Hysteria

[joey13]

Over 50 years a fan, and all I really care about is that there is a Burnley Football Club, and that the games are enjoyable. Winning is a bonus.

That mindset took us down to Division 4

[Spijed]

That mindset took us down to Division 4

Did Wolves have the same mindset as well?

[jlup1980]

The point of referring to the Orient game is that it gives you a perspective; a reference point. If you're old enough to remember it, you know that 9 May 1987 is arguably THE most important date in the club's history. It was an existential crisis, the likes of which we'd never seen before or since. I've seen the Clarets bottom of the Fourth Division and 4th in the Premier League. If we end up somewhere half way between (as we did for many seasons from 2000 onwards) it really isn't the existential crisis of the Orient game, is it? And if you're not old enough to remember it, you'll have another reference point, perhaps from the catastrophic Waddle season or Steve Cotterill's final season in charge. And that's fine.

Many on here are old enough and [un]fortunate enough to have witnessed the slow, agonising build up to the Orient game through the 84/85, 85/86 and 86/87 seasons. Trust me, in those hard times we were constantly reminded of how Burnley was a sleeping giant, a grand old lady that had fallen on hard times, and our reference point in those times was to the great sides of the 1960s and early 70s. We too just wanted people to focus on the here and now: the crises on and off the pitch and not the glory days of 20 years previous. But it was the anger among supporters at Burnley's situation in 1987 and the determination that it would never happen again that laid the early foundations for what the club is now. It is therefore understandable that so many of us use it as a benchmark for assessing the status of the club now and having a sense of perspective.

Before I sign off: none of this should be interpreted as endorsing a lack of ambition. But you do sometimes have to be realistic about what Burnley are capable of achieving. Last year was a very high watermark; don't be surprised that is it difficult to replicate.

[Edit: I could've saved myself a whole load of aggro by simply agreeing with TVC15!]

Very well put Sausage. The Premier League is a difficult beast to tame and we managed it beyond our expectations last season. That means nothing for this season though. Have we lacked ambition? I'm not too sure. When you look at our squad on paper it's as strong as any I can remember. When everyone is fit we have 2 strong line-ups; the issue is we have injury concerns and fixture congestion.

Whether it's the Orient game, the Waddle season, Cotter-ball or Brian Laws we've all seen relatively poor periods. If you started supporting Burnley 10 years ago your reference points are going to be totally different to someone who started watching us 40 years ago. I agree to a point with some of the other posters on here about our over-referencing of the Orient game. It has no relevance these days, and this comes from a supporter with 30+ years under his belt. Don't get me wrong, it's important to look back but it's equally as important to look forward.

We've started this season slowly but we will improve. If we lose vs Olympiakos this Thursday I think it'll be a great relief to Dyche, the players and the Board. It's too much for us to handle at this current time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to be in this position again, it's just a learning of what it's like at the next level up. There's no blame to be apportioned or levelled at any individual or group. We've just had a bit of back luck at a time when we needed a fully fit squad. It happens.

UTC!

[claretspice]

There is surely a sensible middle ground between "thank god we're not in the 4th tier" and "we should be pushing on from 7th in the table". The trouble is that the debate gets polarised at every turn, which is perhaps the OP's point.

There's always lots of chatter when folk remind others about the division 4 days about not placing the long term future of the club at risk. That's a valid point, but it ignores the fact that the future of the club is best served by maximising our opportunities for success in order to capture new/young supporters. To that end, we didn't do as much as we should have done in the summer to develop the squad and maximise the long-term advantage to the club of this golden period in our history. It won't last for ever, but there's no reason why it should end imminently and if it does, then to the extent its because the squad was short of numbers, then there'll be justifiable cause for recrimination.

On the other hand, luck plays a big part in where any of the 13 clubs below the established top 7 finish. We've undoubtedly been a bit unlucky with injuries in recent months and been a touch unlucky with the bounce of the ball generally. There's no one to be blamed for that and it needs to be separated out from the argument about recruitment.

Finally, and in any event all of this is premature. There's no reason why just because we've failed to win our opening 3 league games, we should be relegated this season. The core of the squad is strong and its experienced at this level. So all of this argument is a bit premature. 3 games isn't even a form guide, and folk are getting carried away with it. We can revisit all of this in November, when the table and our season has settled down a bit.

[joey13]

Did Wolves have the same mindset as well?

Don’t follow Wolves how would I know

[joey13]

There is surely a sensible middle ground between "thank god we're not in the 4th tier" and "we should be pushing on from 7th in the table". The trouble is that the debate gets polarised at every turn, which is perhaps the OP's point.

