Danny Mills

[Shappie]

Have a listen to Joey Barton V Danny Mills. Not sure if it was talk sport or radio 5

[Guitargeorge]

Leeds are so big that at least three clubs will have to leave the Prem to make room for them.

[mdd2]

Similar to the 1970s when Malcolm Macdonald said Burnley should be asked to leave the first division to allow the big clubs in.

Leeds are such a big club by the way, they've spent 42 of their 92 seasons outside of the top flight.

How do we compare with that stat. We will not have been a top flight club for >50% of our time in the league system and to be honest I am surprised Weeds have such a good record. Is this our 120th season in the league with 55 in top flight?

[ClaretTony]

How do we compare with that stat. We will not have been a top flight club for >50% of our time in the league system and to be honest I am surprised Weeds have such a good record. Is this our 120th season in the league with 55 in top flight?

120 seasons

56 at level 1
46 at level 2
11 at level 3
7 at level 4

[Rileybobs]

120 seasons

56 at level 1
46 at level 2
11 at level 3
7 at level 4

Interesting that we’ve only spent 15% of our existence in the bottom two divisions yet some seem to think that League 1 is our natural level.

[TVC15]

Interesting that we’ve only spent 15% of our existence in the bottom two divisions yet some seem to think that League 1 is our natural level.

That’s probably more to do with the average age of current fans or people on this board.
If you looked at the stats over say the last 35 to 40 years then a good chunk of that is in the bottom 2 divisions - got to be at least 50% ?
Plus even the period of struggling to finish 16th in the Championship is light years away from what we have done in the last 2 or 3 years.

[Rileybobs]

That’s probably more to do with the average age of current fans or people on this board.
If you looked at the stats over say the last 35 to 40 years then a good chunk of that is in the bottom 2 divisions - got to be at least 50% ?
Plus even the period of struggling to finish 16th in the Championship is light years away from what we have done in the last 2 or 3 years.

Yeah I suppose. Just 18 seasons in the bottom two divisions is pretty remarkable though. Leeds have just started their 15th consecutive season outside the top flight so I’m not sure why the same generation of fans would see them as a bigger club.

[TVC15]

Fan base, size of city, size of ground etc
And winning the top division and having a decent run in champions league in the early 1990s

Bit different to winning league in 50s and being in Europe in early 60s.

I hate Leeds and their fans but let’s not pretend we are a bigger club than them - just a richer one

[Rileybobs]

Fan base, size of city, size of ground etc
And winning the top division and having a decent run in champions league in the early 1990s

Bit different to winning league in 50s and being in Europe in early 60s.

I hate Leeds and their fans but let’s not pretend we are a bigger club than them - just a richer one

Yes they are better supported, is that what makes them bigger? Does winning a title 25 years ago make a club bigger than one who won a title 50 years ago?

We are currently playing at a higher level and making obscene amounts of money. I don’t see how what Leeds did 25 years ago, or the fact that they have more fans makes them currently a bigger club than us. Unless of course clubs can’t get bigger or smaller and what has happened in the past defines their ‘size’.

[TVC15]

Sleeping giant is an overused term but apt for Leeds.
Not many teams have won the league and gone on to do well in the champions league in the last 30 years - half a dozen teams ?
It’s not something we will ever do.

We are a club who could never get 40k / 50k fans every week - Leeds are. It’s a major city and if the club got back in the Premier League then almost immediately they become a bigger club than us because they are a bigger draw for investment, managers, players etc. You can’t say that about a lot of clubs but Leeds do fall into that category that they could be back to being a top 6 or top 7 club and nobody will be surprised.

When Leeds are in the Premier League it’s no surprise to anyone - it’s still a surprise to a lot of people that we are in this league.

The amount of money you have right now is one way of defining the size of your club. I don’t really see many impartial football supporters using this as a definition though.

If you asked a 100 football fans which were the bigger team - Leeds or Burnley - I’d be surprised if many said Burnley and if they did it would be along the lines of “right now they are richer but......”

[tiger76]

Interesting that we’ve only spent 15% of our existence in the bottom two divisions yet some seem to think that League 1 is our natural level.

