 am

Is it coincidence that this is all happening this week of all weeks what with the circus of Trump visiting (Friday 13th... that'll get the conspiracy theorists damp) and the good feeling wave to ride with the World Cup - good week to bury bad news...?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:13 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'd hate it.

Unless its a thumping win (60% +) then these problems continue.
No chance of that it'd be 40 20 40 with a 5% discrepancy either way for leave or stay which would ultimately decide.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:13 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:15 am

If it be your will wrote:(You total idiot, Cameron. Why the hell did you have this vote?)
In fairness, if 52% of the voting population voted for it. Its difficult to argue that there was an underlying issue that desperately needed to be addressed. Human beings by nature will stick to what is comfortable and familiar in the main, the fact that they didn't here despite all warnings of gloom is very compelling.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am

If it be your will wrote:(You total idiot, Cameron. Why the hell did you have this vote?)
Because without promising it he thought his party would lose the 2015 election.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am

And back in circles we go.

You really think it would be the same after all we've been through for two years.

I get that there is a UKIP vote of approx 10% that won't ever listen to anything other "The EU is the fault of everything", but no more than that

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:17 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:19 am

If it be your will wrote:I think it simply has to be done (a 3-way AV referendum between hard/soft/remain). I think you're right that remain would win (narrowly), and so be it. To end up with a totally stupid outcome of a fudged Brexit would be a complete travesty, though.
There's no way that the Tories can show anything other than FPTP "working" in an election. If they allowed AV in a referendum and showed it working after they trashed it 7 years ago there'd be no way to prevent the public wanting it in general elections, and that's an outcome the Tories can't have.
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:19 am

If it be your will wrote:But we aren't going to address it are we ClaretMoffit??? I do take you're point, however.
lol no, its totally ****** isnt it :lol: :lol:

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:22 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:No chance of that it'd be 40 20 40 with a 5% discrepancy either way for leave or stay which would ultimately decide.
Maybe, but under some sort of AV, single transferable vote or whatever, the 20% might convert to a 60 / 40, or at least a reasonable majority for one of the other outcomes.
I agree that it would solve nothing if the 20% then divided almost exactly 50 / 50 to the other 2 options.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:23 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Billy Balfour » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:25 am

David Davis resigns

Man stops doing nothing at work.
Last edited by Billy Balfour on Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:26 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:There's no way that the Tories can show anything other than FPTP "working" in an election. If they allowed AV in a referendum and showed it working after they trashed it 7 years ago there'd be no way to prevent the public wanting it in general elections, and that's an outcome the Tories can't have.
Honestly I don't think they are clever enough to think in such a way, they strike me as a totally reactionary government.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by TVC15 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 am

ClaretMoffitt wrote:In fairness, if 52% of the voting population voted for it. Its difficult to argue that there was an underlying issue that desperately needed to be addressed. Human beings by nature will stick to what is comfortable and familiar in the main, the fact that they didn't here despite all warnings of gloom is very compelling.
52% of the voting population who actually bothered to vote.
Looking back you wonder whether making it more difficult for the young first time voters was a deliberate strategy ? Or maybe it was just the run of the mill everyday incompetence of the civil servant sh-itbags.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:28 am

Raab replaces Davis btw

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by hampsteadclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:29 am

Dominic Raab is the replacement... a confirmed Brexiter..

- for a Tory I quite like him.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:31 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:31 am

He's certainly more competent than David Davis

Mind you, so is my cat

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:33 am

If it be your will wrote:I'd be staggered if May's fudge got anything like 20%. I'd imagine it would get less than 5%, so stupid as it is.
There would be a massive fuss over the wording on the ballot paper like there was last time, they'd make it sound as appealing as possible like

What you prefer to see a combined approach that would involve maintaining some important aspects of EU membership whilst giving us freedoms to revoke or change others?

Which of course sounds all nice and good to read and may influence less invested voters.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Billy Balfour » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:33 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Raab replaces Davis btw
If he also resigns it will be Raab bye.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by LoveCurryPies » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:34 am

hampsteadclaret wrote:Dominic Raan is the replacement... a confirmed Brexiter..

- for a Tory I quite like him.
If you like him so much, maybe you'd spell his name correctly. ;)

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:35 am

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by ClaretEngineer » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:47 am

If it be your will wrote:You're doing better than me, then. Never heard of him. Hardly going to be taken seriously in Brussels, though. I can just see the look on Barnier's face when he pitches up, a look that says: Who is this Raab they've sent?
Rab C Nesbitt would be a better bet.

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:50 am

Massive mistake by Tory Remainers to appoint a Tory Remainer PM. Better to have gone with Boris, let him do what he would do, then succeed him later with someone more EU sympathetic. Even Boris would have tried to retain some supply chain arrangements.

Now there isn’t a majority for any deal, of any type, without Labour supporting it. In essence, Corbyn is in charge of Brexit.

That will mean we will enter this half in, half out, state. May will get ejected (probably in 2020). The Tories will still urge for more distance from Europe just like the last 30 years, and this will go on, and on, and on, and on.........

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:52 am

As i've said before, if you campaign for a half-in, half-out Brexit and win, you can't really be taken seriously when you complain about getting a half-in, half-out Brexit.

Can I get at least some kind of indication that you understand that?

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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:55 am

Raab C Brexit
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Re: David Davis resigns

Post by hampsteadclaret » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:01 am

94.. don’t be a dick.
I know his name, I read a lot of politics.
You ever heard of auto-correct?
I put it right within 40 seconds.

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