There's always lots of chatter when folk remind others about the division 4 days about not placing the long term future of the club at risk. That's a valid point, but it ignores the fact that the future of the club is best served by maximising our opportunities for success in order to capture new/young supporters. To that end, we didn't do as much as we should have done in the summer to develop the squad and maximise the long-term advantage to the club of this golden period in our history. It won't last for ever, but there's no reason why it should end imminently and if it does, then to the extent its because the squad was short of numbers, then there'll be justifiable cause for recrimination.

On the other hand, luck plays a big part in where any of the 13 clubs below the established top 7 finish. We've undoubtedly been a bit unlucky with injuries in recent months and been a touch unlucky with the bounce of the ball generally. There's no one to be blamed for that and it needs to be separated out from the argument about recruitment.

Finally, and in any event all of this is premature. There's no reason why just because we've failed to win our opening 3 league games, we should be relegated this season. The core of the squad is strong and its experienced at this level. So all of this argument is a bit premature. 3 games isn't even a form guide, and folk are getting carried away with it. We can revisit all of this in November, when the table and our season has settled down a bit.

But not just about this season is it , it’s winning 5 from 30 and not investing in the summer , we have no pace up front , no creativity in midfield, and the defense have lost confidence.

[TVC15]

Is that the same defence who had one of the best records in the Premier League last year ?
Or is that the defence you seem to be writing off after the last 2 league games ?

Out of the 30 games you mentioned did we not pick up some draws ?....I suppose drawing at some with Man City counts as a disaster in your book ?

[joey13]

Is that the same defence who had one of the best records in the Premier League last year ?
Or is that the defence you seem to be writing off after the last 2 league games ?

Out of the 30 games you mentioned did we not pick up some draws ?....I suppose drawing at some with Man City counts as a disaster in your book ?

Ok then why have we conceded 10 goals in 3 matches ?

[Spijed]

But not just about this season is it , it’s winning 5 from 30 and not investing in the summer , we have no pace up front , no creativity in midfield, and the defense have lost confidence.

Last season, we had no pace up front, and hardly any creativity in midfield for long periods.

[Royboyclaret]

Hysteria.

We are in Europe for the first time in a very long time with a very good chance of progressing to the group stages.

At Zurich Airport on Friday morning the wife of one of our directors told me that we are going to win on Thursday and progress to the next round.

Her husband and and a fellow director both said that they hoped that we will get beaten on Thursday and able to concentrate on the Premier League which is where the money is.

I disagreed with them after a brilliant couple of days in Athens and where many fans have waited decades to see their team play.

It's all about priorities I guess?

I'd like to have heard the context behind the delivery from those two Directors, but on the face of it, a very poor state of affairs.

Had the same conversation flying back from Southampton with two other directors who must all think that we are stalking them but have all said the same thing.

Why can we not just all enjoy the moment?

[Royboyclaret]

Hysteria.

We are in Europe for the first time in a very long time with a very good chance of progressing to the group stages.

At Zurich Airport on Friday morning the wife of one of our directors told me that we are going to win on Thursday and progress to the next round.

Her husband and and a fellow director both said that they hoped that we will get beaten on Thursday and able to concentrate on the Premier League which is where the money is.

I disagreed with them after a brilliant couple of days in Athens and where many fans have waited decades to see their team play.

It's all about priorities I guess?

I'd like to have heard the context behind the delivery from those two Directors, but on the face of it, a very poor state of affairs.

Had the same conversation flying back from Southampton with two other directors who must all think that we are stalking them but have all said the same thing.

Why can we not just all enjoy the moment?

[joey13]

Last season, we had no pace up front, and hardly any creativity in midfield for long periods.

Exactly and apart from the 5 wins on the bounce results suffered

[TVC15]

Ok then why have we conceded 10 goals in 3 matches ?

Which is it then ?
30 game crisis or 3 game crisis ?

Because either way it looks like you are wrong.

Do you think it’s reasonable to say the defence has lost its confidence on the back of only 3 games ? - one of which was with a completely different defence ?

Do you think this defence lost its confidence in those 30 games ? That same 30 games where other than the last 3 we managed to maintain the 3rd or 4th (can remember exactly) best defence in the league. How could that possibly be the case when the season only lasts 38 games and you are talking about 27 of them ?

So which is it ?... because you have clearly mentioned this 30 games in the context of the start of the rot

[boatshed bill]

There is surely a sensible middle ground between "thank god we're not in the 4th tier" and "we should be pushing on from 7th in the table". The trouble is that the debate gets polarised at every turn, which is perhaps the OP's point.

There's always lots of chatter when folk remind others about the division 4 days about not placing the long term future of the club at risk. That's a valid point, but it ignores the fact that the future of the club is best served by maximising our opportunities for success in order to capture new/young supporters. To that end, we didn't do as much as we should have done in the summer to develop the squad and maximise the long-term advantage to the club of this golden period in our history. It won't last for ever, but there's no reason why it should end imminently and if it does, then to the extent its because the squad was short of numbers, then there'll be justifiable cause for recrimination.