I'm not convinced in this day and age any club has a natural level,but ours would be top end Championship/lower Premier League in my opinion,based on history,attendances etc.

Take Bournemouth as an example it's only 10 years or so that their very existence as a League club,even their survival at all hung in the balance,now they are riding high near the top of the Premier League.

In another 10 years with the right investment and management,some of the clubs currently plying their trade in the lower reaches/non-league,could feasibly be established Premier League/Championship teams.

[Rileybobs]

Sleeping giant is an overused term but apt for Leeds.
Not many teams have won the league and gone on to do well in the champions league in the last 30 years - half a dozen teams ?
It’s not something we will ever do.

We are a club who could never get 40k / 50k fans every week - Leeds are. It’s a major city and if the club got back in the Premier League then almost immediately they become a bigger club than us because they are a bigger draw for investment, managers, players etc. You can’t say that about a lot of clubs but Leeds do fall into that category that they could be back to being a top 6 or top 7 club and nobody will be surprised.

When Leeds are in the Premier League it’s no surprise to anyone - it’s still a surprise to a lot of people that we are in this league.

The amount of money you have right now is one way of defining the size of your club. I don’t really see many impartial football supporters using this as a definition though.

If you asked a 100 football fans which were the bigger team - Leeds or Burnley - I’d be surprised if many said Burnley and if they did it would be along the lines of “right now they are richer but......”

I agree they are a ‘sleeping giant’, as much as I hate that term. They have the potential to be a big club again, but right now they’re not. They’re asleep. There’s a good number of clubs in the Championship and below who have the potential to be big, but I can’t see how that makes them bigger in the current state of things.

Your 100 football fans question is probably correct, although if you asked a 20 year old football fan from China they would probably never have heard of Leeds whereas we are currently a global name.

[ClaretTony]

Interesting that we’ve only spent 15% of our existence in the bottom two divisions yet some seem to think that League 1 is our natural level.

And all of that 15% - a total of 18 years - were between 1980 and 2000.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm not convinced in this day and age any club has a natural level,but ours would be top end Championship/lower Premier League in my opinion,based on history,attendances etc.

Take Bournemouth as an example it's only 10 years or so that their very existence as a League club,even their survival at all hung in the balance,now they are riding high near the top of the Premier League.

In another 10 years with the right investment and management,some of the clubs currently plying their trade in the lower reaches/non-league,could feasibly be established Premier League/Championship teams.

Its all about interpretation but what I take natural level to mean is that if you took away the outside money of investors and the huge gulf in TV money between divisions where would clubs level out at. For me Burnley would level out as a decent league 1 team pushing for the play offs each year.

If we keep the same owners and strategy once Dyche goes I think we'll drop out the Premier League within 3 years and once the parachute payments ends we'll struggle down the bottom of the Championship until we finally have a bad season and drop to league 1. Obviously we could find a new Coyle or new Dyche who gets us punching above our weight but eventually things will level out and that's where we are likely to be IMO

[TVC15]

And on that cheery note.......

[scouseclaret]

Sleeping giant is an overused term but apt for Leeds.
Not many teams have won the league and gone on to do well in the champions league in the last 30 years - half a dozen teams ?
It’s not something we will ever do.

We are a club who could never get 40k / 50k fans every week - Leeds are. It’s a major city and if the club got back in the Premier League then almost immediately they become a bigger club than us because they are a bigger draw for investment, managers, players etc. You can’t say that about a lot of clubs but Leeds do fall into that category that they could be back to being a top 6 or top 7 club and nobody will be surprised.

When Leeds are in the Premier League it’s no surprise to anyone - it’s still a surprise to a lot of people that we are in this league.

The amount of money you have right now is one way of defining the size of your club. I don’t really see many impartial football supporters using this as a definition though.

If you asked a 100 football fans which were the bigger team - Leeds or Burnley - I’d be surprised if many said Burnley and if they did it would be along the lines of “right now they are richer but......”

Another way of looking at it is that Leeds - biggest one-club city in the country - are the biggest underachievers in the country. The potential is huge but they’ve been out of the top flight for so long, I doubt anybody really misses them.

So, major under-achievers or “punching above your weight”. Personally I’m proud to be associated with the latter.