On the other hand, luck plays a big part in where any of the 13 clubs below the established top 7 finish. We've undoubtedly been a bit unlucky with injuries in recent months and been a touch unlucky with the bounce of the ball generally. There's no one to be blamed for that and it needs to be separated out from the argument about recruitment.

Finally, and in any event all of this is premature. There's no reason why just because we've failed to win our opening 3 league games, we should be relegated this season. The core of the squad is strong and its experienced at this level. So all of this argument is a bit premature. 3 games isn't even a form guide, and folk are getting carried away with it. We can revisit all of this in November, when the table and our season has settled down a bit.

The thing is, Spice, that plenty of us enjoyed the lower-tier football experience. Too many now paint it as a period of doom and gloom, it wasn't all like that. The "orient game" was a big wake up call as to the possible demise of the club, a completely different matter to that of going to, and being able to enjoy a game of football. Of course this is only my opinion.

[joey13]

Which is it then ?
30 game crisis or 3 game crisis ?

Because either way it looks like you are wrong.

Do you think it’s reasonable to say the defence has lost its confidence on the back of only 3 games ? - one of which was with a completely different defence ?

Do you think this defence lost its confidence in those 30 games ? That same 30 games where other than the last 3 we managed to maintain the 3rd or 4th (can remember exactly) best defence in the league. How could that possibly be the case when the season only lasts 38 games and you are talking about 27 of them ?

So which is it ?... because you have clearly mentioned this 30 games in the context of the start of the rot

The 5 wins in 30 is a fact
Conceding 10 goals in 3 games is a fact , why have we conceded that many goals if it isn’t down to lacking confidence
What’s your view on the reason ?

[TVC15]

You are completely ignoring the question. We did not lose the other 25 games yet you seem to be intimating our defence lost its confidence during this period - or if you are not by definition how can you have a crisis in 2 league games ?

The reason we have conceded 10 goals is pretty logical to me.

Watford - mad first 5 mins in both half’s with one bad mistake from Lowton and 3 very good goals.
Olympiakos - second string defence against a seasoned European team who have beaten plenty of sides at home far bigger than us. Plus a very dodgy referee who wrongly sent a man off.
Fulham - a poor display all round against a team who went for it on the day and went for it in the transfer market.

Oh and btw we scored 4 goals in those 3 games and could have easily picked up a result in any one of them.

Do you think making mistakes in 3 games equates to losing confidence ?
Or are you still sticking with the 30 game nonsense ?

[claretspice]

The 5 wins in 30 is a fact
Conceding 10 goals in 3 games is a fact , why have we conceded that many goals if it isn’t down to lacking confidence
What’s your view on the reason ?

5 wins in 30 games is a fact only if you include a lot of non-league games. In most of these games we've played half a team at best - including the recent European games. Its a selective statistic and not a representative one. Over the last 30 league games I think we've won 9 games and taken 30-odd points.

10 goals from 3 games is also true, but again it involves including a game in which we've played a scratch back 4 and played 30 minutes with 10 men. 7 goals conceded in 2 games is admittedly itself an uncharacteristic statistic for this team, but these things happen. To an extent, its a feature of finding ourselves chasing a game from behind, which we're not that used to doing.

I don't doubt that this season may well be more of a struggle than last season was. But I think its far too early to write us off as relegation fodder and assume the sky will fall in. We haven't become a bad team, even if we are missing a few key players.

[Woody9229]

[quote="tybfc"]Hysteria.

We are in Europe for the first time in a very long time with a very good chance of progressing to the group stages.

At Zurich Airport on Friday morning the wife of one of our directors told me that we are going to win on Thursday and progress to the next round.

Her husband and and a fellow director both said that they hoped that we will get beaten on Thursday and able to concentrate on the Premier League which is where the money is.

Really? If this is true tybfc and I have no reason to doubt you, I am left wondering why more people are not picking up on this on this thread? Two Directors stating publicly they hope we get beaten on Thursday!! More discussion surely?

[BigChaCha]

And how would that have helped with our defensive displays in the last three games?

Do you honestly think conceding goals is just down to the back 4?

When you produce no go forward what's so ever, inviting teams to attack because you have no pace or creativity in midfield it puts added pressure on the defence.

When we had our best midfielders out last season we where hanging on for dear life for most games in that period, inviting wave after wave of pressure. With another season it wasn't rocket science that we would be worked out and needed to push onwards like the rest of the teams have done this summer.

The defensive issues this season have come after we "huffed and puffed" as SD put it, when we should of buried teams so your defence is going to come under pressure if you are not performing at the other end!