[tiger76]

Its all about interpretation but what I take natural level to mean is that if you took away the outside money of investors and the huge gulf in TV money between divisions where would clubs level out at. For me Burnley would level out as a decent league 1 team pushing for the play offs each year.

If we keep the same owners and strategy once Dyche goes I think we'll drop out the Premier League within 3 years and once the parachute payments ends we'll struggle down the bottom of the Championship until we finally have a bad season and drop to league 1. Obviously we could find a new Coyle or new Dyche who gets us punching above our weight but eventually things will level out and that's where we are likely to be IMO

Well for most of the 20th century,Burnley yo-yo'ed between the then division 1 and division 2,it was only when the maximum wage was abolished that small town clubs like us,Rovers and Preston struggled to compete regularly at the highest level.

In the modern era if we where to suffer relegation,it will be hard to bounce back,given the amount of Championship clubs that have sugar daddies,that's why it's vital to maintain Premier status for as long as possible.

[TVC15]

To be honest scouse that’s probably my favourite way of looking at it !
Biggest club doing the shi-ttest.
Sunderland have just started the journey to take their crown.

[FactualFrank]

The amount of money you have right now is one way of defining the size of your club. I don’t really see many impartial football supporters using this as a definition though.

There's no individual way to define which club is bigger.

Burnley are in the Premier League, so one could say we are bigger than any club outside it. I tried to explain this to a Sheffield Wednesday fan, but he couldn't get his head around it. He then kept saying because club A beat club B, then club A are the bigger club. Even his bum chum could see my point, but he just couldn't grasp it.

There is no algorithm that exists which is universally agreed upon, which determines which club is bigger. There's MANY which people will try and use to back their opinion up as fact, but they can all be counteracted. Unless of course a club trumps the other club in every single way possible.

[TVC15]

Frank living nicely up to his nom de plume - factual as ever.

You are of course correct.

My own personal favourite definition of the biggest club is a complicated algorithm based on the number of cobbled streets multiplied by annual TV income multiplied by years since the club was formed.

[dsr]

There's a website of UK towns and cities, which has a page listing the Premier and Football League clubs in order of the size of the twon they come from. Source - 2011 census.

The three cities immediately above us are Stevenage, Chesterfield, Grimsby. The three immediately below us are Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Bury. That's the sort of level of club that in theory we should be competing against; we've always "punched above our weight" (except in 1980-2000).

[Devils_Advocate]

Well for most of the 20th century,Burnley yo-yo'ed between the then division 1 and division 2,it was only when the maximum wage was abolished that small town clubs like us,Rovers and Preston struggled to compete regularly at the highest level.

In the modern era if we where to suffer relegation,it will be hard to bounce back,given the amount of Championship clubs that have sugar daddies,that's why it's vital to maintain Premier status for as long as possible.

Totally agree and its why we should be thankful with how unbelievably good the last 10 years have been. Id go a step further than your point and say if you took all the sugar daddys money away and teams had to rely on their fan base to generate money to sign players and pay their wages I reckon theyd be 40-50 teams with more money and able to sign better players and thats why all other things being equal we'd find our level in League 1

One positive would be the gap between all the leagues would be much tighter and find a top manager or make a few brilliant signings and you could easily be jumping up a division or two

Edit: to be fair I may have under valued our support and maybe low end Championship / top end league 1 is about our natural level without any sugar daddies

[ashtonlongsider]

I think it's a bit of an insult naming Burnley. Possibly on paper Leeds are bigger than at least half the teams in the PL. However that didn't stop us signing 2 of their star players last season and we didn't appear to have too many problems signing Vydra after Leeds protracted bid to sign him.

[cricketfieldclarets]

There's a website of UK towns and cities, which has a page listing the Premier and Football League clubs in order of the size of the twon they come from. Source - 2011 census.

The three cities immediately above us are Stevenage, Chesterfield, Grimsby. The three immediately below us are Scunthorpe, Mansfield, Bury. That's the sort of level of club that in theory we should be competing against; we've always "punched above our weight" (except in 1980-2000).

Not strictly true. Theres a whole host of other things to consider like demographics etc