[Tall Paul]

Exactly and apart from the 5 wins on the bounce results suffered

Why are you excluding those 5 games when evaluating the results?

Apart from all the games we lost, the results have been fantastic.

[SGr]

Sick of hearing about 1987. 1987 should never have happened in the first place. We don’t come from the 4th division, we come from the 1st division - in which we were founder members and two time champions.

I know I’m in the minority here - but I hate the “little old Burnley” mentality. Punching about our weight financially, yes, but we are not the likes of Bournemouth and Swansea who started life at the bottom. 1987 should be remembered and respected, but not used as a constant excuse.

[boatshed bill]

That mindset took us down to Division 4

No, honestly it was the playing staff and management.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

No, honestly it was the playing staff and management.

True, boatshed bill, but you have to remember that we fans were all guilty because we supported the club all the way down from Division One to Division Four and then continued to support them all the way back. I suppose that that makes us 'Glory Hunters'

[boatshed bill]

True, boatshed bill, but you have to remember that we fans were all guilty because we supported the club all the way down from Division One to Division Four and then continued to support them all the way back. I suppose that that makes us 'Glory Hunters'

I can remember thinking things like "it's a bit of a rough patch" and "everything will be allright again soon" as we were sliding down the leagues,
but the thing I find hard to get over to our younger, if you like more TV orientated, fans is that some of the football was still enjoyable.
We have a problem now in that enjoyment of the game is rated by the clubs' status, I think.

[claretspice]

The thing is, Spice, that plenty of us enjoyed the lower-tier football experience. Too many now paint it as a period of doom and gloom, it wasn't all like that. The "orient game" was a big wake up call as to the possible demise of the club, a completely different matter to that of going to, and being able to enjoy a game of football. Of course this is only my opinion.

I understand that, but think that's besides the point, though.

There are lots of minority pastimes out there, and fair play to those that enjoy it. But truth is that if those pastimes can't attract new participants, then the existing participants get older, and eventually the overall number of participants declines to an unviable number.

We don't want Burnley Football Club to become like that and the more we can maximise the duration and success of our top flight stay, the more we can use that exposure to secure the long term future of the club. That's always been the positive view of pushing the boat out now, whilst we can.

But equally, we all need to accept that we can't sustain football at this level for ever, and we won't - but relegation, when it comes is neither the end of the world (as you rightly point out), nor (if we invest wisely) the end of our aspirations of playing at this level.

[boatshed bill]

I understand that, but think that's besides the point, though.

There are lots of minority pastimes out there, and fair play to those that enjoy it. But truth is that if those pastimes can't attract new participants, then the existing participants get older, and eventually the overall number of participants declines to an unviable number.

We don't want Burnley Football Club to become like that and the more we can maximise the duration and success of our top flight stay, the more we can use that exposure to secure the long term future of the club. That's always been the positive view of pushing the boat out now, whilst we can.

But equally, we all need to accept that we can't sustain football at this level for ever, and we won't - but relegation, when it comes is neither the end of the world (as you rightly point out), nor (if we invest wisely) the end of our aspirations of playing at this level.

Whilst agreeing with virtually all of that I don't see the boat getting pushed out very far any time soon

[joey13]

No, honestly it was the playing staff and management.

Many on here think all poor performances are caused by the fans

[Spijed]

And whatever you think of the board they have got a very good track record with managers.

They show loyalty to the manager, even giving a new contract to Brian Laws, but that aside, Coyle got us promoted, Eddie Howe got Bournemouth promoted after leaving us and SD has got us into Europe.

How many chairmen and directors at other clubs can claim to have a similar record of success when choosing a manager?

[boatshed bill]

And whatever you think of the board they have got a very good track record with managers.

They show loyalty to the manager, even giving a new contract to Brian Laws, but that aside, Coyle got us promoted, Eddie Howe got Bournemouth promoted after leaving us and SD has got us into Europe.

How many chairmen and directors at other clubs can claim to have a similar record of success when choosing a manager?

I don't know how old you are, Spijed, but our directors made some pretty poor decisions in the early 80s

[TVC15]

I don't know how old you are, Spijed, but our directors made some pretty poor decisions in the early 80s

Completely different board / set of directors in 80s.

[boatshed bill]

Completely different board / set of directors in 80s.

Exactly. The new board seems allright, they get the drinks in too.

[Spijed]

I don't know how old you are, Spijed, but our directors made some pretty poor decisions in the early 80s

I agree, but I was referring to our current set and that if we were either to get relegated or SD leave, or both, we'd be in good hands.

[boatshed bill]

I agree, but I was referring to our current set and that if we were either to get relegated or SD leave, or both, we'd be in good hands.

I doubt very much that we could find better.
I actually approve of the careful spending that many decry.